Parsing and refining skills

[drsid]

How finely should one parse skills? It seems that the skills listed in the book are relatively broad categories. For example, "computer skills" appears to be very broad. Lets say I want to make a computer specialist character, whether a hacker or otherwise.

 

Is it better to represent that person's increased skill by parsing out computer skills into "hacking skills," "data search," etc, or is it better to represent the refinement by having the person simply purchase professional and knowledge skills in various computer related areas that would then be complementary to the broader computer skill?

[Rapier]

Re: Parsing and refining skills

 

Depends on how you, as a GM, want to go in detail.

 

If you are going to have a lot of computer stuff in your game, maybe there should be a Hacking, Data Mining, etc. Or maybe it's just good enough to have a general Computer skill.

 

There was a thread around here in the past week or so about what skills were needed for a trial. This is a similar thing. You reach a point of diminishing returns where you can get too granular with skills and players are forced to spend hundreds of points.

 

In this case, you might give them a generic computer skills roll and then maybe use skill levels (+1 with Hacking, Data Mining and Security). Which is actually a good example of another way to break out skill levels!

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Parsing and refining skills

 

Is it better to represent that person's increased skill by parsing out computer skills into "hacking skills' date='" "data search," etc, or is it better to represent the refinement by having the person simply purchase professional and knowledge skills in various computer related areas that would then be complementary to the broader computer skill?[/quote']

 

You may want to take a step back and ask yourself, "How is this character going to use computers in-game?" If the campaign is very computer-centric (for example, all the characters are netrunners in a cyberpunk setting), then purchasing multiple Professional and Knowledge skills that relate to programming languages, operating systems, security exploits, and the like makes sense. In most other cases, a high Computer Programming skill (and maybe Electronics) is all you need.

[drsid]

Re: Parsing and refining skills

 

I used computer programming as an example. My main concern, though is more along the lines of having enough variety in skills to allow characters to differentiate themselves. For example, if all you have is computer programming, what is to keep every single character from spending a few points on computer programming.

 

Or, in a high technology setting, I would imagine computer programming may even qualify as a everyman skill. So, what differentiates the hacker or software designer from the "everyman?" I think the easy solution is to simply have the hacker take KS in various aspects of programming that can be used as complementary skills, something the everyman or other PC's wouldn't necessary have.

 

As you point out IndianaJoe3, KS and PS's probably are the way to go rather than parsing out additional skills.

 

Rapier: sorry, but I'm a little dense. Can you elaborate on what you mean about using skill levels for specific subsets. I thought that if the person buys a skill level it would apply specifically to computer programming. How would you have skill levels for those separate skills without actually just creating them as skills to be bought?

[Rapier]

Re: Parsing and refining skills

 

Rapier: sorry' date=' but I'm a little dense. Can you elaborate on what you mean about using skill levels for specific subsets. I thought that if the person buys a skill level it would apply specifically to computer programming. How would you have skill levels for those separate skills without actually just creating them as skills to be bought?[/quote']

 

Similar to how you could have a skill that is +1 OCV with Knives.

 

You could have a Charm skill and have +2 with Charm, Only vs Women (or Dwarves or Robots or Weasels).

 

Similarly you could have Computer Programming skill and take +1 Only for Fortran. It's a way to allow a character to concentrate in a particular area.

[drsid]

Re: Parsing and refining skills

 

ah, so you would use the limitations rules for power and apply them to skills to reduce the cost? So, a normal increase in charm would cost 2 points, but if I limit my charming to robotic weasels, it only costs 1 point?

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Parsing and refining skills

 

I used computer programming as an example. My main concern' date=' though is more along the lines of having enough variety in skills to allow characters to differentiate themselves. For example, if all you have is computer programming, what is to keep every single character from spending a few points on computer programming.[/quote']

 

There are lots of things to spend points on. Going back to my previous example, if the focus of the game isn't computer hacking, then not many people will buy Computer Programming. If the focus of the game is computer hacking, then you need to provide enough detail so characters can differentiate themselves.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Parsing and refining skills

 

The detail, or lack of, in any given games Skill System depends entirely on the game.

 

In some games everyone having 'Computer Programming' is all you need, and the Master Hacker is the one with the 15- Roll versus everyone else's 11-

 

If you're, for another example, running CSI Hero then breaking down Criminology or Forensic Medicine into composite skills based on specialties is a really good idea (you have the finger print person, the blood specialist, the chemical analyst, etc).

But, if the games CSI component if just a means to an end (i.e. the game doesn't even remotely focus on it, and it may not show up more than every couple sessions) then Forensic Medicine could easily do all of that in a single skill roll.

[Rapier]

Re: Parsing and refining skills

 

ah' date=' so you would use the limitations rules for power and apply them to skills to reduce the cost? So, a normal increase in charm would cost 2 points, but if I limit my charming to robotic weasels, it only costs 1 point?[/quote']

 

YES! Skills can be modified just like Powers (as can Characteristics). In this case Charm (3 pts), could be modified by +4 Levels with Charm, Only vs Robotic Weasels (8 pts with a -2 Limitation for about 3pts total). So for 6 points the character has a Charm roll at PRE and a Charm vs Robotic Weasels at PRE+4.

[Lucius]

Re: Parsing and refining skills

 

ah' date=' so you would use the limitations rules for power and apply them to skills to reduce the cost? So, a normal increase in charm would cost 2 points, but if I limit my charming to robotic weasels, it only costs 1 point?[/quote']

 

You can also have a broad group defined for a skill level, that applies to a given skill only in certan circumstances.

 

Example: Ranger Aragord has bought Skill Levels defined as "Wedded to the Forest."

 

These apply to Survival, Tracking, Stealth, Concealment, Climbing, Shadowing, even Security Systems, and various PS and KS skills such as KS: Flora and Fauna, only while in woodlands.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Skill Levels: Palindromedary Skills

[drsid]

Re: Parsing and refining skills

 

wow. the depth and breadth of this system is staggering.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Parsing and refining skills

 

Should you ever wish to explore possible expansions and/or refinements of Skills and Skill use, The Ultimate Skill goes into as much depth and breadth as you could ever possibly want or need. Although a Fifth Edition book, the great majority of it applies equally to Sixth. This forum thread summarizes what the book is about: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/63197-The-Ultimate-Skill

[Utech]

Re: Parsing and refining skills

 

Another way to handle this is to decide that any broad Skill is the average of minor Skills you could parse out of it. Have players to parse out as many minor Skills you feel comfortable with (always check) and then let them work out the numbers so that the average fits the broad Skill.

 

Example:

Player Bob takes the Skill: Computer Skills at 13- but would really like to define the skill more precisely. He parses out the follow minor Skills:

Hacking

Data Search

Programming

Office Skills (word processing, email, spreadsheets, presentations, etc.)

Player Bob clears his list with his GM and then sets the levels on his minor Skills to average out to 13-. He decides to take:

Hacking 9-

Data Search 13-

Programming 9-

Office Skills 21-

With GM permission, Player Bob's character is now distinct from other characters with the broad Computer Skills at 13-. Bob's character doesn't know much about how computer programs work and would have a hard time writing one, but he's simply incredible when it comes to general office skills. He'll definitely be the go-to guy when it comes to writing up reports, making spreadsheets, creating presentations, and sending it off by email to the right people. His work will be finished with incredible speed and by leveraging everything those programs can do, the content of his work may well be extra persuasive or effective.

 

[drsid]

Re: Parsing and refining skills

 

thanks for the reference, Lord Liaden; and, interesting take on averaging and parsing, Utech.

 

With regard to all these 5th edition references, it would be cool if there was a FAQ about which books are still fully useable and which ones are totally obsolete. Maybe even a book by book commentary on what changes would need to be made. Especially, for those of us entering the Hero System with 6th edition. Right now, we are either limited to waiting for 6th edition versions of material, or hesitantly have to decide which 5th edition books to buy.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Parsing and refining skills

 

There's no such thing as Totally Obsolete.

 

the closest you're going to get to that concept is books that are nothing but Power Builds (Superpowers Database, Equipment Guide, Gadgets And Gear) or Enemies Books. Both of those types require the most conversion - and are the most likely candidates for updating to 6th as time goes along.

 

Everything else is a mix of Mechanics and Information. And the Information is still usable regardless of system.

[torchwolf]

Re: Parsing and refining skills

 

thanks for the reference, Lord Liaden; and, interesting take on averaging and parsing, Utech.

 

With regard to all these 5th edition references, it would be cool if there was a FAQ about which books are still fully useable and which ones are totally obsolete. Maybe even a book by book commentary on what changes would need to be made. Especially, for those of us entering the Hero System with 6th edition. Right now, we are either limited to waiting for 6th edition versions of material, or hesitantly have to decide which 5th edition books to buy.

I agree, a book by book commentary should probably be compiled.

 

Ultimate Skill, incidentally, lists quite detailed guidelines for using the Computer Programming skill (including a brief history of computing), though for Matrix-running purposes, the rules in the APG might be more appropriate (Computer Languages are not listed, but these tend to be rendered obsolete with such speed that it would be a bit impractical to use them, and compilers makes the issue even murkier).

 

As for a general overview of what 5th edition material is usable easily with 6th edition: Most, actually.

 

The Ultimate Skill mentioned is probably the 5th edition book that is almost unaffected by the change to 6th edition - Seduction being renamed to Charm being the single definite change. The Advanced Players Guide updates the Interaction Skills from the references to the 5th edition Characteristic Comeliness (now replaced in function by the Striking Appearance Talent), and a few gadgets for use with certain skills would be slightly differently designed, but referring to 6E1 (Volume 1 of 6th edition) p20-21 should make such conversions a snap.

 

The same goes for, in particular, all the genre and setting books published:

Champions, Dark Champions, Fantasy Hero, Ninja Hero, Post-Apocalyptic Hero, Pulp Hero, Star Hero, Urban Fantasy Hero.

Atlantean Age, Tuala Morn, Turakian Age and Valdorian Age will probably not be updated, nor most of the other genre and setting books.

 

Champions for 6th edition are reportedly at the printer, and it has been mentioned that Fantasy Hero and the Grimoires will updated, probably during 2010.

 

Of the Ultimate Books, the only ones with planned updates are Ultimate Martial Artist and Ultimate Vehicle (although some of Ultimate Energy Projector found its way into the APG and some will be revised in the upcoming Champions Powers).

 

 

IMPORTANT: Any of my info might be rendered inaccurate after the February 13 new release schedule has been announced.

 

If you're interested in a brief comparison to the rules for 5th edition, the Hero System Resource Kit includes very brief descriptions of all Powers, Advantages, and Limitations used in 5th edition along with costs, though if you have Hero Designer, you can also see these costs and some notes if you start up a 5th edition character - but don't try to convert by switching from 5th edition to 6th edition in HD, you might get untrackable errors.

 

A quick tip for usefulness in general (including comments on game system dependence of a particular book) is taking a look at the quite extensive and well written reviews posted by ghost-angel:

Hero Games Product Line

[Rapier]

Re: Parsing and refining skills

 

If you are using 6th Edition rules, probably 95% of 5th edition stuff will work fine, and 85% of 4th edition will work fine.

 

If you are using 5th Edition rules, 95% of 4th edition will work fine.

 

At the end of the day, you can use any 4th edition or higher book in a 6th edition game without too many conversion problems. If you have HeroDesigner, those differences are even less of an issue.

[Opal]

Re: Parsing and refining skills

 

Skills have never exactly been Hero's stron suit. While powers are beautifully effects-based, and characteristics were pretty good (and still aren't bad, I suppose), skills have always caused a problem, particularly with point-inflation.

 

The problem is that each edition from 1st through 4th added skills, often a lot of skills. And, on top of that, since Champions II, there have been player-defineable skills with an unlimitted degree of granularity. This skill proliferation meant that being a lawyer in your secred ID went from a line in the Secret ID disad ('Lawyer') to a 2-pt 'background' skill, to a package deal, to whatever it is now - you could easily spend 60 or 100 points on being a really good lawyer in 5th, and 6th aparently hasn't changed it apreciably.

 

My advice would be to put as much of a lid as you can on that aspect of the skill system. Buy those listed 3-point skills that cover what your character does. If you want to differentiate him, buy a few levels. Then, buy a few, a /very/ few, player-defined 'speciality' skills that serve only to differentiate the character a little, and add to the occassional complementary skill level. Don't let lack of a player-defined skill keep a character with the closest aplicable real 3pt skill from doing something, and you might be OK.