Balls of Steel

[torchwolf]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

I suspect this thread is actually more about game balance than the actual BoS.

 

How much more balanced would this be if we also allowed the Blaster to use a Casual Blast against the object as it sails towards him? Not at all for the Steel Balls' date=' but that's because these are low BOD, high DEF objects. The tree and the car, I suspect, have higher BOD and lower DEF. Would a casual blast damage them, such that they would no longer have the capacity to do 12d6 damage when they impact immediately thereafter? They are large objects, so it would seem more realistic that they can be casually targeted than that they can casuualy be grabbed and thrown. The blast could also do knockback, throwing the object off its trajectory, although knockback from a casual blast is unlikely to be significant, especially when the object is large (and small ones would require more effort to target).[/quote']

I'm all for creative use of powers - but I'd treat that as the requirement for blocking a heavy thrown object - you'd have to use your blast (costing the relevant END) and then you get a block attempt: you can not normally block an AoE, but I'd allow that as an exception. Whether or not 'casual blast' was enough I'd have to ponder: I'd suggest that the amount of blast needed would have to be at least equal to the amount of STR required to lift the object - and, of course, being a block, it would take a combat action.

 

So, if Blob throws a car at Cyclops he could not normally block it, because it is too big and too heavy, but I'd allow him to use his Optic Blast as the sfx of a block in that instance. If the DC of the blast he uses x5 is equal to the STR needed to the STR needed to lift the car (i.e 6 to 7 DC) I'd say it works, otherwise it probably just knocks off a few dice of damage.

Deflecting incoming objects is easily handled if Blocking is allowed at range.

 

I don't necessarily think that a large thrown object impacts with more damage than a small one - the important thing would be the DEF+BODY, since the brick's strength would impart a lower velocity to a large object and vice versa, resulting in the same amount of energy transferred to the target.

 

Reasoning from that (and ignoring things like slowing from air resistance, trajectories and flight time of thrown objects), the mass doesn't matter as much as the STR with which an object was thrown, and if handling this by calculating the KB from a Blast vs a thrown object, it's KB vs STR/5, minus 1 from flying (actual damage if the object hit its target would still only be DEF+BODY). This is a bit out of the RAW though and the effects would become unpredictable - rather than being deflected, a thrown car may be sent spinning or being slowed in velocity; etc.

Maybe the impact can be reduced by expert use of a Blast - or another thrown object impacting the original (a friendly brick throwing something at the incoming car).

 

This situation can of course use the optional Combat Maneuver Interfererence (APG p170, UEP p196).

 

Of course, none of this applies for throwing soft objects or small pebbles etc.

 

Part of the problem is that we argue realism when it suits the Brick' date=' but not when it acts to his detriment.[/quote']

Thing is' date=' despite the whole thing about being 'effects based', we've always had a blind spot on STR and work it backwards: if I was strong what would I be able to do? - rather than - 'building' your vision of Strength from a set of tools. I mean how far you can throw a heavy object is as much a function of how fast you can move as how strong you are. I mean a crane is very strong and can lift a lot, but isn't going to be throwing anything very far. The ability to throw heavy objects could easily be divorced from strength. In fact, arguably, the ability to do any kind of damage other than squeezing or rending damage could be divorced from strength.[/quote']

After following this thread, I'm beginning to think that a beginning GM (especially in Superheroic campaigns) should take under serious consideration whether to use the Realistic Uses of STR Rules (APG p10-12, UB p114-115) as a default rule, lessening or ignoring restrictions for abilities purchased with Character Points.

 

Disclaimer: This is the road I take, but then again I'm also using Hit Locations, limiting combat-time conversation by time and noise level, allowing but frequently destroying equipment not paid for by Points, and generally doing other unorthodox stuff in Superheroic games, so maybe my views on these matters apply less to the Superheroic games of others.

Slightly OT: disallowing Post-Segment-12 Recovery definitely encourages PCs to make use of the environment as well as use Cover to take Recoveries once in a while, IME.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

I'm all for creative use of powers - but I'd treat that as the requirement for blocking a heavy thrown object - you'd have to use your blast (costing the relevant END) and then you get a block attempt: you can not normally block an AoE' date=' but I'd allow that as an exception. Whether or not 'casual blast' was enough I'd have to ponder: I'd suggest that the amount of blast needed would have to be at least equal to the amount of STR required to lift the object - and, of course, being a block, it would take a combat action.[/quote']

 

I like the "need equal Blast to the STR needed to lift the object" idea. This seems balanced with allowing the Brick to piuck up an object without using an attack action only if he is capable of lifting the object with casual STR. For fairness, then, I would suggest the Bl;aster should be able to use Casual Blast to attempt tp deflect the object (not a block, no action required) provided his "casual blast" is capable of blocking the object. A 60 STR Brick can throw objects requiring 30 STR to lift in a single action (Lift not an attack; Throw is an attack) but the 12d6 Blaster can use Casual Blast (no action) to deflect the object. The Brick could pick up a heavier object, but that's an attack action so he will have to throw it next phase. The Blaster needs to use more than Casual Blast to deflect it, so he needs an attack action. With both characters required to use attack actions on an equivalent basis, we now have reasonable balance.

 

So' date=' if Blob throws a car at Cyclops he could not normally block it, because it is too big and too heavy, but I'd allow him to use his Optic Blast as the sfx of a block in that instance. If the DC of the blast he uses x5 is equal to the STR needed to the STR needed to lift the car (i.e 6 to 7 DC) I'd say it works, otherwise it probably just knocks off a few dice of damage.[/quote']

 

If Cyke can manage that 6 or 7d6 with a Casual Blast, he should be able to Deflect casually. Blob got to pick the object up Casually if it could be lifted with his casual STR.

 

Not necessarily - casual STR may well allow you to simple plough through debris - and anyway' date=' not all bricks are earthbound.[/quote']

 

Agree with the latter. To the former, casual STR will n ot flatten the ground making it easier to traverse.

 

Given superhero move rates' date=' getting to the next manhole cover is probably not that difficult, and as they tend to be in the middle of the street then debris is probably less of an issue - however, I'm not saying we should make matters favourable to the brick, or any other archetype - I'm saying that we should not bend the game world so that we balance out the cost imbalance - we should actually look at cost/utility. Grabbing and throwing heavy objects is an almost inevitable sight in comics featuring super strong characters. Heroclix actually scatters markers for heavy objects on the game map. I'm saying that Strength is an extremely flexible power with an awful lot of applications.[/quote']

 

The need to use a half phase and stop to pick up the object is still a restriction. I'd like to move in closer so I can reduce the range modifier, but since I had to stop and pick up the manhole cover, I can either throw it or close, not both, with my remaining 1/2 phase.

[JaredThaler]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

Maybe - maybe not - if you can snap the trunk with casual STR you can free it to use - or of you just get KB'd into it and it broke all on its own - point is that a creative player can usually find something to throw in most environments.

 

Um... By Definition, if the brick can (reliably) snap the trunk with his casual strength, doesn't that mean the tree had ~1/2 the Def + Body he needs to be able to use his full strength when throwing it?

[JmOz]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

This is an answer using 6th edition, in 5th and before Figured Characteristics complicates it

 

75 Super Strength MP (75point reserve)

7u +50 Str, 0 END

6u 12d6 EB, Range Based on Str -1/4, 12 recoverable charges (+1/4)

 

The 0 end is an add on to the original design, not needed by concept but the point mechanic in me just could not turn down the advantage for 2 points

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

This is an answer using 6th edition, in 5th and before Figured Characteristics complicates it

 

75 Super Strength MP (75point reserve)

7u +50 Str, 0 END

6u 12d6 EB, Range Based on Str -1/4, 12 recoverable charges (+1/4)

 

The 0 end is an add on to the original design, not needed by concept but the point mechanic in me just could not turn down the advantage for 2 points

 

The alternative would have been to turn down the automatic 0 END on charges - otherwise it costs you to use the SuperStrength in melee, but not at range. That wouldn't save much, though.

 

You could slap "Unified Power" on each slot (-1/4) so your ability to throw and your SuperSTR drop off, if drained, at the same rate. However, each would still be enhanced separately by adjustment powers. Since the same limitation would be on both powers, it would also apply to the pool. Cost falls to 60 + 6 + 5 = 71.

 

For verissimilitude purposes, shouldn't you also have a Focus on the EB? That would reduce the cost another point or so.

[JmOz]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

Yes I should (I would rule it OIF)

 

Funny thing about adding Univiersal power is that it brings the cost down to below what you get for only having one power...seems kind of funny to me, always has...then again, and I need to reread the rules for adjustment in 6th but as a player I would target there pool instead of the power with my drain

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

Yes I should (I would rule it OIF)

 

Funny thing about adding Univiersal power is that it brings the cost down to below what you get for only having one power...seems kind of funny to me, always has...then again, and I need to reread the rules for adjustment in 6th but as a player I would target there pool instead of the power with my drain

 

I don't believe the pool itself can be targeted. However, I agree the end result of getting a choice of two powers for lower cost than a single power seems a bit off - especially if that second power is rarely a target for adjustment powers anyway.

 

That said, 12d6 Energy Blast costs 60. A Multipower of 2 60 AP powers, with non-flexible slots, and Unified Power costs 48 for the pool + 5 for each slot, total 58. If I'm taking it only for the cost reduction on Slit #1, I save 2 points because it will be drained with Slot #2. And if the GM isn't ever going to drain Slot #2, how is Unified Power a limitation at all?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

Um... By Definition' date=' if the brick can (reliably) snap the trunk with his casual strength, doesn't that mean the tree had ~1/2 the Def + Body he needs to be able to use his full strength when throwing it?[/quote']

 

No more than snapping someone's arm would mean you'd have done enough damage to kill them.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

This is an answer using 6th edition, in 5th and before Figured Characteristics complicates it

 

75 Super Strength MP (75point reserve)

7u +50 Str, 0 END

6u 12d6 EB, Range Based on Str -1/4, 12 recoverable charges (+1/4)

 

The 0 end is an add on to the original design, not needed by concept but the point mechanic in me just could not turn down the advantage for 2 points

 

The problem here is that I can't hold a large family car above my head with one arm and casually fling a steel ball at an opponent with the other. The mechanics of the MP take away your strength when you throw something.

 

:cry:That makes me sad. I mean, you wouldn't want a large family to fall on you would you, let alone their car...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

No more than snapping someone's arm would mean you'd have done enough damage to kill them.

 

So how much would you lower the DEF and BOD of a tree to "just" uproot it or snap it off? Seems to me that you HAVE, at that point, killed the tree.

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

The problem here is that I can't hold a large family car above my head with one arm and casually fling a steel ball at an opponent with the other. The mechanics of the MP take away your strength when you throw something.

 

Easily fixed:

 

75 Super Strength MP (75point reserve)

7u +50 Str, 0 END

6u 12d6 EB, Range Based on Str -1/4, 12 recoverable charges (+1/4)

 

10 +20 STR, Linked to 12d6 EB (-1/2), x2 END (-1/2)

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

I'd be thinking that the problem here is in the BODY of the tree rather than DEF. Snapping it does not inherently kill the tree (though you've made it pretty likely). Would you require more or less STR to uproot or to snap. When you snap it, is it more pliable or floppy or brittle than before? That broken tree has the same DEF and probably the same BODY as before.

 

It is an interesting questiopn though - how much STR does it take to snap a tree? I think using Sean's estimate (as much STR as it takes to lift it) might be a useful one.

 

This argument highlights the problem with the use of BODY both as hits to kill and hits to destroy....

 

 

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

I'd be thinking that the problem here is in the BODY of the tree rather than DEF. Snapping it does not inherently kill the tree (though you've made it pretty likely). Would you require more or less STR to uproot or to snap. When you snap it, is it more pliable or floppy or brittle than before? That broken tree has the same DEF and probably the same BODY as before.

 

It is an interesting questiopn though - how much STR does it take to snap a tree? I think using Sean's estimate (as much STR as it takes to lift it) might be a useful one.

 

If you can just barely lift something, I see uprooting it as highly unlikely.

 

This argument highlights the problem with the use of BODY both as hits to kill and hits to destroy....

 

I had not considered that aspect. The "snapped tree" should have more or less the same DEF and BOD (maybe 1 BOD down depending on where it was snapped). If the tree is sturdy enough to deliver your full STR, it seems unlikely it can be snapped like a twig with a small portion of that same STR.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

I thought of MP also but wouldn't use it personally. I think the Unified Power limitation would leave the character much more "brick-like".

 

For example:

- You throw a ball but in the next segment (which is not your phase) you are grappled by a STR 20 charcater. You are now half DCV because you can't Casually shrug it off until you can reset your MP to STR.

- Door in the way? Normally it would be splinters but if you threw a ball last phase and didn't reset, you just blew a phase opening it.

- Using STR to resist KB? I think you get the idea.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

If you can just barely lift something' date=' I see uprooting it as highly unlikely. [/quote']

 

Yup. Can't lift it. not likely to uproot it.

 

However, that was not the question. What STR does it take to snap it?

 

I had not considered that aspect. The "snapped tree" should have more or less the same DEF and BOD (maybe 1 BOD down depending on where it was snapped). If the tree is sturdy enough to deliver your full STR' date=' it seems unlikely it can be snapped like a twig with a small portion of that same STR.[/quote']

 

So. If you 'kill' the tree, then the dead tree has possibly one less BODY than it had before? Could that mean that DEF + 1 = Snapped tree?? Possibly increasing the BODY depending on the girth of the tree...

 

Doc

[Drhoz]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

The obvious advantage of buying those things is there would be no concerns about how to build/acquire replacements (assuming they were built as Foci)' date=' nor would the GM occasionally go "You know that bag with the Balls of Steel you carry over your shoulder? Well, it just broke, because , and now the Balls are rolling down the street and causing traffic havoc. OK, your Phase."[/quote']

 

 

Might need to spend some points on Sean's Ballbag, too