Sean Waters Posted November 3, 2009 Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 Walking the dog...you know the form... So, I was thinking about the parallels between mental and physical characteristics. Then I got to thinking: Strength is how much force we can apply to the world. The closest mental parallel is Presence. Dexterity is how we can move around and react to the world. The closest parallel is Intelligence. Constitution is how well we can cope with the traumas the world throws at us. The closest parallel is Ego. Looked at that way, we should generally not be using PRE defensively - that would be the role of Ego, and we should not be using Ego offensively - to break out of mental entangles and such - that would be the role of PRE. Also we should probably use INT for working out combat order for mental actions. So, not a particularly profound insight, but an interesting slant on the use of characteristics nonetheless. Any thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naanomi Posted November 3, 2009 Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 Re: PRE and EGO World of Darkness follows that system... you have a Power, Finesse, and Resistance score for each of Physical, Social, and Mental... each with similar roles (and rolls). PRE is the only social stat, and doesn't seem to have much of a Mental Role anymore, though that certainly could change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
director13 Posted November 3, 2009 Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 Re: PRE and EGO I had similar thoughts, but because of 5e ECV calcs swapped where you have EGO and INT. Then I had some runoff thoughts about Interaction skills as Combat Skill Levels with particular maneuvers (PRE dice for effect). I never did get what the results would come out of (social STUN and BODY) figured out, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warp9 Posted November 4, 2009 Report Share Posted November 4, 2009 Re: PRE and EGO Walking the dog...you know the form... So, I was thinking about the parallels between mental and physical characteristics. Then I got to thinking: Strength is how much force we can apply to the world. The closest mental parallel is Presence. Dexterity is how we can move around and react to the world. The closest parallel is Intelligence. Constitution is how well we can cope with the traumas the world throws at us. The closest parallel is Ego. Looked at that way, we should generally not be using PRE defensively - that would be the role of Ego, and we should not be using Ego offensively - to break out of mental entangles and such - that would be the role of PRE. Also we should probably use INT for working out combat order for mental actions. So, not a particularly profound insight, but an interesting slant on the use of characteristics nonetheless. Any thoughts? In Shadowrun (at least pre-4th edition SR), they did that kind of thing for Astral Combat: Intelligence was Astral Dexterity, Will Power was Astral Resistance, and Charisma was Astral Strength. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ockham's Spoon Posted November 4, 2009 Report Share Posted November 4, 2009 Re: PRE and EGO I have used INT+DEX as an initiative calculation in 5e in an effort to stop DEX inflation (INT inflation is less of an issue in my mind), so I fully buy into your proposed roll for INT. Now that DEX has been recosted and had the combat value calculation removed in 6e, I probably won't need to go that route. Although I love the elegance of symmetry between mental and physical characteristics, but I don't think it quite gels, at least not with my conception of those stats. EGO is force of will over your own self, willpower. PRE is imposing that will on others, more like exuding confidence or intimidation. From that perspective the idea of using EGO in place of PRE for defense seems natural; you may still be quaking in your boots because you lack confidence, but you have the willpower to stand your ground anyway. Breaking out of a mental Entangle is still affecting just you, not anyone else, so it goes to EGO. And if you want to hurt someone mentally, you don't buy EGO or PRE useable at range, you get Mental Blast. EGO used to be both mental STR and DEX, but now that we have MOCV and MDCV the role of EGO isn't so all-encompassing and conceptually works better IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted November 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2009 Re: PRE and EGO Interestingly 6eAPG suggests, as an option, splitting Dexterity into Agility and Reactions...Reactions could easily be seen as having both a mental and physical component, whilst Agility deals with 'Dex rolls': in some ways that makes it closer to the 'Intelligence as mental Agility' ideal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted November 7, 2009 Report Share Posted November 7, 2009 Re: PRE and EGO While I don't feel they break down quite as neatly as you propose, I've always thought that Defense should be exclusively the responsibility of EGO, not PRE. It’s struck me odd ever since I first read it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted November 7, 2009 Report Share Posted November 7, 2009 Re: PRE and EGO So now we have Physical stats and Mental stats. But unless things have changed in this edition, all characters have three aspects - Physical Mental and Spiritual. What would be Spiritual stats? Lucius Alexander The palindromedary has four souls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted November 7, 2009 Report Share Posted November 7, 2009 Re: PRE and EGO So now we have Physical stats and Mental stats. But unless things have changed in this edition, all characters have three aspects - Physical Mental and Spiritual. What would be Spiritual stats? Lucius Alexander The palindromedary has four souls. Is this addressed in APG? (Anyone, not just Lucius.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warp9 Posted November 8, 2009 Report Share Posted November 8, 2009 Re: PRE and EGO But unless things have changed in this edition, all characters have three aspects - Physical Mental and Spiritual. What would be Spiritual stats? When did this happen? DC Heroes always had Physical Mental and Spiritual with the following stats. . . . Strength Dexterity Body Will Power Intelligence Mind Aura Influence Spirit But I was not aware that HERO ever had any explicitly spiritual stats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted November 8, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2009 Re: PRE and EGO The origin of 'spirit' would be the rules for Transform, which specify you can transform something physically, mentally or spiritually. We have not got any 'spiritual' characteristics unless PRE, EGO and INT double up, and IIRC spiritual transforms work against Body in any event. Whether you need a 'spiritual' angle in your game - and what it should be and how it should interact with other mechanics is a matter for GM and players - I personally think 'spirit' is unnecessary and a bit of an orphan mechanic: not really sure why it was introduced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted November 8, 2009 Report Share Posted November 8, 2009 Re: PRE and EGO The origin of 'spirit' would be the rules for Transform, which specify you can transform something physically, mentally or spiritually. We have not got any 'spiritual' characteristics unless PRE, EGO and INT double up, and IIRC spiritual transforms work against Body in any event. Whether you need a 'spiritual' angle in your game - and what it should be and how it should interact with other mechanics is a matter for GM and players - I personally think 'spirit' is unnecessary and a bit of an orphan mechanic: not really sure why it was introduced. Nor I - it opens a can of worms (or even a barrell of wyrms) in the rulesbook that would be better left to be opened at the gaming table by the Game Operations Director, if anyone. But if Steve Long is going to open the can, I'm going to play with the worms. Lucius Alexander Or feed them to the palindromedary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted November 8, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2009 Re: PRE and EGO play away: I warn you though, you're never going to get them back in... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checkmate Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 Re: PRE and EGO Back to the original post, WAAAY back when I first joined Hero Central (man I wish I had more time to get back into my games there) there was a Sci-Fi game I was in and came up with Hacking ala Shadowrun where I used the Mental Stats exactly as you have them. I agree and absolutely HATE PRE as defense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted November 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 Re: PRE and EGO So...just to throw this one out there - would people like to see a 'spirit' characteristic block, separate from PRE/INT/EGO? It would probably also entail having OSCV and DSCV characteristics, and would be used for more 'mystical/spiritual' types of combat, stuff, like magic and miracles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alibear Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 Re: PRE and EGO Sure, I'd be happy with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted November 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 Re: PRE and EGO It is not something I ever really thought of as 'necessary' - and there are problems that can be caused by characteristics proliferation (not least of which - what do you spend your points on?) but, for a game that 'does it all', a set of mystic/spiritual characteristics are probably a pretty good idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warp9 Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 Re: PRE and EGO So...just to throw this one out there - would people like to see a 'spirit' characteristic block' date=' separate from PRE/INT/EGO? It would probably also entail having OSCV and DSCV characteristics, and would be used for more 'mystical/spiritual' types of combat, stuff, like magic and miracles.[/quote'] I'm not sure that is the sort of thing which needs to be directly encoded into the generic HERO rules. Actually, I've always thought that games like DC Heroes got these matters confused anyway. Yes, I can see their logic of saying : Mental = psionics Spiritual = magic But I'm not sure how well that holds up. In some games, such as AD&D (with it's spell formula's and memorization), magic was very much in the realm of intelligence. It would seem that somebody with a high-power computer brain might make a great magician in that kind of system. Of course that is just one take on these matters. . . . My take is a bit different. I'd say that you can have a brain/mind without getting into metaphysics. And, to me, "mental" stuff would be best represented by characters like Reed Richards, or Sherlock Holmes, or Star-Trek's Mr Data. Whereas abilities such as Astral Projection, or Telekinesis, imply that the character, at core essence, is more than a biological computer. To me, those kind of abilities imply that the character transcends the physical brain. Thus I'd equate psychic abilities with the spiritual side of the character. I like the idea that the psychic character gets by on raw talent, whereas the mage uses the same types of abilities, but often has less raw personal power and instead deals with things in a more sophisticated-structured manner (often drawing on external mystic-power sources). However that is only one way to see things, and I'm not sure that HERO needs to have an official take on the matter of spiritual vs mental. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
culhwch Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 Re: PRE and EGO So...just to throw this one out there - would people like to see a 'spirit' characteristic block' date=' separate from PRE/INT/EGO? It would probably also entail having OSCV and DSCV characteristics, and would be used for more 'mystical/spiritual' types of combat, stuff, like magic and miracles.[/quote'] I'd like to see it. I'm working on my In Nomine conversion to Hero, and some things would just work better if there were a spirit characteristic block. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 Re: PRE and EGO So...just to throw this one out there - would people like to see a 'spirit' characteristic block' date=' separate from PRE/INT/EGO? It would probably also entail having OSCV and DSCV characteristics, and would be used for more 'mystical/spiritual' types of combat, stuff, like magic and miracles.[/quote'] Actually, no. I am working on a proposal to cut DOWN the number of characteristics (that I'll probably post if I'm ever happy with it.) But in particular, I want just one or maybe two combat value characteristics. There could be Offensive and Defensive combat value. And I wouldn't make them characteristics or at least wouldn't let you buy them up independently. You can use Skill Levels to define exactly what kind of combat (including spiritual, if the campaign allows that) a character is good at (or not so good.) With the caveat that "Skill Level" doesn't have to mean trained skill either, a small character might have defensive Skill Levels just based on size. (For most of us that goes without saying, but I find that very little goes without saying.) Lucius Alexander Even the palindromedary won't move unless I talk to it sometimes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted November 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 Re: PRE and EGO I've always thought that small characters should be able to take DCV levels and make them persistent and always on to model being harder to hit due to size. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 Re: PRE and EGO I've always thought that small characters should be able to take DCV levels and make them persistent and always on to model being harder to hit due to size. Now with 6E you don't have too. Just buy DCV with size being the SFX, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted November 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 Re: PRE and EGO Now with 6E you don't have too. Just buy DCV with size being the SFX' date=' right?[/quote'] Not really*: Say you have 3 DCV and +6 DCV due to miniscule size; that's DCV 9. Now you're blinded: that drops your DCV by half to 5: at least SOME of that reduction should be discounted because you have not changed size: you should STILL be +6 DCV due to size even if asleep or unconscious. I'm not entirely sure there is any way to model that in Hero. The answer is get rid of dividers for Combat Values - everything should be on a bonus or penalty, and get rid of 0 being the floor for DCV: no targeting sense? -4 DCV and no way of targeting unless you can make a non-targeting sense roll or an INT roll (assuming the target has not moved) or you are using such a big AoE that targeting is irrelevant. *What I suggested would not work here either - this is a criticism of the system, not your response. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 Re: PRE and EGO You can buy Characteristics as Powers. Powers can have Modifiers. So why can't you buy +6 DCV (being small) Persistent, Always On. You said you thought small characters should be able to do that. Are you not able to do that now? Maybe I'm missing something as I don't have 6E yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted November 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 Re: PRE and EGO You can buy Characteristics as Powers. Powers can have Modifiers. So why can't you buy +6 DCV (being small) Persistent' date=' Always On. You said you thought small characters should be able to do that. Are you not able to do that now? Maybe I'm missing something as I don't have 6E yet.[/quote'] You can buy them always on persistent (probably) but they still get halved if you are (say) blinded) or reduced to zero if you are unconscious: what we need is combat values that do not change due to dividers, etc; that you can't - and have never been able - to do, even with size templa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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