(5th Ed) Grenade Arsenal

[Marcus Impudite]

Something I'm building for a character whose schitck is (obviously) he carries around an arsenal of grenades of different kinds:

 

[b]Cost Powers[/b]
40 [i]Grenade Arsenal:[/i] Multipower, 60-points reserve; OIF (lots and lots of grenades; -[font=Calibri]½)[/font]
[font=Calibri]2u 1) [i]Concussive Grenades:[/i] EB 8d6, Explosion (+[font=Calibri][font=Calibri]½); OAF (-1), Range Based On STR (-[font=Calibri]¼),[/font][/font][/font][/font][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri]6 Charges (-[font=Calibri][font=Calibri]¾)[/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font]
[font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri]2u 2) [i]Flash-Bang Grenades:[/i] Sight and Hearing Flash 7d6, Explosion (+[font=Calibri][font=Calibri]½); OAF (-1),[/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri]Range Based On STR (-[font=Calibri]¼), 6 Charges (-[font=Calibri][font=Calibri]¾)[/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font]
[font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri]2u 3) [i]Fragmentary Grenades:[/i] RKA 2[font=Calibri][font=Calibri]½d6, Explosion (+[font=Calibri][font=Calibri]½); OAF (-1),[/font][/font] Range Based On STR (-[font=Calibri]¼), [/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri]6 Charges (-[font=Calibri][font=Calibri]¾)[/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font]
[font=Calibri]2u 4) [i]Incendiary Grenades:[/i] RKA 2d6, Armor Piercing (+[font=Calibri][font=Calibri]½), Explosion (+[font=Calibri][font=Calibri]½); OAF (-1),[/font][/font] Range Based On STR (-[font=Calibri]¼), [/font][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri]6 Charges (-[font=Calibri][font=Calibri]¾)[/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font]
[font=Calibri]2u 5) [i]Knockout Gas Grenades:[/i] EB 4d6, NND (defense is Life Support [self-Contained Breathing]; +1), Area of Effect (4" Radius; +1);[/font]
[font=Calibri]      OAF (-1), Range Based On STR (-[font=Calibri]¼), [/font][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri]6 Charges (-[font=Calibri][font=Calibri]¾)[/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font]
[font=Calibri]2u 6) [i]Paint Grenades:[/i] Cosmetic Transform 6d6 (turn target dayglow orange, healed by washing with industrial-strength[/font]
[font=Calibri]      detergent), Area of Effect (3" Radius; +1[font=Calibri][font=Calibri]); OAF (-1),[/font][/font] Range Based On STR (-[font=Calibri]¼), [/font][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri]6 Charges (-[font=Calibri][font=Calibri]¾)[/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font]
[font=Calibri]2u 7) [i]Smoke Grenades:[/i] Darkness to Sight Group, 6" Radius; OAF (-1), Range Based On STR (-[font=Calibri]¼), [/font][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri]6 Continuing Charges [/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font]
[font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][font=Calibri]      last 1 Turn each (removed by high winds and rain; -[font=Calibri][font=Calibri]¼)[/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font]

[bigbywolfe]

Re: (5th Ed) Grenade Arsenal

 

I like the inclusion of the Paint Grenade...

[Sean Waters]

Re: (5th Ed) Grenade Arsenal

 

All slots have Range Based On Strength, so you could stick that on the pool too to save a few more points.

 

I also like the paint grenade but (always has to be one...) it may give you some odd results if you hit someone with particularly high Body: the paint won't stick because you have not rolled high enough to transform them.

 

I'm not sure how else you'd do the effect - the build would have to be messy - so you may want to just live with that one, but it is worth having in mind.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: (5th Ed) Grenade Arsenal

 

I have a few other ideas:

Halon (fire suppression) grenades

Vacuum grenades that suck up smoke or other vapors

Oil slick grenades

[lapsedgamer]

Re: (5th Ed) Grenade Arsenal

 

All slots have Range Based On Strength, so you could stick that on the pool too to save a few more points.

 

I also like the paint grenade but (always has to be one...) it may give you some odd results if you hit someone with particularly high Body: the paint won't stick because you have not rolled high enough to transform them.

 

I'm not sure how else you'd do the effect - the build would have to be messy - so you may want to just live with that one, but it is worth having in mind.

 

If you put a limitation on the whole pool in a multipower, I don't think you can then takk thesame limitation on every slot as well. The limitation would be assumed to apply to each slot. I would have to do the math to see which way is chepaer, but they are mutually exclusive.

 

As far as the paint grenade is concerned: The BOD thing is annoying, but I can't see a better way to handle that particular effect.

[Naanomi]

Re: (5th Ed) Grenade Arsenal

 

Paint can be 'sticky (if you want it to spread from them to other people)' 'uncontrolled' '0 END' Images, where the removal condition is cleaning it appropriately

 

Putting limitations on 'every slot' in the multipower decreases the value of every power AND the pool itself, so is the better option if you don't see yourself ever putting a power that lacks it in your pool (IE: no grenade launcher/rocket propelled grenades in your future? No 'planted bombs/landmines'?)

[Daltwisney]

Re: (5th Ed) Grenade Arsenal

 

If you put a limitation on the whole pool in a multipower, I don't think you can then takk thesame limitation on every slot as well. The limitation would be assumed to apply to each slot. I would have to do the math to see which way is chepaer, but they are mutually exclusive.

 

As far as the paint grenade is concerned: The BOD thing is annoying, but I can't see a better way to handle that particular effect.

 

If a limitation affects every power in a MP, you can apply it to the Pool as well. (FRED p320).

 

As a side note, I really like the differing use of Foci here. Each grenade is easily removed, but disarming the whole Arsenal takes some work.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: (5th Ed) Grenade Arsenal

 

If a limitation affects every power in a MP, you can apply it to the Pool as well. (FRED p320).

 

As a side note, I really like the differing use of Foci here. Each grenade is easily removed, but disarming the whole Arsenal takes some work.

 

Right. If all the slots have the limitation you can apply it to the pool. That I follow. However, I thought he said that you could apply the limitation to the pool and then apply it seperately to each slot, which I still believe is wrong. The cost savings only applies once per slot whether the limitation is appliedto the pool or not. Then again, I could have misunderstood what he said in the first place.

[Sean Waters]

Re: (5th Ed) Grenade Arsenal

 

No, I think you understood, but we differ over how it works I think you can apply a 'common limitation' to the pool AND every slot.

 

In the above case you COULD apply OAF to the pool (and 'Range limited by STR') BUT limiting the pool as OIF (so you can't get ALL the grenades taken away) is genius.

 

When I build grenades I like to build them with a trigger (pull pin and let the handle go), so that you can do cunning grenade tricks like pull the pin then wedge a grenade in a (slightly open) door so that when someone opens the door it sets the grenade off. Assuming it is a zero phase action to pull the pin, and a full phase to reset it only adds +1/4.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: (5th Ed) Grenade Arsenal

 

No, I think you understood, but we differ over how it works I think you can apply a 'common limitation' to the pool AND every slot.

 

In the above case you COULD apply OAF to the pool (and 'Range limited by STR') BUT limiting the pool as OIF (so you can't get ALL the grenades taken away) is genius.

 

When I build grenades I like to build them with a trigger (pull pin and let the handle go), so that you can do cunning grenade tricks like pull the pin then wedge a grenade in a (slightly open) door so that when someone opens the door it sets the grenade off. Assuming it is a zero phase action to pull the pin, and a full phase to reset it only adds +1/4.

 

I would think that if the grenades were stored in a belt or Liefeld-esque set of pouches, you could say OAF or OIF for the rig and then have focus limitations on each individual grenade. However, if somone took your bandolier, that would prevent you from using any of the slots. That I could see as a reasonable rationale for double savings.

 

However, I don't think this character would work that way. It sounds like he just has a bunch of grenades stored all over the place. If I snatch one grenade, he can just select another one. I would say at that point you could assign the modifier to the whole pool if there will not be anything other than OAFs in it. If not, put the limit you want on each slot. It's an either/or. No double-dipping allowed without a substantial added disadvantage.

[Sean Waters]

Re: (5th Ed) Grenade Arsenal

 

It is not double dipping as it is clearly allowed by the rules: I only have FRED with me but if you look under MPs at the Armadillo Armour it has OIF on the pool and all slots.

 

The bigger problem here - despite official rulings - is the 'charges' limitation IMO: you are getting a power with 42 charges (albeit 6x7 charges). Normally that would be an advantage of +1/2, but because it is spread over teh slots you actually get a cost break on it. That seems wrong to me.

 

Another point that occurs is this: whilst a MP is the most efficient way to built this sort of thing, I'm not sure it makes a lot of 'game world sense' - why can you not chuck a couple of grenades together, or give grenades to your friends to use?

 

I'd probably want to know what it is about these grenades that mean that only the owner can use them and then only one at a time. But then I'm a grouch.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: (5th Ed) Grenade Arsenal

 

Back to the paint grenade. What if the Transform was NND with the defense being a PD Force Field or something like that? (The reasoning being with a FF the paint doesn't actually reach the clothes.)

[Sean Waters]

Re: (5th Ed) Grenade Arsenal

 

Back to the paint grenade. What if the Transform was NND with the defense being a PD Force Field or something like that? (The reasoning being with a FF the paint doesn't actually reach the clothes.)

 

That would be bad, I'm afraid: most people do not have Power Defence anyway - the issue is how much Body they have - and NND simply makes the cost per die higher, so you roll less dice. However you could certainly apply a limitation 'not v sfx - force field' to the build

 

Weird - such a basic effect - changing something's colour - and it's a stumper: it is either prohibitively expensive or really fiddly.

 

I suppose you could build it as negative skill levels with stealth, sfx 'covered in bright orange paint'

 

At least that affects everybody equally.

[Daltwisney]

Re: (5th Ed) Grenade Arsenal

 

Back to the paint grenade. What if the Transform was NND with the defense being a PD Force Field or something like that? (The reasoning being with a FF the paint doesn't actually reach the clothes.)

 

I don't think that works. The defense against Transform is Power Defense, although it also obviously affected by the target having higher Body. If you made it NND, you'd just end up with a weaker Transform that still has to overcome the target's Body to affect them. The FF reasoning seems sound enough, I just don't think it has the effect you want, unless I'm misunderstanding you.

[Sean Waters]

Re: (5th Ed) Grenade Arsenal

 

Is anyone else thinking about 'Kelly's Heroes'?

[EverKnight]

Re: (5th Ed) Grenade Arsenal

 

What about the Change Environment power for the paint grenade? If it was given a limitation of instant duration and the long lasting adder then it would colour everything in the area of effect orange until the paint was washed off. Limited combat effects could then be chosen from what's available in Change Environment.

[Sean Waters]

Re: (5th Ed) Grenade Arsenal

 

What about the Change Environment power for the paint grenade? If it was given a limitation of instant duration and the long lasting adder then it would colour everything in the area of effect orange until the paint was washed off. Limited combat effects could then be chosen from what's available in Change Environment.

 

I'm not sure you are supposed to target an individual with CE, and what it is doing is improving other people's PER rolls, not imposing a negative as such unless, like the negative skill levles, it is on your Stealth roll.

 

It is actually more like a form of long lasting Image. Still, that isn't straightforward to build (you'd probably have to make it UAA, at least) and Cosmetic Transform is specifically mentioned for changing the colour of an opponent's skin.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: (5th Ed) Grenade Arsenal

 

I thought the default target for CE is an individual in 6E...

[Sean Waters]

Re: (5th Ed) Grenade Arsenal

 

I thought the default target for CE is an individual in 6E...

 

Ha - so it is - so I withdraw that objection but I'm still sticking on the actual effect. Yes you COULD impose penalties on a target's Stealth Roll but they should be easier to spot even if they are not trying to be stealthy, I'd have thought.

Covered in Paint: Change Environment (-3 to Stealth Roll, Long-Lasting 1 Hour) 19 Active points

[Marcus Impudite]

Re: (5th Ed) Grenade Arsenal

 

On the paint grenade, the way I was thinking of handling it (assuming I'm GMing or can persuade the person who is) is to take the BODY rolled on the dice (minus defenses), compare with the target's BODYx2 and figure the percentage of the target covered by the paint. That would, of course, mean the targets with higher BODY would still get some paint on them but may not get a "full coat." Something of a handwave sure, but as it is a Cosmetic Transform, it's mostly for "tagging" anyway.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: (5th Ed) Grenade Arsenal

 

Isn't there some kind of "partial transform" option that should be on the build then?

[Sean Waters]

Re: (5th Ed) Grenade Arsenal

 

Yes there is - but that means even less dice

[Naanomi]

Re: (5th Ed) Grenade Arsenal

 

The partial transform option means that even with only a 1 rolled, some paint gets on them... so the less dice matters less.

 

Rolling their body or more would just mean 100% covered in paint. It is only +1/4 in any case. Still, I like the Uncontrolled Images for my color changing needs to avoid this sort of thing.

[torchwolf]

Re: (5th Ed) Grenade Arsenal

 

The partial transform option means that even with only a 1 rolled, some paint gets on them... so the less dice matters less.

 

Rolling their body or more would just mean 100% covered in paint. It is only +1/4 in any case. Still, I like the Uncontrolled Images for my color changing needs to avoid this sort of thing.

Plus, by using Images you can also get a PER bonus to target, say, a camouflaged, tiny or shrunk target - and let's say the paint is fluorescent so that it helps you perceive the tagged target at night too.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: (5th Ed) Grenade Arsenal

 

If you were doing this with 6E you could probably use the Alternate Defense (or whatever it's called) so that Power Defense wouldn't make the target immune to paint (I don't think Power Defense and PD Force Field would be too drastic a difference in cost) and use the Partial Transform so pretty much anyone will get some paint on them, unless the paint literally can't get to their clothes.