Captain Undrainable!!!!!!

[Balabanto]

This is an interesting construction of which people may wish to be aware. Inherent is now +1/4. A power cannot be drained or suppressed, etc.

 

However...Unified Power is -1/4, which links all powers together for the purposes of what can be drained together.

 

So...effectively, for no points, or close to it, every character is immune to drain.

 

There are several choices that I can see here. A limitation that is not a limitation is worth no points, however....

 

1) Inherent powers may never be unified.

 

2) Inherent is now a +1/2

 

3) Drain and Suppress are separate for the purposes of Inherent.

 

4) Drain is effectively ineffective. Remove from game.

 

Personally, I just won't let my players do this. Your mileage may vary.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Captain Undrainable!!!!!!

 

Inherent was +1/4 in 5E too. In fact THE TEXT HASN'T CHANGED.

 

Inherent and Unified are essentially mutually exclusive Powers.

 

I wouldn't allow Inherent on a Power in an EC in 5th Edition either.

 

Conclusion: Deny Construct without needing to change rules, be alarmed or use seven exclamation points.

 

Congratulations you've found a non-issue.

[Sociotard]

Re: Captain Undrainable!!!!!!

 

Inherent is already a stop-sign power, which means GMs are supposed to look at it closely for cases of imbalance. The case you mention would qualify. (and I would choose option 1)

[Sean Waters]

Re: Captain Undrainable!!!!!!

 

This is an interesting construction of which people may wish to be aware. Inherent is now +1/4. A power cannot be drained or suppressed, etc.

 

However...Unified Power is -1/4, which links all powers together for the purposes of what can be drained together.

 

So...effectively, for no points, or close to it, every character is immune to drain.

 

There are several choices that I can see here. A limitation that is not a limitation is worth no points, however....

 

1) Inherent powers may never be unified.

 

2) Inherent is now a +1/2

 

3) Drain and Suppress are separate for the purposes of Inherent.

 

4) Drain is effectively ineffective. Remove from game.

 

Personally, I just won't let my players do this. Your mileage may vary.

 

 

Good one. Go for it.

 

Not really:

 

1. Only allow Inherent where it is appropriate, which is not that often. You are actually an alien with rocky skin (as opposed to someone who creates a rocky carapace as part of their powers)? Inherent? Not necessarily - could a power be used to weaken (or harden) the defences, even though the rocky apprearance remains - if so then it is adjustable, so inherent can not apply. I might allow, for example, a silicon creature that does not breathe to take 'inherent' on 'LS: Self COntained Breathing' because breathing is meaningless to that character.

 

2. As has been pointed out, you 'Unified' makes you more vulnerable to (negative) adjustment, 'Inherent' doesn't allow you to be adjusted (so to speak) so they are mutually exclusive.

 

I'd not allow both on the same power.

[Balabanto]

Re: Captain Undrainable!!!!!!

 

Inherent was +1/4 in 5E too. In fact THE TEXT HASN'T CHANGED.

 

Inherent and Unified are essentially mutually exclusive Powers.

 

I wouldn't allow Inherent on a Power in an EC in 5th Edition either.

 

Conclusion: Deny Construct without needing to change rules, be alarmed or use seven exclamation points.

 

Congratulations you've found a non-issue.

 

Actually, in 5th edition, this was not an issue, because an EC was not a power advantage. Instead, it was a framework with collective drainability, which meant that you just couldn't put Inherent on powers in an EC, because of the "Essence EC" rules. The moment that you made everything intrinsic to the character, it couldn't be put in an EC. The difference is, in 6e, it isn't clearly stated.

 

Obviously, no one with any common sense would ever do this, but from a textual perspective, rules as written, it is POSSIBLE that someone might attempt to be this big a jackass.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Captain Undrainable!!!!!!

 

1. Only allow Inherent where it is appropriate' date=' which is not that often. You are actually an alien with rocky skin (as opposed to someone who creates a rocky carapace as part of their powers)? Inherent? Not necessarily - could a power be used to weaken (or harden) the defences, even though the rocky apprearance remains - if so then it is adjustable, so inherent can not apply. I might allow, for example, a silicon creature that does not breathe to take 'inherent' on 'LS: Self COntained Breathing' because breathing is meaningless to that character.[/quote']

 

An excellent point. All humans have Running, Leaping, Swimming and characteristics, but none of them are Inherent. In the source material, how often are water breathing characters drained of their ability to breathe water? Very little is truly "inherent".

 

2. As has been pointed out' date=' you 'Unified' makes you more vulnerable to (negative) adjustment, 'Inherent' doesn't allow you to be adjusted (so to speak) so they are mutually exclusive.[/quote']

 

Let's assume it really fits. The power belongs in UP and should be inherent. Let's assume it, just for the moment.

 

What happens when someone tries to Drain the Inherent power? Well, the Inherent power stays unchanged - that's what Inherent means. But I would suggest all the other Unified Powers get drained anyway.

 

The simple fact is that Unified Power can be abused. Put it on your 250 points of Fire Powers and save 50 points. Buy 30 points of Power Defense and you have 20 points left over. Book legal? Sure. GM accepted? Unlikely.

 

There's very little in the rules that cannot be abused. I like the 6e blurb about assuming mature players and GM's who are not using the rules to beat the system, but to create interesting and balanced characters. Balabanto, perhaps this smalll piece of text needs to be highlighted for your problem players.

 

IOW, if the jackass has to look that hard for something he can abuse, he's really not trying very hard...

[ghost-angel]

Re: Captain Undrainable!!!!!!

 

Actually, in 5th edition, this was not an issue, because an EC was not a power advantage. Instead, it was a framework with collective drainability, which meant that you just couldn't put Inherent on powers in an EC, because of the "Essence EC" rules. The moment that you made everything intrinsic to the character, it couldn't be put in an EC. The difference is, in 6e, it isn't clearly stated.

 

Obviously, no one with any common sense would ever do this, but from a textual perspective, rules as written, it is POSSIBLE that someone might attempt to be this big a jackass.

 

Wow you misread everything.

 

"collective drainability" of an EC; "collective drainability" of Unified.

 

Looks the same to me.

 

Also, you could absolutely put Inherent on a Power in an EC; just add 0END;Persistent;Always On - JUST LIKE INHERENT SAYS.

 

Sorry, you're wrong. very wrong. and alarmist.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Captain Undrainable!!!!!!

 

....................

 

 

Let's assume it really fits. The power belongs in UP and should be inherent. Let's assume it, just for the moment.

 

What happens when someone tries to Drain the Inherent power? Well, the Inherent power stays unchanged - that's what Inherent means. But I would suggest all the other Unified Powers get drained anyway.

 

.................

 

 

Oh I like that! It is a limitation on this power that stings other powers It would need an eyeball, but if I do see it, I'm not longer dismissing it out of hand.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Captain Undrainable!!!!!!

 

.................

 

Sorry, you're wrong. very wrong. and alarmist.

 

 

I might adopt this (still in quotes) as my sig

[ghost-angel]

Re: Captain Undrainable!!!!!!

 

You know what gets me about this thread, it's the six (6!!!!!!) exclamation points in the thread title. I can't take the OP seriously with a title like that. I really can't.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Captain Undrainable!!!!!!

 

You know what gets me about this thread' date=' it's the six (6!!!!!!) exclamation points in the thread title. I can't take the OP seriously with a title like that. I really can't.[/quote']

 

You are becoming a grumpy codger; I quite agree about the excessive punctuation.

 

You qualify for GC membership. I'll send you the badge. Now repeat the GC Club oath after me: "BAH! Humbug! I'm not reading out some stupid oath, I've got far better things to do with my time, unlike some people I could mention..."

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Captain Undrainable!!!!!!

 

"BAH! Humbug! I'm not reading out some stupid oath' date=' I've got far better things to do with my time, unlike some people I could mention...[/i']"

 

BAH! Humbug! I'm not reading out some stupid oath, I've got far better things to do with my time, unlike some people I could mention...

 

HEY, YOU! GET OFF MY LAWN!

[megaplayboy]

Re: Captain Undrainable!!!!!!

 

If you have spent 100 points on physical stats, making them Inherent costs 25 points. I'd also rule Inherent and Unified Power to be mutually exclusive, precisely because they nullify each other. For 25 points you could buy 20 points of hardened or impenetrable power defense instead, which is probably at or above the PowD max for most mid-level games. So you're probably better off just buying PowD.

 

It might make for an interesting logistical problem if an 80 STR megavillain can't have their STR suppressed or drained by "dampener shackles", though.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Captain Undrainable!!!!!!

 

If you have spent 100 points on physical stats, making them Inherent costs 25 points. I'd also rule Inherent and Unified Power to be mutually exclusive, precisely because they nullify each other. For 25 points you could buy 20 points of hardened or impenetrable power defense instead, which is probably at or above the PowD max for most mid-level games. So you're probably better off just buying PowD.

 

It might make for an interesting logistical problem if an 80 STR megavillain can't have their STR suppressed or drained by "dampener shackles", though.

 

Guess the Gadgeteer will need to build dampener shackles Mk II. These also reduce STR to 10, but they do it by Transforming the target into an identical character with 10 STR (recovery condition: be loose from the shackles for 5 minutes). May as well make the Transform double penetrating in case of 20 points of impenetrable power defense.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Captain Undrainable!!!!!!

 

Guess the Gadgeteer will need to build dampener shackles Mk II. These also reduce STR to 10' date=' but they do it by Transforming the target into an identical character with 10 STR (recovery condition: be loose from the shackles for 5 minutes). May as well make the Transform double penetrating in case of 20 points of impenetrable power defense.[/quote']

 

Hmm. As a GM(heck, as a player, too) I'd want to see the sfx description on that first.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Captain Undrainable!!!!!!

 

Hmm. As a GM(heck' date=' as a player, too) I'd want to see the sfx description on that first. [/quote']

 

Why, it causes the shackled target to be reduced to the strength of an ordinary person, of course!

[megaplayboy]

Re: Captain Undrainable!!!!!!

 

Why' date=' it causes the shackled target to be reduced to the strength of an ordinary person, of course![/quote']

 

By using "normalizing radions", I assume.

[mattingly]

Re: Captain Undrainable!!!!!!

 

Hmm. As a GM(heck' date=' as a player, too) I'd want to see the sfx description on that first. [/quote']

They're built from an alloy of silver, cold iron, kryptonite, and melted Happy Fun Ball.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Captain Undrainable!!!!!!

 

By using "normalizing radions"' date=' I assume.[/quote']

 

I don't see where it's any easier to come up with sfx for the Suppression build. Both reduce STR. The Transform version could just as easily Transform the target into someone with a fixed STR reduction.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Captain Undrainable!!!!!!

 

I don't see where it's any easier to come up with sfx for the Suppression build. Both reduce STR. The Transform version could just as easily Transform the target into someone with a fixed STR reduction.

 

Fair point.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Captain Undrainable!!!!!!

 

It is all rubber science but some of the science is more rubbery than necessary.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Captain Undrainable!!!!!!

 

It is all rubber science but some of the science is more rubbery than necessary.

 

I did once come up with a semi-credible rationalization for ultra-tough skin--an evolved dermal layer that is composed of a flexible organic analog to carbon nano-fiber. Under stress or in instaneous response to moderate pressure, the outer layer of skin also takes on this quality and hardness. If the muscle and bone also has this nano-fiberish quality, then you can posit a decent measure of superstrength, too. Then you just need to figure out where they're getting their energy from.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Captain Undrainable!!!!!!

 

It is all rubber science but some of the science is more rubbery than necessary.

 

"Look, Skinner, See what it became?"

"Superball," Skinner said.

"Skinner-san?"

"You go and f- bounce it, Scooter." He closed his eyes, "Bounce it high."

William Gibson "Virtual Light"

 

Nothing wrong with some rubber.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Captain Undrainable!!!!!!

 

I did once come up with a semi-credible rationalization for ultra-tough skin--an evolved dermal layer that is composed of a flexible organic analog to carbon nano-fiber. Under stress or in instaneous response to moderate pressure' date=' the outer layer of skin also takes on this quality and hardness. If the muscle and bone also has this nano-fiberish quality, then you can posit a decent measure of superstrength, too. Then you just need to figure out where they're getting their energy from.[/quote']

 

Other dimensions. You get the energy from other dimensions. Converted by evolved cell organelles (or analogues) that have replaced mitochondria in SPBs they can chanel energy from the universal and usually undetectable, to our limited senses Orgone Energy. That explains why the universe actually works (we call it 'dark matter': it is an observed but unexplainable discrepancy in reality). The evolved organelles 'power' the apparently miraculous feats and provide the energy for awesome manifestations of Orgone Energy, which subsequently bleeds back through the dimensional circuit to increase the flow of energy through the whole system. The manifestation of SPBs is actually increasing the rate of omniversal evolution to an alarming rate.

 

Apparently.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Captain Undrainable!!!!!!

 

Or there is the 'High Energy Electron Shell' theory, first observed in hamsters, which states that, under certain circumstances, atoms can be persuaded to promote electrons to shells that are not there. This actually allows for the storage and release of fantastic amounts of energy in mundane matter.