6E Telekinetic Strength

[Shinobi Killfis]

So as in previous editions telekinesis costs 3 for 2 points of strength. Now while it feels balanced on the usefulness scale it is ranged and somewhat indirect strength, when you bump into AP limits it feels really weak in lifting power. Lets say you were standard superheroic and had a 80 point AP guideline. Your GM is feeling generous and lets you have 81 points or a 54 Str telekinesis. You can almost lift 50 tons, meanwhile mr muscles has an 80 strength and can lift 1.5 killatons. When it comes to the Damage and dice I get the balance but 50 tons compared to 1.5 killatons just feels total weaksauce in comparison.

 

Now if the bruiser puts himselft at 60 strength because he wants to be in the 12 dice of damge area then hey you are in the same ballpark of lifting strength. But all else being equal you look like a wuss when it comes to lifitng power. Any suggestions from people more familiar with creative rules taking on how to make a telekinetic with "Tons" of lifting strength while not really caring about the daamage output.

 

I'm not sure if this works, but I've thoguht of taking Extra Limbs(infitnite-telekinetic contrructs), stretching, does not cross interveining space, and indirect to some level) Then just take a bunch of strength defined as telekinteic strength. I don't know how these capabilites work together with AP limits though.

 

Side note: 6e looks sweet, I really love all the rule changes i have noticed so far. The layout and art are top notch as well.

[Steve Long]

Re: 6E Telekinetic Strength

 

Thanx for the kind words!

 

Since you seem to be looking for ideas and input, I've moved this to the Discussion board so anyone who wants to can offer a suggestion or an opinion.

[mayapuppies]

Re: 6E Telekinetic Strength

 

There's always

Telekinesis (80 STR) (120 Active Points); Limited Power (Only For Lifting Purposes; -1)

[Hyper-Man]

Re: 6E Telekinetic Strength

 

Short answer - don't use hard caps.

 

Long answer - Allow the Telekinetic to exceed some caps but keep other stats closer to normal.

 

Take a look at these versions of Superman and Green Lantern & his Power Ring as an example.

 

Superman can get up to a 75 STR. He can perform a 25d6 Move Through (not that he could hit anything smaller than a barn doing it).

 

Green Lantern's Ring essentially gives him access to a 90 active point VPP. With it, he has up to an 18d6 EB or 60 STR TK (but he still only has 'human range' 40 END). Just a little over 1 Turn of power use at full Active points without applying the Reduced END Advantage will quickly have him burning STUN instead of END to use the Ring.

 

Code vs. Killing also helps mitigate the otherwise very high damage potential of both of these characters.

[Doc Samson]

Re: 6E Telekinetic Strength

 

I used to be a true believer in AP caps but 6th edition (Growth is one reason why, for example) has caused us to go back to a "Rule of X" format. As the GM, I have to take a harder look at characters during creation but with the extra work my players are able to use more builds than they previously could (as you pointed out 50 STR TK is not equal to 75 STR in combat).

[Sean Waters]

Re: 6E Telekinetic Strength

 

Ranged (indirect) STR is more useful than non-ranged STR, so it will cost more.

 

You can ignore point caps, which seems like a fine idea, so long as you monitor usefulness: the point is that Mr Muscles wants to be the strongest there is: your TK matching him AND being useable at range and through walls is going to make him want to go home crying.

 

Usually it is not lift capacity that people complain of - it is damage capacity.

 

I've let people in the past buy extra EB to add to their TK STR damage, and that has worked. Your Hulk is still stronger than your Great and Powerful Turtle, but they can both dish out the damage on a par.

 

(You can also put an EB in a MP, but that means switching off your TK, which may be a bad idea. You can buy TK and EB unified (or in an EC as was) but that can get very expensive.)

[Killer Shrike]

Re: 6E Telekinetic Strength

 

My advice is to use good judgment, not caps, unless the caps are serving to enforce an intended tone. I don't use caps for standard supers at all, but I do require justifications for abilities based on shtick / concept; overall I tend to pressure abilities towards a happy medium ground but still allowing for characters to shine within their concept.

 

 

If you are a player, and not the GM, then here's some more tactical advice:

 

Buy a base TK power outside of any framework up to, or five points below, the AP cap. This is your character's standard TK. You may or may not want to apply some modifiers.

 

Buy a TK multipower with a brute force slot of just extra STR, a fine manip slot, and an affects porous slot all defined to add to the base TK power. If the GM allows Naked Advantages you can also take some slots that apply useful Advantages like 0 END or AoE 1hex to your base TK. This will give you flexibility. You don't want to set off any flags, so keep the MP's reserve modest -- 1/2 the AP limit should allow you to squeeze by without alarming anyone. You might throw a 'requires a TK Power Skill Roll' lim, or Extra Time, or something along those lines on the MP to reduce its cost and to allow the argument that it represents a conditional boost vs a always available baseline. This should allow you to get your TK STR within "brick" range and give you some options. Use experience points to boost the MP instead of the base TK.

 

You're paying for the base TK outside of a framework, and if you structure the MP correctly it should be somewhat limited. This gives you a strong moral high ground to negotiate from with a hidebound GM who blindly applies a cap sans discretionary judgment on the worst case scenario, and the character should look about right to a more reasonable GM without further discussion. If your GM is more fast and loose, you can compensate on the high end by making the TK's reserve larger to start off with.

[Bloodstone]

Re: 6E Telekinetic Strength

 

Now if the bruiser puts himselft at 60 strength because he wants to be in the 12 dice of damge area then hey you are in the same ballpark of lifting strength. But all else being equal you look like a wuss when it comes to lifitng power. Any suggestions from people more familiar with creative rules taking on how to make a telekinetic with "Tons" of lifting strength while not really caring about the daamage output.

 

First off, I would say that standard STR is a bit more limited than TK STR, so I'm ok with the Brick having a considerable edge in raw lifting over the TK user.

 

However, when I have needed vast amounts of TK lifting, I have usually purchased TK alone (typically with Fine Manipulation) and then had extra TK STR on the side. This extra STR would have limitations like Affects Whole Object, Concentration, Extra Time and/or Increased Endurance.

 

So, with an 80 pt limit, I might try for something like this:

 

64 Telekinesis (35 STR), Fine Manipulation, Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) (80 Active Points); Unified Power (-1/4) - END=3

 

27 Telekinesis (+40 STR) (60 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x2 END; -1/2), Unified Power (-1/4), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4), Extra Time (Full Phase, Only to Activate, -1/4) - END=12

 

Total cost: 91

 

It's "only" 75 STR and is a bit more expensive than buying 80 STR straight up, but it's got a lot of advantages that normal STR just can't cover, the least of which being the range and indirect nature of the powers.

 

If you have an TK Tricks MP, you can easily shove the extra TK in there to save points.

 

Obviously, that will all be pending GM approval.

 

EDIT: looks like KS beat me to the punch!

[prestidigitator]

Re: 6E Telekinetic Strength

 

If you're going to impose a maximum, consider imposing it on DCs of damage/effect rather than Active Points. With a 16 DC maximum, your TK will still be limited to 10-11d6 of damage without Advantages that affect damage, but you can actually buy much more than that for lifting and other purposes. A nice GM might even allow you to put a Limitation on the extra TK to reflect the fact that it can't increase damage, thus giving you a bit of a break on the cost because of the decreased benefit.

[Sean Waters]

Re: 6E Telekinetic Strength

 

50 Strength is pretty powerful stuff. What is the idea behind the character?

[Shinobi Killfis]

Re: 6E Telekinetic Strength

 

For my first character for 6E I wanted to go with a basic Telekinetic. Strength, forcefields, flight, and a EB. I was using Jean Grey back during the X-Factor days as inspiration. Like I said I get the utility and balance side of things to some degree, but given how weight scales it quickly gets to a point where Telekinesis looks really weak in comparison.

 

Initially I wanted to keep it simple as I learn the differences in this edition, but I bumped into this issue. While I expect the strong guy to be stronger I wasn't envisioning 25 tons compared to 1.5 kilotons weaker.

 

Not that it relates to this character but I can't get autofire to ever work effectively either without either gimicking the system hard or using way too many AP. My attempts at a Gambit character throw mutliple cards as a special effect not as an actual autofire attack. Reducing the Endurance to a bearable level ends up making the damage so weak that it bounces off all defenses and doesn't even really hurt many viper agents much, or it ends up costing a whole heck of a lot and isn't much more effective than a basic 12d6 attack. I should make a new thread for autofire, but it can wait until I have to deal with it.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: 6E Telekinetic Strength

 

re: effective use of Autofire

 

Take a look at my version of Green Arrow in my sig below.

He has a 60 Active point Multipower where nearly all slots have Charges (which takes care of 0 END). He also has a Ranged Martial Arts package that can increase the damage to those 'arrow' slots that have the Autofire Advantage. The character is also built to take advantage of the 'Ranged Sweep'/Rapid Attack rules. The sfx of his Autofire arrows is that he can grab and knock up to 3 at a time for one bow-pull. Rapid Attack actually involves separate bow pulls.

 

Hopefully something like this could be 'ported over to a Gambit build.

[Shinobi Killfis]

Re: 6E Telekinetic Strength

 

re: effective use of Autofire

 

Take a look at my version of Green Arrow in my sig below.

He has a 60 Active point Multipower where nearly all slots have Charges (which takes care of 0 END). He also has a Ranged Martial Arts package that can increase the damage to those 'arrow' slots that have the Autofire Advantage. The character is also built to take advantage of the 'Ranged Sweep'/Rapid Attack rules. The sfx of his Autofire arrows is that he can grab and knock up to 3 at a time for one bow-pull. Rapid Attack actually involves separate bow pulls.

 

Hopefully something like this could be 'ported over to a Gambit build.

 

Yeah, I've been able to work it with charges. But for any power based character where charges don't make much sense it just doesn't work very well. With the same 60 point multipower you either have 6D6 1/2 end or 8d6 and blow through wads of endurance. 6d6 bounses off all opponents in the same ballpark and doesn't really jack up agents unless you hit with most or all of the shots. So you end up having XD6 NNd, area of effect, 0 end just so it does something and it ends up frequently doing too much. Frustrating, but like I said I can just call the multiple shots a special effect and go from there.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: 6E Telekinetic Strength

 

Another method would be to put the Autofire Advantage on the Multipower Reserve as a whole (This means that all slots in the Multipower must contain powers that Autofire is a legal Advantage).

 

example:

 

34 He's a Card Shark: Multipower, 62-point reserve, all slots Autofire (3 shots; Note that less than 3 shots can be used as well; +1/4) (77 Active Points); all slots OIF (small objects of opportunity (like playing cards); -1/2), Restrainable (Needs to be able to throw objects; -1/2), Range Based On Strength (-1/4) - END=

3f 1) Blast 10d6 (vs. PD), Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) (62 Active Points) - END=2

3f 2) Blast 8d6 (vs. PD), Double Knockback (+1/2) (60 Active Points) - END=6

 

Combine with 10-20 points worth of Ranged Martial Arts Maneuvers and DC's and you've got a pretty effective 'Gambit' attack multipower.

[Sean Waters]

Re: 6E Telekinetic Strength

 

You are never going to get near to 'normal' STR with TK STR simply because TK STR costs 150% of normal STR, because it is more useful: it does stuff normal STR can not do.

 

I say 'never going to get near' - that is not true; you can spend 150% of the points and you are golden.

 

That will probably pop any point caps you may have - as you may have gathered, the consensus is that point caps are at best viewed as a guidleline, or maybe ignored altogether: the really important thing is whether the character works as part of that game.

 

I don't now how powerful Jean Grey was when she was in X Factor (in fact I hadn't realised she was in X Factor), but she is a monstrously powerful archetype for a starting character.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: 6E Telekinetic Strength

 

Here are some TK based characters for your possible amusement:

Harrier

Justice

Vesper

Ascension

 

This is a gravity based character, but he's got TK based effects:

Gravitic

[Beast]

Re: 6E Telekinetic Strength

 

you could go with a Blast power based on TK force to get up to a 16DC damage

and have both in a multipower

[tesuji]

Re: 6E Telekinetic Strength

 

i tend to use dc limits not ap limits. so a tk character and a brick character can get to 60 strength. the tk guy simply pays more because he has his as 90 ap tk. but he also has advantages in ranges etc.

 

then again the brick has 30 pts to spend elsewhere.

[prestidigitator]

Re: 6E Telekinetic Strength

 

i tend to use dc limits not ap limits. so a tk character and a brick character can get to 60 strength. the tk guy simply pays more because he has his as 90 ap tk. but he also has advantages in ranges etc.

 

then again the brick has 30 pts to spend elsewhere.

 

In 6E, DC limits will keep the TK at fewer dice of damage than Str. DCs are literally now measured by the number of Active Points in the power, ignoring any Advantages that do not affect damage. So if you've got a "hard" 12 DC limit, that's 60 Str (12d6) or 40 TK Str (8d6). Either one could have Reduced Endurance on it without needing to reduce the number of dice though.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: 6E Telekinetic Strength

 

In 6E' date=' DC limits will keep the TK at fewer dice of damage than Str. DCs are literally now measured by the number of Active Points in the power, ignoring any Advantages that do not affect damage. So if you've got a "hard" 12 DC limit, that's 60 Str (12d6) or 40 TK Str (8d6). Either one could have [i']Reduced Endurance[/i] on it without needing to reduce the number of dice though.

 

I thought that DC's were only pro-rated when adding damage from weapons and/or Advantaged HA's & HKA's. You're saying there is a section of 6e that specifically mentions TK DC's as well?

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6E Telekinetic Strength

 

In 6E' date=' DC limits will keep the TK at fewer dice of damage than Str. DCs are literally now measured by the number of Active Points in the power, ignoring any Advantages that do not affect damage. So if you've got a "hard" 12 DC limit, that's 60 Str (12d6) or 40 TK Str (8d6). Either one could have [i']Reduced Endurance[/i] on it without needing to reduce the number of dice though.

 

No - Damage Classes are Damage Classes and Active Points are Active Points.

 

DCs are measured as APs for Damage Adding purposes only. And then only if Advantages are involved.

 

40 STR TK is going to produce 8 Damage Classes and 60 Active Points. Just like before.

[prestidigitator]

Re: 6E Telekinetic Strength

 

No - Damage Classes are Damage Classes and Active Points are Active Points.

 

DCs are measured as APs for Damage Adding purposes only. And then only if Advantages are involved.

 

40 STR TK is going to produce 8 Damage Classes and 60 Active Points. Just like before.

 

I don't think so.

 

The Damage Class (“DC”) of an attack provides a way to do this. An attack’s DC is based on the number of Active Points in it divided by 5. Thus, a Blast 3d6 and Ranged Killing Attack 1d6 (each with 15 Active Points) are both Damage Class 3 — or, in more game-oriented terms, each has 3 DCs.

...

The basic rule for Damage Classes is: 1 DC equals 5 Active Points in the Power. Thus, a power with 45 Active Points has 9 DCs.

...

Each DC remains equal to 5 Active Points, so to figure out how many DCs each dice of damage is worth, you must determine the Active Point cost of 1d6 worth of the Power. To do this, multiply the cost of 1d6 of the Power by the value of all Advantages that directly affect how the victim takes damage (see below).

 

For TK, 2d6 of damage costs 15 points, which is 3 DCs (7.5 Active Points per DC). I don't know how you could get more straightforward than that. By the way, that's in the "Determining Damage" section, not the "Adding Damage" section (6E2/C&A pp. 99+).

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6E Telekinetic Strength

 

5ER p403 - Exact Same Wording.

 

It hasn't changed one iota. No one I know will count 60AP TK as 12DCs. Because it doesn't DO 12DCs in Damage. Using that formula then a 40STR TK (60 AP) will do 12D6 Damage.

 

So, can I do 12D6 with my 40STR TK in your games? awesome.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6E Telekinetic Strength

 

TK is very much a special case type of thing, to expand further on the topic.

 

It does Normal Damage, like Energy Blast or Strength. Which means the STR Bought almost always equates to the Damage Classes, not the Active Points of TK.

 

Think of it - if one really must - as a series of Advantages that don't add to DCs. Because pretty much anyone will tell you that 8D6 Normal Damage is 8DCs, not 12.

[Shinobi Killfis]

Re: 6E Telekinetic Strength

 

I noticed under the characteristic power it gave an example of Strength just for lifting at a -4 limitation. Or at least I think it says that, the iphone isn't to great for reading PDFs. For TK would you think that would be the same limit. I don't know why, but it doesn't seem as limiting to me when its at range.