Batman! Collect them all for 350 Points!

[Enforcer84]

Re: Batman! Collect them all for 350 Points!

 

Part of the reason I prefer 4th edition over 5th. You couldn't do this, and shouldn't be able to! It's just a way to buy skills and equipment on the cheap.

 

BTW - What about power negators? If Batman goes near Marvel's Leech, he looses his skills?

 

There was multiform in 4th edition.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Batman! Collect them all for 350 Points!

 

True' date=' and I'm fairly certain that he's affected more than one non-mutant in the past as well. However, that would be more like pushing his powers with a creative GM more than anything else. As for Aquarian, he nullifies energies, not vehicles, shields, bases or anything else. Leech/Aquarian can't nullify Spidey's web-shooters, or Iron Man's armor ... so why would they be able to nullify Batman's arsenal? Even if the vehicles weren't bought in the manner that Cassandra has done, why would someone be able to nullify Batman's batarangs? In the end, it all comes down to a GM's call I believe that you, as a GM, wouldn't allow the it, nor would I probably But again, it doesn't invalidate the build so long as its allowed in the game

 

Honestly, if folks have a problem with the build, I would invite them to start their own build thread with their own versions

 

THis

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Batman! Collect them all for 350 Points!

 

So why wouldn't DCU's Amazo or Parasite be able to copy/absorb the multiform ability?

 

I was very specific in what I originally asked here for a reason.

The Batman from the first post did not have Martial Arts (essentially a skill) as a trade off for having the Multiform ability.

Every other version have identical skills with Martial Arts. They only differ on equipment.

 

So far the only answers to my original question have been sfx based. This sets a very bad precedent. It's just like building Superman with Enhanced Senses purchased within a Power Framework (like Multipower or VPP) which is expressly forbidden in the rules. If you allow it for Superman what is the argument for NOT allowing every other character built with a Power Framework from doing it as well? A GM sfx judgement call?!? Why even use points to build the characters at all then?

[Mathew]

Re: Batman! Collect them all for 350 Points!

 

There was multiform in 4th edition.

 

Yes, but the price was calculated differently. As I stated in another post "In 4th editon rules this kind of Multiform would cost 2275 points. 70 for the first form, and 35 each for the other 63." So you could write up this character, but instead of being 350 points, he would cost over 2000!

[Escafarc]

Re: Batman! Collect them all for 350 Points!

 

It's just like building Superman with Enhanced Senses purchased within a Power Framework (like Multipower or VPP) which is expressly forbidden in the rules.A GM sfx judgement call?!?

 

If the character concept or SFX fit(Superman's doesn't in my opinon), I've disreguarded the RAW with Enhanced Senses or even Skills in Frameworks. I do believe that GMs should look closely at those things to make sure it doesn't disrupt the game.

[Mathew]

Re: Batman! Collect them all for 350 Points!

 

Putting enhanced senses in a Power Framework are allowed with GM permission. I've allowed it when it makes sense - Particularly for VPPs. For instance a gadgeteer with a VPP can make a radio. A shapeshifter with a VPP can get night vision by turning his eyes cat-like. A Multipower or EC is harder to justify, since then it's just the character trying to get a power on the cheap by saying "He has superman powers, and everyone knows Kryptonians have x-ray vision! So it's a theme!" Even if you don't allow it in a Multipower or EC, they can still buy it, at full cost.

 

One time I did allow it was a Multipower with enhanced visions as the theme, for a character whose powers were all enhanced visions. He could swap (IR, UV, telescopic, x-ray) one at a time.

 

When I wrote a lot of 250 point project characters that had things that required GM permission, I wrote that the character sheet needed GM permission in the notes.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Batman! Collect them all for 350 Points!

 

....

 

One time I did allow it was a Multipower with enhanced visions as the theme, for a character whose powers were all enhanced visions. He could swap (IR, UV, telescopic, x-ray) one at a time.

 

...

 

Those senses are for the most part already 'one at a time' abilities. Allowing them in a Multipower is just awarding a point savings for no real drawback to the character. At some point it just becomes GM favoritism for one concept over another. That is never a good thing.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Batman! Collect them all for 350 Points!

 

Yes' date=' but the price was calculated differently. As I stated in another post "In 4th editon rules this kind of Multiform would cost 2275 points. 70 for the first form, and 35 each for the other 63." So you could write up this character, but instead of being 350 points, he would cost over 2000![/quote']

 

ah.

Didn't remember. I never used it until recently.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Batman! Collect them all for 350 Points!

 

I was very specific in what I originally asked here for a reason.

The Batman from the first post did not have Martial Arts (essentially a skill) as a trade off for having the Multiform ability.

Every other version have identical skills with Martial Arts. They only differ on equipment.

 

So far the only answers to my original question have been sfx based. This sets a very bad precedent. It's just like building Superman with Enhanced Senses purchased within a Power Framework (like Multipower or VPP) which is expressly forbidden in the rules. If you allow it for Superman what is the argument for NOT allowing every other character built with a Power Framework from doing it as well? A GM sfx judgement call?!? Why even use points to build the characters at all then?

 

So they don't end up 1400pt monstrosities...like my write ups?

[Cassandra]

Re: Batman! Collect them all for 350 Points!

 

I also put up a Batman with the Batmobile, Batplane, and Batboat as followers.

[Mathew]

Re: Batman! Collect them all for 350 Points!

 

Those senses are for the most part already 'one at a time' abilities. Allowing them in a Multipower is just awarding a point savings for no real drawback to the character. At some point it just becomes GM favoritism for one concept over another. That is never a good thing.

 

Not true at all, there are times when you need X-ray and telescopic (seeing into a room far away), or where you need x-ray and to dark (seeing into a dark room).

[Mathew]

Re: Batman! Collect them all for 350 Points!

 

I also put up a Batman with the Batmobile' date=' Batplane, and Batboat as followers.[/quote']

 

Followers? Not Vehicles?

 

Also, I'm not sure about the idea of a multiform slot with a vehicle. That is definitely double-dipping for points. Where does it go if he changes form?

[Sketchpad]

Re: Batman! Collect them all for 350 Points!

 

I was very specific in what I originally asked here for a reason.

The Batman from the first post did not have Martial Arts (essentially a skill) as a trade off for having the Multiform ability.

Every other version have identical skills with Martial Arts. They only differ on equipment.

 

So far the only answers to my original question have been sfx based. This sets a very bad precedent. It's just like building Superman with Enhanced Senses purchased within a Power Framework (like Multipower or VPP) which is expressly forbidden in the rules. If you allow it for Superman what is the argument for NOT allowing every other character built with a Power Framework from doing it as well? A GM sfx judgement call?!? Why even use points to build the characters at all then?

 

On the concept of senses in a framework, you're right to an extent. In your game it might be forbidden to include such a thing, which is fine. But in others, well, it is their game and they can allow it if they want.

 

Really, much of the hubbub here is all about personal games/house rules/opinions ... which will vary most of the time No one is really wrong in that. Let's just keep that in mind as we post, okay?

[Sketchpad]

Re: Batman! Collect them all for 350 Points!

 

Using a Vehicle MP is a neat idea ... though I would imagine there could be some kind of Extra Time Limitation put on it to switch slots. If you're running a game close to B:TAS, most of his vehicles have a sort of summon that allows them to get to him without a driver/pilot ... it'd almost work like a summon really I notice over in the DC Adventures game that they built Batman with this kind of concept as well ... having an array (read "multipower") with his various vehicles occupying separate slots. It's not a horrible idea really ...

[Cassandra]

Re: Batman! Collect them all for 350 Points!

 

Batman

 

Val Char Cost

20 STR 10

20 DEX 30

20 CON 20

12 BODY 4

18 INT 8

14 EGO 8

20 PRE 10

16 COM 3

8 PD 4

6 ED 2

4 SPD 10

8 REC 0

40 END 0

32 STUN 0

Total Characteristics Cost: 109 Points

 

Cost Skills

3 Acrobatics 13-

3 Breakfall 13-

3 Contortionist 13-

3 Criminology 13-

3 Deduction 13-

3 Disguise 13-

3 Fast Draw 13-

3 High Society 13-

3 Interrogation 13-

3 Lockpicking 13-

4 Martial Block

4 Martial Dodge

4 Martial Strike

3 Martial Throw

10 Money: Wealthy

5 Offensive Strike

3 Security Systems 13-

3 Shadowing 13-

3 Stealth 13-

3 Streetwise 13-

Total Skills Cost: 72 Points

 

Cost Powers

16 Armor +8 rPD +8 rED, OIF: Costume (-1/2)

27 Multipower (40 Points) OIF: Utility Belt (-1/2)

1 u) Darkness to Normal Sight AE 2"r, Personal Immunity (+1/4), [12c/Duration 1 Turn] (+1/4), OAF: Batsmoke (-1)

1 u) EB 6d6, [16c] (-0), OAF: Batarang (-1)

1 u) EB 3d6, NND [LS: Self Contained] (+1), [16c] (-0), OAF: Batgas (-1)

1 u) Entangle 3d6, DEF 3, [16c] (-0), OAF: Batbolas (-1)

1 u) Flight 10", Variable Advantages (+1/2), Megascale or 1/2 END Only, OIF[bulky]: Batplane (-1)

1 u) Gliding 10", OIF: Cape (-1/2)

1 u) Running +5", 8x NCM, No END (+1/2), Only on Appropriate Terrain (-1/2), OIF[bulky]: Batmobile (-1)

1 u) Swimming +10", 8x NCM, No END, Surface Movement Only (-1), OIF[bulky]: Batboat (-1)

1 u) Swinging 10", OAF: Batline (-1)

3 ES: Nightvision, OIF: Cowl (-1/2)

7 ES: RPT, OIF: Cowl (-1/2)

5 LS: Self Contained, OAF: Gas Mask (-1)

2 Running +1"

Total Cost: 69 Points

 

Total Cost: 250 Points

 

150+ Disadvantages

5 DNPC: Alfred Pennyworth (Useful Normal) 8-

10 Hunted: Joker (As Powerful) 8-

20 NCM

20 PsyL: Code Against Killing (Common/Total)

15 PsyL: Devoted to Justice (Common/Strong)

15 PsyL: Protective of Innocents (Common/Strong)

15 SocL: Secret Identity [bruce Wayne] (Frequently/Major)

Total Disadvantages Cost: 250 Points

 

Here is a version of Batman with his vehicles are part of his Utility belt.

[Mathew]

Re: Batman! Collect them all for 350 Points!

 

The problem with this idea for Batman is the 64th Multiform then has multiforms himself, with 63 more forms of Superman, and a 64th with YET MORE MULTIFORMS. So this becomes an infinite loop, covering every hero, and this character can become EVERY 350 point hero EVER!

[Escafarc]

Re: Batman! Collect them all for 350 Points!

 

The problem with this idea for Batman is the 64th Multiform then has multiforms himself' date=' with 63 more forms of Superman, and a 64th with YET MORE MULTIFORMS. So this becomes an infinite loop, covering every hero, and this character can become EVERY 350 point hero EVER![/quote']

 

Well he is the Bat-God:)

[assault]

Re: Batman! Collect them all for 350 Points!

 

Nested Multiforms? Interesting. Like having a Multipower inside a Multipower.

 

Whether or not the rules explicitly rule it out, it's unlikely many GMs would let a player get away with such a build.

 

Please note that I didn't write: "no sane GM would let..." That would have constituted a "No True Scotsman" fallacy.

 

Personally, Cassandra's build is beyond what I would allow in an actual game. As an example it's rather interesting, though. I've experimented in the past with Multiform based Superman builds, after having had some success with Multiform based versions of Ultra Boy.

 

Oh, yes, Ultra Boy. The only thing tricky about him is which is his base form. In his first appearance, he only uses his vision powers. Later on, he is shown using his invulnerability power as his default form. In theory, of course, he could use none of his powers at all.

 

Any of these could be his base form. In practice, his invulnerability power would be the least cheesy option. His first appearance can be explained as him being told only to use those particular powers. In practice, of course, it would be perfectly reasonable to build him with a rather weak "invulnerability" slot, and make his vision powers the slot that is actually useful. He wouldn't initially need to have any other slots at all!

 

They could be added later on. Really, only two more would be necessary: Superstrength and Superspeed.

 

In general, his powers are portrayed in such a way that it's not really necessary to break him down in more detail than this. They tend to clump together, and many of his secondary abilities can be considered as side effects of his main ones. (Superbreath is a good example - it can be treated as being related to Superstrength.)

 

With a bit of work, each form can thus be a reasonably well rounded character in itself. At this stage, however, shtick preservation can become an issue. That's pretty context dependent though, and not particularly relevant to this discussion.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Batman! Collect them all for 350 Points!

 

I think Multiform is one of those tools (like Transform and Extradimensional Movement) in the 'toolkit' that exists to mainly to allow for builds that just cant be done any other way (mimics & metamorphs like DC's Parasite & Beast Boy, Marvel's Rogue, etc..). Allowing it's use for characters that aren't actually mimicking another character just seems like a way to save points and nothing else.

 

I think the idea to use if for Ultra Boy's powers is interesting but ultimately overly complicated when you take spending XP into consideration. Any future XP spent on skills (arguably shared amongst all 'forms') has to be spent on the multiform power itself as well. So while it might be a good way to model a 'static snapshot' of a character it doesn't work to well for a playable character that grows in ability with time.

 

I'm also firmly in the camp of modeling a beginning* Batman's vehicles with Summon (you can then put the Summon in the Utility Belt and call it a radio control device).

*Later on when the character is more experienced and the vehicles might have a prominent role you can purchase them straight.

[Escafarc]

Re: Batman! Collect them all for 350 Points!

 

I use Multiform quite a bit. I no longer allow Only in Alternate ID(or what ever they call it now) I find that far more cheesy than Multiform. But that's just my view and I know I'm in the minority.

[assault]

Re: Batman! Collect them all for 350 Points!

 

I've been looking at building a starting Silver Age JLA based on the abilities the characters used in that title, and not their own stories.

 

In those very early stories, Batman was as much "a guy in a jet" as anything else. In that context, the Batplane would be a core part of the build.

 

Unfortunately, I've never really bothered to get my head around the vehicle rules, so I haven't really followed it up.

 

Another thing is that the limitations/complications the characters exhibit in these stories are only a subset of those that are in their solo stories. Even things like Secret Identity don't come up much - it seems to be assumed that they can sneak away.

 

I might have to have a closer look at the early issues.

[assault]

Re: Batman! Collect them all for 350 Points!

 

I think the idea to use if for Ultra Boy's powers is interesting but ultimately overly complicated when you take spending XP into consideration. Any future XP spent on skills (arguably shared amongst all 'forms') has to be spent on the multiform power itself as well. So while it might be a good way to model a 'static snapshot' of a character it doesn't work to well for a playable character that grows in ability with time.

 

He would be paying a tax on his xp, yes. On the other hand, he would start off as an exceedingly flexible and potentially powerful character. Whether or not the trade off would be worthwhile would depend on the length of the campaign.

[OddHat]

Re: Batman! Collect them all for 350 Points!

 

I just use tranq darts on players as soon as they come through the door. Then, after they pass out, I dope them up and condition them to believe they've just had the Best Game Ever. All those endless arguments over rules and builds are avoided. It's bliss.

[OddHat]

Re: Batman! Collect them all for 350 Points!

 

I kind of like MultiBatMan as an exercise, even though I'd be unlikely to allow him to be played in one of my campaigns. I've always said that characters need at least two write ups; one for their solo adventures and one for group books. Really they need one for every writer, and for every title they show up in. Even that may not be enough for the ones with absurdly wildly varying power levels.

[assault]

Re: Batman! Collect them all for 350 Points!

 

My ideal character writeup: one that "feels like" the character being modelled while being built on as few points as possible.

 

Having multiple writeups is one way of achieving this, by tailoring the writeup to the particular context. "Narrow" writeups, eg "Batman in the early issues of the JLA", are just particular examples of this.

 

MultiBatMan is really just a particular presentation of multiple character sheets, although one that could notionally be played as a single character. (But No Sensible Champions GM Would Allow It!)