Balls of Steel

[Sean Waters]

So Cojones Del Acero, a superpowered being with 60 STR wants to carry round with him a bag of 16 steel balls round with him, that are made of case hardened steel (9 DEF) and are 4 Body, so he can throw them and do full damage (12d6) with them and, because they are handy dandy baseball sized objects of uniform density they are nicely balanced. (The character could have shaped rods that are aerodynamic and balanced, but 'Balls of Steel' was funnier.

 

So: do you change points for that?

 

I mean CDA can pick up a car and throw it for free, and whilst it is not exactly balanced and aerodynamic it makes up for that by being big enough to get an OCV bonus. There's almost always something to throw.

 

OTOH carrying ammo round with you that has no additional range modifier: you can throw one of these things a hundred metres or more - most combats are easily within that distance.

 

So, looked at one way you've got a 16 charge 12d6 physical EB, looked at another you've simply saved yourself the trouble of picking up an object of opportunity. Looked at another it is worth no more than a few skill levels to cancel out the additional range modifiers.

 

How would you rule that one? Charge for it, or not bother - and if you would charge, what basis would you do it on?

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

You wanted that special effect just so you could use that name, didn't you?

 

I'd probably do it as a physical energy blast with recoverable charges. How many similar objects is he likely to be finding laying on the ground. Besides, a properly-thrown spheroid is balanced and aerodynamic.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

So: do you change points for that?

 

Like many things in a HERO game, the correct answer is "It depends".

 

If you want reliable access to a ranged attack then I would ask that you buy a naked advantage on your STR (usable at range), 16 recoverable charges.

 

If you want them as something extra that you use when everything else has been tried or unavailable and you don't mind me removing your access whenever it is inconvenient for the story, then no charge...

 

Doc

[Daltwisney]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

If he was using for a single shot adventure, I might let it slide w/o points, but since it sounds like an 'always available' deal, I'd have him pay:

 

He always (barring losing the Focus, if it has one) has 16 shots available. One of the caveats of 'Objects of opportunity' is that they aren't always there. Or they aren't balanced and/or aerodynamic. Or someone might get a tad upset at you breaking their car over a Supervillain's head, doubly so if the car belongs to the Supervillain.

 

Baloo, just be happy that he didn't want to hit people with a metal bust of his brother Richard.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

See. the thing is, if you want to charge him points then you'd also have to decide what to charge if he decided to throw three or more balls at once. If you have built it in a way that cannot handle this then it breas the 'in game reality'.

 

Gotta be careful....

[Daltwisney]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

See. the thing is, if you want to charge him points then you'd also have to decide what to charge if he decided to throw three or more balls at once. If you have built it in a way that cannot handle this then it breas the 'in game reality'.

 

Gotta be careful....

 

You wouldn't have to charge him anything, that's what the Multiple Attack rules are for.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

Multiple attack is for throwing lots of different attacks at once, not the same attack many times. Surely that is autofire??

 

Doc

[Daltwisney]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

Multiple attack is for throwing lots of different attacks at once, not the same attack many times. Surely that is autofire??

 

Doc

 

Actually, the first bullet point under Multiple Attack refers to "multiple attacks against the same target with the same attack" (6E2, p 73).

This is functionally similar to Autofire, the tradeoff being Multiple Attack defaults to Full Phase (Rapid Attack can reduce this to 1/2 Phase), and Multiple Attack puts you at 1/2 DCV. Plus the 'to hit' mechanic is slightly different.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

Is that new to sixth edition?

 

[EDIT] It was explicitly dissallowed in FREd...

[Daltwisney]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

Is that new to sixth edition?

 

It is. I like the way the rules for it read, but I'm not starting my 6E game for about a month, so I don't know how they play yet.

I predict shock on the part of some of my Players the first time they encounter someone using them. (I've told the people who I know DON"T have the books, the ones that have them, not so much).

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

I dont think I am against it. I think that anything that can be done reliably with advantages should be possible without them at the cost of poorer defences, poorer OCV etc, just like the difference between combat manouevres and martial art maneouvres.

[Daltwisney]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

I dont think I am against it. I think that anything that can be done reliably with advantages should be possible without them at the cost of poorer defences' date=' poorer OCV etc, just like the difference between combat manouevres and martial art maneouvres.[/quote']

 

The easiest 'quick' explanation of it is an extension of the rules for "Multiple Move-bys" to apply to one or more attacks of any type. But yes, I don't think it is going to be a problem, but rather open up more tactical options.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

Is that new to sixth edition?

 

[EDIT] It was explicitly dissallowed in FREd...

 

Actually it was just called a different name:Rapid Fire (otherwise known as a ranged sweep)

from page 396 5ER:

 

This (Free but Optional) Manuever allows a character to fire a Ranged attack more than once in a Phase, either at a single target or at multiple targets. Rapid Fire requires a Full Phase and reduces the character to 1/2 DCV. He also suffers a cumulative -2 OCV Penalty for each shot after the first. If he misses any of his Attack Rolls, all remaining shots in that sequence automatically miss als

[Daltwisney]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

There ya go. 6E just extended it to allow for other attack types (HTH, Mental, M. Arts) in combination instead of just Ranged Attacks.

[Utech]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

Depends on the game I'm running. Sometimes I'm quite strict about spending points on this sort of thing, sometimes I'm not. If I'm loose on this, I'll also be loose on things other characters might find helpful.

 

Examples:

Raging Flamer will be allowed to carry a med kit specifically set up to treat burns.

Inter-Ned will be allowed to carry around a smart phone with Internet access that pretty much always works -- useful for looking up high-tech gadgets he can gadgeteer together.

Mental Babe will be allowed to apply makeup and wear high heels and a slinky dress (usually kept in her bag) when needed to be particularly appealing to unsuspecting menfolk in bars.

[the fox]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

London, Paris, Tokyo!

Those all could be part of the character description that have little effect in combat, "window-dressing", not a 12d6 Blast effect with reduced range penalties and lack of 'Object of Opportunity' limitations.

Would you call that window-dressing, or part of the character to pay for?

I'd allow them to be found after character creation as 'Objects of Opportunity', even let Senor Cajones seek balls of his specifications.

However, when he starts to use such a fine set of balls in combat regularly, I'll ask the player when he wishes to pay for his upgrade.

He can continue to use the 'Objects of Opportunity' rules, and find his replacement balls rarely present, or he can pay for replacement balls.

 

Remember also, the player here is specifying the specifications of these items, that they need to be 'extra' hard, have extra BODY, be balanced and aerodynamic, be smaller than Sparky the Wonder-dog.

These aren't rolling around wherever you go. Rarely would small objects with this much DEF and BODY be found. How do such small balls have extra body?

Would that be from extra mass? Just how big are these balls?

[Ragitsu]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

What exactly is a naked Advantage?

[Daltwisney]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

What exactly is a naked Advantage?

 

It is Power Advantage that is purchased separately from a Power. Such as AP on a portion of a character's STR, or the ability to make any gun up to a specified power-level Autofire. The power can be used without the advantage if desired.

 

The description and rules appear at the beginning of the Advantages section in both 5ER (p244) and 6E (6E1, p314).

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

Remember also, the player here is specifying the specifications of these items, that they need to be 'extra' hard, have extra BODY, be balanced and aerodynamic, be smaller than Sparky the Wonder-dog.

These aren't rolling around wherever you go. Rarely would small objects with this much DEF and BODY be found. How do such small balls have extra body?

Would that be from extra mass? Just how big are these balls?

Well, from the OP:

So Cojones Del Acero' date=' a superpowered being with 60 STR wants to carry round with him a bag of 16 steel balls round with him, that are made of [b']case hardened steel[/b] (9 DEF) and are 4 Body, so he can throw them and do full damage (12d6) with them and, because they are handy dandy baseball sized objects of uniform density they are nicely balanced. (The character could have shaped rods that are aerodynamic and balanced, but 'Balls of Steel' was funnier.

Sounds like some kind of ball bearings to me.

[torchwolf]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

Sounds like some kind of ball bearings to me.

Pretty large ball bearings though.

 

Dismantling the Environment:

Basketball-sized ball bearings might be located as OIF by locating the nearest tanker ship and smashing an engine or two; slightly lesser-sized ones could be scrounged from a construction site vehicle, possibly a really large truck or 18-wheeler; etc. Doing this might obviously have some consequences in the shape of owners complaining and suing the character, much as tearing up lamp posts to craft impromptu spears/bats might.

 

Incidentally, wouldn't DEF 9 BODY 4 objects be damaged from using a 12d6 attack? (taking 3 BODY per use)

I may be forgetting something here though.

 

The obvious advantage of buying those things is there would be no concerns about how to build/acquire replacements (assuming they were built as Foci), nor would the GM occasionally go "You know that bag with the Balls of Steel you carry over your shoulder? Well, it just broke, because , and now the Balls are rolling down the street and causing traffic havoc. OK, your Phase."

 

EDIT: Having looked around a bit due to curiosity, ball bearings the size of basketballs seem to be non-existent because of engineering impracticality (golfball-sized probably being possible).

Thus, Balls of Steel this hardy and large would seem to necessitate special order of such, in most campaign worlds.

Then again, in a campaign world with a character having STR 60 this might not be an issue.

[the fox]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

It's up to the GM to determine ALL object's DEF and BODY, NOT the player.

Some might consider such strong ball bearings, composed of the material specified (carbon migrated into the surface of low-carbon steel, forming a graduated coating), to weigh on the order of 6.4 kg. in order to obtain 3 BODY while retaining 9 BODY. It's close enough that you can hand-wave in another BOD, so the balls aren't very large, but their still the stretching of the rules to make "semi-Unobtanium" balls that are half the size and weight as they should be, so that they resemble more common ball bearings more easily found.

Link for facts on balls, case hardening, or something essential for world domination, the humble ball screw.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_(bearing)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Case_hardening

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_screw

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

If my character spends 50 points on Wealth, can he have custom weaponry and powered armor to the maximum extent of campaign specifications? Look how much he spent on wealth - he has more money than the entire world supply! Oh, and he's also purchasing all the round metal objects in the world, as well as everything else any other character can use as a focus, so anyone with a focus no longer has their powers. And he's hiring all the people that would otherwise work as thugs or agents for various villains and villainous organizations to instead work for him with better pay and working conditions, so no one can have any agents or thugs any more.

 

What?

 

It's a simple, logical extension of his wealth.

 

The simple answer is that the player wants to have access to an ability beyond those his points already paid for. Unless he wants his access to this ability to be entirely at the discretion of the GM, then he has to pay the points to buy the ability.

 

Sure, he can pick up a car and throw it. That requires one phase to grab and lift the car, and a second to target the person he wishes to throw it at. he may need to expend some time and effort moving to the car - he can't just close in to reduce his range modifiers. And he's not carrying a few cars around in his pocket just in case he needs one when transported to the Dimension of Doom. He wants a ranged attack available at his discretion, then he should pay for a ranged attack available at his discretion. 12d6, 16 charge EB is 60 points. Now, let's limit it. Probably costs END on the same basis as his STR - let's say that's 1/2 END and give him a -1/4 limitation. Certainly a focus, so let's call it OIF (he could take OAF if he wants opponents able to just grab his backpack of 16 steel ball bearings), so that's -1/2. I can't see them being spread for OCV or to hit an area - it's fixed at baseball size - , nor can he multiple power attack with STR since he's using his STR to throw the blasted thing, so that's another -1/4. Technically, it's Range based on STR, a further -1/4. That's a real cost of 27.

 

Or he can slap it into a 60 AP Multipower with other Brick Tricks if he wants.

[torchwolf]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

If my character spends 50 points on Wealth, can he have custom weaponry and powered armor to the maximum extent of campaign specifications? Look how much he spent on wealth - he has more money than the entire world supply! Oh, and he's also purchasing all the round metal objects in the world, as well as everything else any other character can use as a focus, so anyone with a focus no longer has their powers. And he's hiring all the people that would otherwise work as thugs or agents for various villains and villainous organizations to instead work for him with better pay and working conditions, so no one can have any agents or thugs any more.

 

What?

 

It's a simple, logical extension of his wealth.

50 points of Wealth can of course also technically allow a character to control the world economy, thereby being able to threaten every nation in the world to do what he wants. Effectively ruling the world by economic means, the character has now accomplished what many world conquering villains have failed to do. There is no end of potential abuse of this ability.

Once, I had a character with an unlimited bank account and no particular four-color mentality, so I just outbid the employer of the mercenary villains I was supposed to fight and had them working for me instead (Yes, that campaign crashed for a number of reasons).

 

This is why I would normally require a PC having 15 or more points of Wealth to work out how that works within the campaign world.

 

Compared to that, having a couple Balls of Steel in a bag is a relatively minor issue, but I agree it should be paid for if it transcends objects of opportunity limits; otherwise, the Balls should probably be expediently disposed of by the GM, like any looted piece of super-weaponry (which would of course develop malfunctions, get stolen, be repossessed by the original owner, etc.).

[Daltwisney]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

nor can he multiple power attack with STR since he's using his STR to throw the blasted thing' date=' so that's another -1/4.[/quote']

 

Is this just a Limited Power Limitation you thought appropriate, or is it in the book somewhere? I don't recall seeing it, and I can't seem to find it anywhere now that I'm looking. Closest I find is the "Cannot be Multiple Attacked (-1/2)" suggested for Crossbows and other items with a reload time.

[Daltwisney]

Re: Balls of Steel

 

Pretty large ball bearings though.

 

Dismantling the Environment:

Basketball-sized ball bearings might be located as OIF by locating the nearest tanker ship and smashing an engine or two; slightly lesser-sized ones could be scrounged from a construction site vehicle, possibly a really large truck or 18-wheeler; etc. Doing this might obviously have some consequences in the shape of owners complaining and suing the character, much as tearing up lamp posts to craft impromptu spears/bats might.

 

Incidentally, wouldn't DEF 9 BODY 4 objects be damaged from using a 12d6 attack? (taking 3 BODY per use)

I may be forgetting something here though.

 

The obvious advantage of buying those things is there would be no concerns about how to build/acquire replacements (assuming they were built as Foci), nor would the GM occasionally go "You know that bag with the Balls of Steel you carry over your shoulder? Well, it just broke, because , and now the Balls are rolling down the street and causing traffic havoc. OK, your Phase."

 

EDIT: Having looked around a bit due to curiosity, ball bearings the size of basketballs seem to be non-existent because of engineering impracticality (golfball-sized probably being possible).

Thus, Balls of Steel this hardy and large would seem to necessitate special order of such, in most campaign worlds.

Then again, in a campaign world with a character having STR 60 this might not be an issue.

 

Ball bearings on the order of 2.5" diameter are readily available, and a standard Baseball (which is quite different from a Basketball, and was the size mentioned by the OP) are 2.875" to 3" in diameter. How available they are 'in the field' may be another matter, but they certainly exist.

A bit more complicated could be the toughness (DEF and BODY) of such items, but in a Superhero world where someone with a 60 STR exists, I think that's pretty much a decision for the GM to make. If he thinks it's reasonable, then it is, no Materials Engineering required.