Balls of Steel

[Daltwisney]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

Incidentally, wouldn't DEF 9 BODY 4 objects be damaged from using a 12d6 attack? (taking 3 BODY per use)

I may be forgetting something here though.

Aye, they would, which is probably a good rationale for the Charges not to be Recoverable. While you could pick up one of the used bearings, having taken 3 of its 4 BODY, chances are that it is no longer Balanced or Aerodynamic, probably having been somewhat flattened or otherwise deformed by the impact. The reasoning behind the 13 Total was so that he could do his full 12 DCs of STR damage according to the "Objects of Opportunity" rules. Another thing to note is that IF he actually does pay points for it, the DEF and BODY become important only as stats for a Focus, because then it is no longer an "Object of Opportunity", and thus he could push his STR, or Haymaker the attack and get full benefit.

[torchwolf]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

Ball bearings on the order of 2.5" diameter are readily available' date=' and a standard Baseball (which is quite different from a Basketball, and was the size mentioned by the OP) are 2.875" to 3" in diameter. How available they are 'in the field' may be another matter, but they certainly exist.[/quote']

I stand corrected as to the size of the OP's example Balls of Steel, and applaud your effort to define the availability of ball bearing dimensions. These number will undoubtedly come in handy for any number of strange reasons such things actually come up in a campaign.

A bit more complicated could be the toughness (DEF and BODY) of such items' date=' but in a Superhero world where someone with a 60 STR exists, I think that's pretty much a decision for the GM to make. If he thinks it's reasonable, then it is, no Materials Engineering required.[/quote']

Agreed. Since, in a superhero world, Balls of any Unobtainium-like material might be available, it would in most cases be a pseudo-theoretical issue involving rubber science (the individual GM's material strength limits).

[Daltwisney]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

I stand corrected as to the size of the OP's example Balls of Steel' date=' and applaud your effort to define the availability of ball bearing dimensions. These number will undoubtedly come in handy for any number of strange reasons such things actually come up in a campaign. [/quote']

 

The lesson we learn from all this is: "Never over-estimate the size of Sean's Balls"

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

Is this just a Limited Power Limitation you thought appropriate' date=' or is it in the book somewhere? I don't recall seeing it, and I can't seem to find it anywhere now that I'm looking. Closest I find is the "Cannot be Multiple Attacked (-1/2)" suggested for Crossbows and other items with a reload time.[/quote']

 

I think you can multiple Attack - throw three of them. I don't recall where I saw it, but I'm pretty there have been characters who can't use certain attacks in Multiple Power Attacks. Seems like it should be worth something and -1/4 seems reasonable. Maybe it's worth more if MPA's are common in your game. Clearly, Rapid Attack is common in the games that lead to the Crossbow limitation value.

[Daltwisney]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

I think you can multiple Attack - throw three of them. I don't recall where I saw it' date=' but I'm pretty there have been characters who can't use certain attacks in Multiple Power Attacks. Seems like it should be worth something and -1/4 seems reasonable. Maybe it's worth more if MPA's are common in your game. Clearly, Rapid Attack is common in the games that lead to the Crossbow limitation value.[/quote']

 

I think there are certainly circumstances where certain attacks cannot be combined (opposite SFX for example) or where certain uses of a Power 'lockout' other uses. That particular Limitation just seemed odd, as one of the examples in the book has a character grabbing a knife from Thug A, stabbing Thug B with it, then throwing it at Thug C, all as one Multiple Attack. That to me is just a great visual, and certainly seems like it should be possible, and it does involve 3 different applications of STR, one of which is Ranged.

[Farkling]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

I'm in the charge him for it crowd...the balls are pretty specific, and even a Blast consisting of objects of oppurtunity should require a charge to be reliable. If he's carrying a focus around as part of his entourage, then he needs to be charged for it or lose it a lot, like it was his bluetooth cell phone or the flashlight he picked up at Wal-Mart

 

Now, with a choice of 16 charges, it seems the character is expecting a cost to be imposed, ...since that's the most 'Charges' he can take without paying.

 

Better if he just has two steel cojones tucked into a convenient 'pouch' on his supersuit...

 

Modelling Hugh's example code, we generate a variant of the following:

 

(60 AP) 12d6 Blast, OIF - Steel Cojone (-1/2), (2) Recoverable Charges (-1), Cannot multiple attack (-1/4), Range based on STR (-1/4), Beam Attack (-1/4), and Costs STR Endurance (-1/4)...

 

Real Cost :: 17 pts

[Sean Waters]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

Crack Wizard, one of the team, has a really useful (er...) Transform power that allows him to turn stuff into baseball size DEF 9, Body 4 metal balls.

 

Guys, come on, get off the 'availability' thing - we can get them - what I want to know is if we charge for them, and if so how much.

 

I mean 'being able to throw stuff' is a part of Strength, so being able to cause damage at STR range is a part of that you don't have to pay for because, well, you've already paid for it.

 

So what you've got here is a ready supply of stuff to throw, that is easy to throw accurately.

 

So:

 

1. Do we charge for it?

 

2. If we do charge for it, what is that worth, over and above what you've already paid for with that 60 STR?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

Crack Wizard' date=' one of the team, has a really useful (er...) Transform power that allows him to turn stuff into baseball size DEF 9, Body 4 metal balls.[/quote']

 

Then it's already paid for, isn't it?

 

Really, availability doesn't much matter. My teammate can have 75 points of Martial Arts and PS: Martial Arts Teacher on a 25-, and I still have to pay the points if I want to add a martial maneuver to my character sheet. Why should objects the characters can lay their hands on be costed differently than training they can easily justify?

 

Guys, come on, get off the 'availability' thing - we can get them - what I want to know is if we charge for them, and if so how much.

 

I mean 'being able to throw stuff' is a part of Strength, so being able to cause damage at STR range is a part of that you don't have to pay for because, well, you've already paid for it.

 

So what you've got here is a ready supply of stuff to throw, that is easy to throw accurately.

 

So:

 

1. Do we charge for it?

 

I think popular sentiment is weighing in as "yes". I'm inclined to agree. A fellow who pays for WF: Firearms, and a pile of skill levels with ranged combat, has already paid the points to be a great sharpshooter, but he still has to pay for a rifle if he wants to carry one around, so the argument that "I already paid for the ability to throw things" carries no real weight to me.

 

2. If we do charge for it' date=' what is that worth, over and above what you've already paid for with that 60 STR?[/quote']

 

It's worth the same thing it's worth to anyone else to have the same reliable ability to be able to inflict 12d6 at range.

[Tasha]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

If it is used more than once and the player wants this to become part of the characters collection of abilities, then YES he needs to pay for the ability. In a supers game it is perfectly ok for a PC to pickup a viper blaster and use it during the adventure, but they must pay points for it if they wish to continue to use it. It is the only way to be completely fair to those players who have characters that don't collect foci.

 

For a bag of huge steel balls it is either/or a EB equal to his strength and/or a Killing attack (think of a mace head being thrown)

[Ragitsu]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

It is Power Advantage that is purchased separately from a Power. Such as AP on a portion of a character's STR, or the ability to make any gun up to a specified power-level Autofire. The power can be used without the advantage if desired.

 

The description and rules appear at the beginning of the Advantages section in both 5ER (p244) and 6E (6E1, p314).

 

Thank you, Daltwisney .

[Utech]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

Again, I think the decision of whether or not to charge for the balls depends on how strict you wish to be in your game. Some games work best when everything is very clearly "paid for" while other games thrive by being looser.

 

Assuming that you're in a strict game, the important question to ask is: What benefit does this character gain from carrying around these balls? The answer to that will (again) depend on the sort of game you're running. In many superhero games it's not at all difficult for your brick to grab and throw a telephone pole, car, dumpster, manhole cover, dropped VIPER weapon, dropped VIPER agent, etc. In other games it might be difficult to find, get to, grab, aim, fling, and do damage with anything in the environment. Surely the cost of Sean's balls will be lower in the first sort of game than in the second, no?

 

I could easily see a flat cost* for Sean's balls. Anywhere from 0 to 20 points depending on the sort of game you run.

 

*My source in Bournemouth promises to get me the official street price.

[Markdoc]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

To me, this is pretty straightforward: the character wants very specific items. They are not something he can easily acquire from the general environment and therefore - by definition - not "objects of opportunity". The same would apply if he got his gadgeteer buddy to whip him up a set of "HKA laser claws" and wanted it free as "laser claws of opportunity". As to cost, it's a 12d6 EB, so I'm guessing oh ... about 60 active points, appropriately limited.

 

cheers, Mark

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

Again' date=' I think the decision of whether or not to charge for the balls depends on how strict you wish to be in your game. Some games work best when everything is very clearly "paid for" while other games thrive by being looser.[/quote']

 

The question to ask in this case is what the Martial Artist, Mentalist, Energy Projector and other archetypes get for free to compare to the Brick's freebie throwing weapons. Whether every character can get significant point-free benefits or none can, the game should be balanced. But if one type of character gets substantial free benefits and other characters pay for everything with points, that leads, at least in my view, to a balance problem.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

*warning - a bit of rules mongering be here*

 

IMHO as a GM and a player, if you focus on the intent of the question...

- I want a 12d6, 16 Charge, ranged attack

and remove (again IMHO) all the extraneous information that doesn't affect the cost of other powers...

- I have a 60 STR which allows me to throw stuff anyway

- The special effect is steel balls that are aerodynamic and balanced

- There's almost always something to throw

- They should be easily obtainable anyway

you are left with a simple answer.

- the cost should be equal to a 12d6 EB, 16 Recoverable Charges (+1/2) (90 APs), OAF (-1), Limited Power (Foci are 9 DEF/ 4 BODY instead of 12 DEF/ 1 BODY meaning the charges will only be recoverable 3 times before they need to be replaced) (-1/4), Costs Endurance (-1/2), Range Based on STR (-1/4), Unified Power (with STR) (-1/4) = a Real Cost of 28 pts.

 

I would explain this ruling to one of my players based on the following...

- in Superheroic game you must pay for equipment with points (6e1 29-32)

- STR is not intended to be used at range outisde specific powers such as Stretching and Telekinesis or the Throw maneuver (6e1 231, 294, 344)

- While objects a 60 STR character can throw may be common, those that can hit for 12d6 damage may not be (6e2 173-174)

- In other words, you get what you pay for (quote from 6e1, 10):

"The opposite point is equally true: if a character uses something a lot in the game, or has an ability that can be very effective in some situations, he should probably pay Character Points for it."

[Ice9]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

If it was just buying these balls in a store, then I would say it falls under the same category as all equipment - pay points for it if you want it to be reliable, otherwise it may get damaged/lost at inconvenient times (yes, this applies to guns too, IMC).

 

However, these balls are being provided by a power that a teammate did pay points for. Making a convenient object to throw is exactly the kind of thing that Transform does. For the same reason, if someone used Transform to create some dry logs, and someone else with Heat Vision set them on fire, nobody would be required to pay for Life Support or Change Environment to benefit from that.

[torchwolf]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

If it was just buying these balls in a store, then I would say it falls under the same category as all equipment - pay points for it if you want it to be reliable, otherwise it may get damaged/lost at inconvenient times (yes, this applies to guns too, IMC).

 

However, these balls are being provided by a power that a teammate did pay points for. Making a convenient object to throw is exactly the kind of thing that Transform does. For the same reason, if someone used Transform to create some dry logs, and someone else with Heat Vision set them on fire, nobody would be required to pay for Life Support or Change Environment to benefit from that.

Though it borders on the territory of this teamup:

 

Mr (Only-In-Strong-Magnetic) Fields

33 [various Characteristics worth 100 points, Only In Strong Magnetic Fields(-2)]

 

and his Cheap Follower

 

Ms Cheap

3 Change Environment (Strong Magnetic Fields)

 

 

Of course, any sane GM would rip up these character sheets (or demand huge bribes depending on GM style), but the issue is the same.

[Ice9]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

I see it as more like a teammate with a flying spell (Flight, UbO) allowing an otherwise landbound teammate to go punch the flying villain in the face. Synergistic, but not a cheap trick.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

Though it borders on the territory of this teamup:

 

Mr (Only-In-Strong-Magnetic) Fields

33 [various Characteristics worth 100 points, Only In Strong Magnetic Fields(-2)]

 

and his Cheap Follower

 

Ms Cheap

3 Change Environment (Strong Magnetic Fields)

 

 

Of course, any sane GM would rip up these character sheets (or demand huge bribes depending on GM style), but the issue is the same.

 

True, but would you not allow:

 

Sister Strong

67 [various Characteristics worth 100 points, Only when able to hear the song (-1/2)]

 

and a team mate

 

Sister Song who, you know, sings the song.

 

I mean, it costs out then like a OIF - and there are plenty of ways to remove Sister Song from the vicinity or stop her singing...AND Sister Song could be a cheap follower rather than a team mate with the same outcome.

 

Is there a problem there?

 

Back to the Balls of Steel - how often in most games is there nothing to throw that can't take 12 Body? In most games not that often: Most city streets have cars on them and cars are big enough to be AoE attacks - or at least get a significant OCV bonus to cancel the aerodynamic/unbalanced thing. You can (as GM) take the BoS away when you like- is that really worth another 40 points in terms of added utility?

[torchwolf]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

True, but would you not allow:

 

Sister Strong

67 [various Characteristics worth 100 points, Only when able to hear the song (-1/2)]

 

and a team mate

 

Sister Song who, you know, sings the song.

 

I mean, it costs out then like a OIF - and there are plenty of ways to remove Sister Song from the vicinity or stop her singing...AND Sister Song could be a cheap follower rather than a team mate with the same outcome.

 

Is there a problem there?

Nothing that Howler, Argent Anarky, and Roadkill couldn't handle. *ducks*

The problem would be if it were a PC with little in the way on other abilities, of course - like ON-OFF Man, who either is vary capable or not at all, same as many PC power armor heroes.

Now, if I were the GM, I would allow this to a certain degree, as long as the PC had other areas where he/she could function - if the old Champions character Jaguar was unable to Multiform into a werejaguar, he could still use his human form's detective skills.

 

Back to the Balls of Steel - how often in most games is there nothing to throw that can't take 12 Body? In most games not that often: Most city streets have cars on them and cars are big enough to be AoE attacks - or at least get a significant OCV bonus to cancel the aerodynamic/unbalanced thing. You can (as GM) take the BoS away when you like- is that really worth another 40 points in terms of added utility?

Again, this brings us back to the "it depends" answer. I would personally as a GM allow the Balls of Steel (especially since those balls as described get broken after a few uses) and go with it, confident that if it becomes an unbalanced issue, there would either be a Power purchase to balance the issue, or unfortunate series of events resulting in lost or broken balls.

I had a PC who way back got hold of a lot of weapons and explosives which he intended to use, even after I warned him about "things happen to unpaid stuff in Superheroic games". It soon ended in an exploded hideout, gangs getting hold of lots of stolen guns, some bad PR, as well as players unwilling to keep loot they didn't pay for (everyone had fun watching all the chaos though).

As you state, it doesn't appear to be a game-breaker to me, but considering the BoS can be used way more effectively than most stuff in the environment (being effectively an EB, RBS), I would watch it.

OTOH, many bricks can easily tear up a telephone pole, lamp post, or similar items, and quickly have a quite effective and very lethal spear to throw, so the BoS isn't as abusive as they seem, I would think.

 

On the BoS-producing teammate: if that character could only use that Power for this specific purpose I would suggest the player redesign it more generally applicable, to work for other things as well.

[Utech]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

I suppose if anyone really wanted to run the numbers on it, you could work out the point value of the "free power" bricks already have, compare it to the point value of a Blast with Charges, subtract, and get us a final value.

 

Anyone?

[Doc Samson]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

Back to the Balls of Steel - how often in most games is there nothing to throw that can't take 12 Body? In most games not that often: Most city streets have cars on them and cars are big enough to be AoE attacks - or at least get a significant OCV bonus to cancel the aerodynamic/unbalanced thing. You can (as GM) take the BoS away when you like- is that really worth another 40 points in terms of added utility?

This is admittedly a strawman, but where would you draw the line? Can everyone have steel balls?

- Lets say the character is not CDA but Magneto. Same balls, nothing else has changed. Is this ok?

- What if every character wanted steel balls? GM, "Phase 12, you see Grond. He throws 4 steel balls at you."

- Better yet, why bother with steel balls at all? What if one of the other players doesn't want a steel balls but instead wants a large steel rod (pun intended!)? It should be as easily obtainable as steel balls. The rules for blocking with objects (6e2 58-59) say he gets a +1 or +2 DCV when blocking (equivalent to blocking with a car which seems to be our comparison) with his rod. CDA should have a steel rod too I think.

- What's to keep everyone from running around and fighting with their balls and rods (aside from the comics code)?

 

[edit]

I'm not on a crusade here, honestly. I think why I am not on board with this may be the number of weapons you ar asking for. 16 gives you enough ammo to use nothing but balls for an entire combat. If you want that many I have to assume you plan to make this your primary attack otherwise 1 or 2 would probably suffice. This allows you to avoid the roleplaying implications of hurling a car on a city street almost all the time. It also gives you something to throw in those rare circumstances where there normally wouldn't be, such as in an office building or on a plane. Also knowing my players, they would quickly want to draft a list of what other equipment they can carry and not pay for.

 

*powergaming warning*

Using the construct in my last post, you could have 2 steel balls (yes, pun!) for 14 points. Unified Power on your STR would save you 12 points, giving you a net cost of 2 pts. As you can pick up and throw your balls with one action (6e2 173) you don't really need very many, just don't throw them at anyone farther than a half move away. So for just 2 points, you can make everyone feel your balls!

[Sean Waters]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

I don't think that you should get steel balls for free, but I'm advocating that position to see what counters I get so I can better understand the big picture. I'm also interested in synergy and what effect, if any, it should have on costing: example -

 

Hardening: Aid 6d6, Trigger (Activating the Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action, Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action to reset; +1/2) (54 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about half of its effectiveness (Only works on inanimate objects; -1)

 

Would allow you to pick up pretty much anything and deliver 12d6 with a throw (assuming that it had at least 1 Body and 1 rPD to start with and you've got 60 STR). That costs 27 points and means you can always find something to throw. Now should you get extra utility from your high STR because you've spent 27 points on another power - arguably you should because more points spent should equal more utility - but thent he same argument applies to a team mate who can provide you with ammo - more points spent should mean more utility.

 

It feels wrong, but I'm struggling to see why that should be.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

This is interesting: to buy 8 steel balls as recoverable charges that you can throw at 'STR range' for 12d6 damage costs:

 

Blast 12d6, 8 Recoverable Charges (-0) (60 Active Points); OIF (-1/2), Limited Range (-1/4)

 

I bought them as OIF because I figured then could be dotted over the costume so you can't grab them all at once AND it is the same lim as 'object of opportunity'

 

This costs 60 active (34 real)

 

To make it truly like a thrown object you need this too:

 

Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) for up to 60 Active Points of Blast (30 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (Only applies if you have not already spent END on STR this phase; -1/2), OIF (-1/2)

 

Which is 30 active (15 real) because you only need to spend END on STR once per phase.

 

So that is 49 points to have the convenience of having Ammo to hand that does not have an increased range penalty.

 

To actually build the ability to throw objects of opportunity that STR gives for free would cost 60 active (22 real):

 

Blast 12d6, 8 Recoverable Charges (-0) (60 Active Points); OIF (-1/2), Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (Max damage limited to Body+DEF of object; -1/2), Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (May be subject to increased range modifiers; -1/2), Limited Range (-1/4)

 

...and you'd still need the reduced END NA, for a total of 39 points.

 

Armed with that we could say that the 'convenience of a ready supply of ammo' is worth only 10 points (the difference), or that STR (60 points of which costs 60 points) is still too much of a bargain...

[Utech]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

Sean, your figuring of the ability to throw objects of opportunity that STR gives for free neglects AOE possibilities...

[Ice9]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

Why would it need Reduced END if it already has Charges? If anything, it should be a limitation ("Costs END if you haven't spend END on Strength this phase", -1/4 maybe).

 

My two cents:

The Aid construction seems completely legitimate - I don't think there'd be any contention with a character who had that and used it to throw things. The Transform seems legitimate as well.

 

What makes it feel odd is that another character is the one providing the benefit - the throwing character isn't paying anything, and the other character has other uses for the Transform/Aid as well. However, I don't think that there's anything wrong with throwing specifically, I think it's just the normal situation that support characters can be very powerful.

 

I think it's worth keeping an eye on, in the same way a character with a bunch of Usable Simultaneously powers is worth keeping an eye on, and a whole team like that could be massively powerful. But it's not inherently wrong.