10. Curiosity – Why An 8-point Combat Skill Level

[MistWing]

This is more of a ‘curiosity’ type question. I was going through the Heroes book and read the section on Combat Skill Levels. It occurred to me that the 8-point CSL seemed odd (not that I ever use it). Why 8 points?

 

An 8 point CSL gives you +1 OCV OR +1 DCV, determined at the start of your phase. For 1 more point, you get +1 OCV AND +1 DCV, all the time. Plus you might get a +1 bonus to all of your Dex-rolls. Plus, for either +0 or +1 points, you get a +1 to your SPD.

 

Given all this, I was wondering why an 8-point CSL exists? BTW: This is just curiosity. Like I said, I never use the 8-point CSL. I use either 3-point skill levels (for one power) or 10-point skill levels (for everything).

 

Thanks

MistWing SilverTail

[Pattern Ghost]

The 8 pt CSL also applies to ego combat and can be used to boost damage in heroic games, neither of which DEX can do. Also handy if you're working under an NCM restriction and can't buy more DEX.

 

It's not the best bang for the buck, but can be handy depending on the game.

[Guest Keneton]

8 point CSLs can also be used for breakfall, acrobatics, dive for cover and other combat type tasks. they can also be used in a dex roll or fast draw roll to beat someone in holding situations.

 

As far as why uy insted of dex, well sometimes the dex is inapprropriate conception wise and or outside of a normal chracteristic maxima for heroic campaigns.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Pattern Ghost

The 8 pt CSL also applies to ego combat and can be used to boost damage in heroic games, neither of which DEX can do. Also handy if you're working under an NCM restriction and can't buy more DEX.

 

It's not the best bang for the buck, but can be handy depending on the game.

Agreed. Also, its a stepping stone towards Overall levels. Upgrade +1 HtH to +1 All Combat 1 session, and then to +1 Overall the next, playing off your attempt to broaden your skill in-game. Makes more sense than jumping straight from +1 HtH to +1 Every Thing Under the Sun (ie Overall).

[Hugh Neilson]

+1 OCV and +1 DCV will cost you 18 in a heroic campaign once you beat that 20 DEX.

[prestidigitator]

Originally posted by Keneton

8 point CSLs can also be used for breakfall, acrobatics, dive for cover and other combat type tasks. they can also be used in a dex roll or fast draw roll to beat someone in holding situations.

I've never seen this in anything but House Rules. Where do you get this?

 

Combat Skill Levels are also not affected by Drains or Transforms that reduce your Dex. If they are affected by Adjustment Powers, they must be reduced by 8 points to have any effect, rather than 3 points. It even seems to me that you might be able to buy them Persistent (particularly if they are granted through a Focus), whereas this might make less sense for Dex.

[Guest Keneton]

Faq

 

Can a character apply Combat Skill Levels or Skill Levels to Dive For Cover?

 

A: A character cannot apply two-point CSLs to Dive For Cover, since CSLs do not apply to DEX Rolls. However, he could apply appropriate more expensive CSLs to increase his DCV while he dives.

 

Provided a character has not already allocated his Skill Levels in the Segment in which he Aborts, he could use them to improve his DEX Roll with Dive For Cover (assuming the Levels are of a type that can apply to DEX Rolls).

 

 

 

[Bartman]

Originally posted by Pattern Ghost

and can be used to boost damage in heroic games

As of 5th it can boost damage in Superheroic campaigns too.

[Pattern Ghost]

Originally posted by Bartman

As of 5th it can boost damage in Superheroic campaigns too.

 

Not mine.

 

Seriously, thanks, though. Another section of the rules I'll need to read more closely for changes.

[prestidigitator]

Originally posted by Bartman

As of 5th it can boost damage in Superheroic campaigns too.

They could boost damage for superheros in 4th edition, too. The suggested methods have always been different between heroic and superheroic (DCs vs. straight damage value).

[Toadmaster]

The concept works nicely for FH, for rounded fighting types. It might not be the most cost effective though but it makes the character flexible. For example you could buy +5 with swords for 15pts, or +3 with melee for 15 points or +1 with swords (3), +1 with melee (5) and +1 all combat (8) for 16 pts. The first is clearly the most cost effective IF you have a sword, the second is more flexible, the third will match the second with a sword, but beats all if their weapon of choice is not available. Also I don't know if it was a house rule or from an earlier version of FH but we only allowed CSL's to be used against missile weapons (dodge, block) if it was used with a shield (3pt weapon and shield or 5pt melee when a shield was used) but allowed 8pt all combat levels to be used against missile weapons regardless of shield use. They are also nice if you have a character who is skilled with both missile and melee weapons.

 

Also in a heroic game Dex gets expensive fast since most seem to go with at least a 15 dex and 20 is the cap. Also 2 points here and there adds up quickly. But basically it comes down to character concept over point effectiveness.

[Gary]

Originally posted by prestidigitator

I've never seen this in anything but House Rules. Where do you get this?

 

Combat Skill Levels are also not affected by Drains or Transforms that reduce your Dex. If they are affected by Adjustment Powers, they must be reduced by 8 points to have any effect, rather than 3 points. It even seems to me that you might be able to buy them Persistent (particularly if they are granted through a Focus), whereas this might make less sense for Dex.

 

In practice, this is a non-advantage for CSL's. That's because almost every character has other dex to drain as well. Example, a person with 26 dex and no CSL's has 9 CV and loses 6 dex to a drain. He still has 7 CV. A person with 20 dex and 2 CSL's has 7+2 CV. If he gets drained of 6 dex, he drops to 5+2 CV. Only if an attack is high enough to drain all your dex will the CSL guy have any advantage, and his OCV or DCV of 2 is of extremely marginal utility anyway in such a case.

[Tasha]

Re: 10. Curiosity – Why An 8-point Combat Skill Level

 

Originally posted by MistWing

This is more of a ‘curiosity’ type question. I was going through the Heroes book and read the section on Combat Skill Levels. It occurred to me that the 8-point CSL seemed odd (not that I ever use it). Why 8 points?

 

An 8 point CSL gives you +1 OCV OR +1 DCV, determined at the start of your phase. For 1 more point, you get +1 OCV AND +1 DCV, all the time. Plus you might get a +1 bonus to all of your Dex-rolls. Plus, for either +0 or +1 points, you get a +1 to your SPD.

 

Given all this, I was wondering why an 8-point CSL exists? BTW: This is just curiosity. Like I said, I never use the 8-point CSL. I use either 3-point skill levels (for one power) or 10-point skill levels (for everything).

 

Thanks

MistWing SilverTail

 

It exists for people like me who don't want a character who has a +1 with everything. It gives me the ability to build the character I want instead of a character dictated by what is more "Cost effective". For different characters I use different level costs based on what they know. ie Perhaps I am running a character who is a combat expert but not one who is good at every thing she does. Also some GMs don't allow 10pt levels. These GMs believe that Overall levels are too powerful for the cost.

 

Tasha

[prestidigitator]

Originally posted by Gary

In practice, this is a non-advantage for CSL's. That's because almost every character has other dex to drain as well. Example, a person with 26 dex and no CSL's has 9 CV and loses 6 dex to a drain. He still has 7 CV. A person with 20 dex and 2 CSL's has 7+2 CV. If he gets drained of 6 dex, he drops to 5+2 CV. Only if an attack is high enough to drain all your dex will the CSL guy have any advantage, and his OCV or DCV of 2 is of extremely marginal utility anyway in such a case.

Hmm. Costs, assuming NCM:

• Dex 26: 66 points
• Dex 20 + 2 Overall Combat Levels: 48
• Dex 10 + 6 Overall Combat Levels: 48

The guy with 6 CSLs can have an OCV or DCV of 6 when his Dex is gone. By the way, the guy with a Dex of 26 loses a point of Dex per 3 active points drained, even though he payed 6 points to get each.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Re: 10. Curiosity – Why An 8-point Combat Skill Level

 

Originally posted by Tasha

It exists for people like me who don't want a character who has a +1 with everything. It gives me the ability to build the character I want instead of a character dictated by what is more "Cost effective". For different characters I use different level costs based on what they know. ie Perhaps I am running a character who is a combat expert but not one who is good at every thing she does. Also some GMs don't allow 10pt levels. These GMs believe that Overall levels are too powerful for the cost.

Right on! Points are only part of it. I personally think that, even if 8-point CSLs are a little less useful relative to their cost (I don't think they are way out of proportion), it is not enough to keep me from buying them. So I will when they fit the concept.

[Gary]

Originally posted by prestidigitator

Hmm. Costs, assuming NCM:

• Dex 26: 66 points
• Dex 20 + 2 Overall Combat Levels: 48
• Dex 10 + 6 Overall Combat Levels: 48

The guy with 6 CSLs can have an OCV or DCV of 6 when his Dex is gone. By the way, the guy with a Dex of 26 loses a point of Dex per 3 active points drained, even though he payed 6 points to get each.

 

That's only with NCM. Incidentally, the 26 dex saves 6 pts more than the 20 dex because of the speed savings.

 

However, I can just shift down the dexes and my comparison will still work. 20 dex vs 14 dex and 2 CSLs. You would have to drain >14 dex before it makes any difference. Actually, the 2 CSL guy could still use his levels at - Dex, but he would have to make extra dex rolls to move or do any physical actions at all. The 20 dex guy has 6 pts extra "buffer" to avoid this effect.

[SDK]

I think the question is why do 8 point levels exist, while dex is as cheap as it is, and 8 point can be created as needed by limiting overall levels. Only for Combat is at least a -1/4.

 

The smaller levels are there for a reason, but 8 points cost more than the dex would to raise OCV and DCV [remember the figured spd]. They're 33% more expensive than something that does twice as much.

[cutsleeve]

NCM is a good reason to have 8 pt combat skill levels. By saying oh well yeah but thats only for games with NCM you are devaluating the entire Hero system. The vast majority of settings which people run using hero system usually involve none superhero or none planet smashing hero's usually also including NCM. Also you have forgotten character concept. Some characters dont have a high dex but are highly proficient in combat this is simulated by giving him 8pt combat skill levels to show his overall capability with a wide variety of combat not only hitting and dodging but also being able to strike key points for more destrucive effect. He isnt terrible fast just horribley accurate and amazingly deadly. These are all things which are part of that CSL the choice between ocv dcv and damage. All these things are why 8pt CSL's exsist. just because it may be overall cheaper to go with Dex doesnt mean that it should be removed or that all characters would even have a dex higher then 20 some characters would not cut and dry.

 

for 9 points you get 1 8Pt CSL and a point to spend on something else. or 1 more ocv and dcv from dex.

 

for 30 points you get 3 8pt CSL's and 3 2pt CSL's or 2 3pt CSL's or 1 5pt CSL and an extra point to spend someplace else orrrr 3 oce dcv and 1 spd. soooooo lets break that down.

 

Bubbu Smith bys his dex up to 20 he has a ocv/dcv of 7 and a spd of 3

 

SGT. BOHICA buys 3 8pt CSL's and 3 2pt CSL's with his punch

 

now these 2 has an arguement over some lady at a bar when SGT. BOHICA was on leave. and they decided to take it outside. they Both have average stats 10 and average figures statistics. Now theyre gonna settle this like men and have a fist fight. now lets check this ok Bubba has 7 ocv and dcv. and the SGT. has 3 Ocv/Dcv +3 ocv with his fists. Now the Ocv for using fists arent so far apart and SGT. about the same and Bubba has more then enough so lets say that when their turns come up they hit each other . ok the fight starts bubba has a spd 3 so he goes first on phase 4 so he walks up and clocks SGT. BOHICA and lets say they both do average damage when they hit so Bubba has a 10 strength so he does 6. now SGT. BOHICA has his phase at 6 and he moves 2 of his 8pt CSL's to damage and one to OCV and hits Bubbu he has a 10 strength so he gets 2d6 to damage and another 2d6 from the CSL's he will do 4d6 which averages to 12. Both men have 2 pd so they both soak 2 points of it leaving Bohica taking 4 damage and Bubba taking 10 now lets say they keep hitting each other for the rest of the turn with average damage SGT. will end up taking 12 damage and Bubba will be knocked out on phase 12. SGT.BOHICA wins Hoorah.

[prestidigitator]

Originally posted by cutsleeve

NCM is a good reason to have 8 pt combat skill levels. By saying oh well yeah but thats only for games with NCM you are devaluating the entire Hero system. The vast majority of settings which people run using hero system usually involve none superhero or none planet smashing hero's usually also including NCM. Also you have forgotten character concept. Some characters dont have a high dex but are highly proficient in combat this is simulated by giving him 8pt combat skill levels to show his overall capability with a wide variety of combat not only hitting and dodging but also being able to strike key points for more destrucive effect. He isnt terrible fast just horribley accurate and amazingly deadly. These are all things which are part of that CSL the choice between ocv dcv and damage. All these things are why 8pt CSL's exsist. just because it may be overall cheaper to go with Dex doesnt mean that it should be removed or that all characters would even have a dex higher then 20 some characters would not cut and dry.

Agreed. I don't think 8-point CSLs have much of a place in superheroic games anyway. I think superheros should be buying Dex instead.

 

As a GM, just make these CSLs more worth it. Give them little benefits here and there which you never get from Dex. For example, let them apply to Tactics rolls under some conditions, or add them to a character's Per rolls when determining if (s)he is surprised when already in combat (even if the levels are currently being used for OCV, DCV, or damage). Little things like that. Maybe not even all the time. Just enough for them to be a little bit cool as skills unto themselves.

 

...and he moves 2 of his 8pt CSL's to damage and one to OCV and hits Bubbu he has a 10 strength so he gets 2d6 to damage and another 2d6 from the CSL's...

Actually 2 CSLs allocated to damage would only add +1d6 normal damage. But you are right that this is an application which you can't mimic with Dex.

[Gary]

Originally posted by cutsleeve

Bubbu Smith bys his dex up to 20 he has a ocv/dcv of 7 and a spd of 3

 

SGT. BOHICA buys 3 8pt CSL's and 3 2pt CSL's with his punch

 

now these 2 has an arguement over some lady at a bar when SGT. BOHICA was on leave. and they decided to take it outside. they Both have average stats 10 and average figures statistics. Now theyre gonna settle this like men and have a fist fight. now lets check this ok Bubba has 7 ocv and dcv. and the SGT. has 3 Ocv/Dcv +3 ocv with his fists. Now the Ocv for using fists arent so far apart and SGT. about the same and Bubba has more then enough so lets say that when their turns come up they hit each other . ok the fight starts bubba has a spd 3 so he goes first on phase 4 so he walks up and clocks SGT. BOHICA and lets say they both do average damage when they hit so Bubba has a 10 strength so he does 6. now SGT. BOHICA has his phase at 6 and he moves 2 of his 8pt CSL's to damage and one to OCV and hits Bubbu he has a 10 strength so he gets 2d6 to damage and another 2d6 from the CSL's he will do 4d6 which averages to 12. Both men have 2 pd so they both soak 2 points of it leaving Bohica taking 4 damage and Bubba taking 10 now lets say they keep hitting each other for the rest of the turn with average damage SGT. will end up taking 12 damage and Bubba will be knocked out on phase 12. SGT.BOHICA wins Hoorah.

 

Bubbu has 7 OCV 7 DCV and 3 spd. Bohica has 3 base OCV/DCV and 2 spd with 6 CSL's of which he is using 2 for damage.

 

If we allow tricks such as Bubbu dodging Bohica's 2 actions a turn and attacking using his extra spd, Bubbu easily wins. However, let's assume it's a straight slugfest with all levels in OCV.

 

Bubbu has 3 attacks a turn, each hitting on 15-. That's about 95% chance. He averages 5 stun through defenses each hit, so he does roughly 3*5*.95=14.25 stun per turn.

 

Bohica has 2 attacks a turn, each hitting on 11-. That's a 62.5% chance. He averages 8.5 stun through defenses each hit, so he does roughly 2*8.5*.625=10.625 stun per turn.

 

Bohica loses even a slugfest and without Bubbu really taking maximum advantage of his extra speed.

[Pattern Ghost]

Of course, when the Mental Midget tries to mind control Bubbu and Sgt. BOHICA, the Sarge will have 3 CSLs added to his ECV that Bubbu doesn't...

 

8 pt levels aren't as effective as other constructs in a straight up physical fight, but they do add some flexibility. For characters that are specialits at certain modes of combat, 5 and 3 point CSLs are way more effective. Then again, should it be surprising that specilizing trades off flexibility for effectiveness? Seems about right. Maybe if 8 pt levels were made even more flexible, they'd be worth the tradeoff. Maybe not.

 

Look at it this way. You have a melee- or ranged- oriented character. Which would you think is better:

 

3 pt CSL for 3 moves, a MP or MA

PLUS

5 pt. CSL for DCV only

 

Giving +1 OCV AND +1 DCV

 

OR

 

8 pt CSL giving +1 OCV OR +1 DCV OR +1 ECV.

 

Pretty much no contest as to where you spend your pts on CSLs, let alone DEX, which for an extra pt applies to ALL of your attacks and increases your initiative order.

 

Maybe 8 pt. CLS do need some more flexibility to make the tradeoff more even, such as prestidigitator's suggestions.