How best to replace "Find Weakness"

[JmOz]

Re: How best to replace "Find Weakness"

 

Only skimmed thread so if someone else said this I appoligise

 

I saw mention of the APA AP rules, that is the start

 

Part 2 is determining the lowest you want the defence to go, let us say 1/8

 

Naked Advantages is part 3

You use each step of the APA version of AP with a coresponding increase in the number of RSR you need

 

now admitingly this is overly complex, but it would work...

[McCoy]

Re: How best to replace "Find Weakness"

 

Find Weakness: Drain PD 2d6+1 (standard effect: 7 points), Ranged (+1/2), Invisible Power Effects (Fully Invisible; +1) (57 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about two-thirds of its effectiveness (Only vs one character's HTH attack; -1 1/2), Limited Power Power loses about half of its effectiveness (Only up to half of current PD; -1), Requires A PER Roll, burns out if power fails (-1), Limited Power Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness (Subsequent rolls at cumulative -2; -1/4); 12 Real Points [6 END]

 

Best I can do without simply grandfathering it. Defense is Power Defense rather than Lack of Weakness.

[Escafarc]

Re: How best to replace "Find Weakness"

 

Find Weakness: Drain PD 2d6+1 (standard effect: 7 points), Ranged (+1/2), Invisible Power Effects (Fully Invisible; +1) (57 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about two-thirds of its effectiveness (Only vs one character's HTH attack; -1 1/2), Limited Power Power loses about half of its effectiveness (Only up to half of current PD; -1), Requires A PER Roll, burns out if power fails (-1), Limited Power Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness (Subsequent rolls at cumulative -2; -1/4); 12 Real Points

 

Best I can do without simply grandfathering it. Defense is Power Defense rather than Lack of Weakness.

 

Don't forget that PD is a Defensive Power so you have to divide the Drain by 2.

[McCoy]

Re: How best to replace "Find Weakness"

 

Don't forget that PD is a Defensive Power so you have to divide the Drain by 2.

Cite?

[Escafarc]

Re: How best to replace "Find Weakness"

 

Cite?

 

6E1 page141

[McCoy]

Re: How best to replace "Find Weakness"

 

6E1 page141

Didn't forget it, had overlooked it! Thanks!

[Escafarc]

Re: How best to replace "Find Weakness"

 

Didn't forget it' date=' had overlooked it! Thanks![/quote']

 

No Prob:) Over half the time when we're playing we forget all about it ourselves. It's usually afterwords someone remembers it we just go well we'll remember the next time( famous last words:))

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: How best to replace "Find Weakness"

 

Lots of good ways to do a Find Weakness as mentioned already. The thing I never understood was why FW should let you keep halving defenses for each successful roll, either logically or in game terms since it was so potentially unbalancing (not as bad as the old STN lotto, but still problematic). In my mind there shouldn't be a discussion on how to replicate the multiple halving mechanic in 6e because that was a good reason to get rid of it. Maybe its just me, but I don't miss it at all.

[Chimera 12]

Re: How best to replace "Find Weakness"

 

Lots of good ways to do a Find Weakness as mentioned already. The thing I never understood was why FW should let you keep halving defenses for each successful roll' date=' either logically or in game terms since it was so potentially unbalancing (not as bad as the old STN lotto, but still problematic). In my mind there shouldn't be a discussion on how to replicate the multiple halving mechanic in 6e because that was a good reason to get rid of it. Maybe its just me, but I don't miss it at all.[/quote']

 

In retrospect, what strains my suspension of disbelief was more the encounter-length nature of Find Weakness. What, you mean that once you've spotted a weakness even once you get to reliably exploit it with each and every eligible attack you make until the fight ends, but if you fail, then for the rest of the same fight you can never try to find one again against the same target...and, for some reason, you can't even point out this specific and apparently lasting weakness you've detected to any of your allies? That doesn't really even match my intuition of how such things should 'really' work...

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: How best to replace "Find Weakness"

 

In retrospect' date=' what strains [i']my[/i] suspension of disbelief was more the encounter-length nature of Find Weakness. What, you mean that once you've spotted a weakness even once you get to reliably exploit it with each and every eligible attack you make until the fight ends, but if you fail, then for the rest of the same fight you can never try to find one again against the same target...and, for some reason, you can't even point out this specific and apparently lasting weakness you've detected to any of your allies? That doesn't really even match my intuition of how such things should 'really' work...

 

This was one of those 6E changes I couldn't really get too worked up about; I won't really miss Find Weakness. Using 6E rules to 'toolkit' something similar in a way that's legal and makes more sense invariably seems to result in a power that's either less useful, or a good deal more costly, which says a lot about the old version of Find Weakness, IMHO. I don't even use the 'half defense' rule for the Armor Piercing advantage any more; the alternate rules in the APG raise a good point -- halving just penalizes those who bought higher defenses. Find Weakness abused this concept even more than Armor Piercing does.

[Fearghus]

Re: How best to replace "Find Weakness"

 

This was one of those 6E changes I couldn't really get too worked up about; I won't really miss Find Weakness. Using 6E rules to 'toolkit' something similar in a way that's legal and makes more sense invariably seems to result in a power that's either less useful' date=' or a good deal more costly, which says a lot about the old version of Find Weakness, IMHO. I don't even use the 'half defense' rule for the Armor Piercing advantage any more; the alternate rules in the APG raise a good point -- halving just penalizes those who bought higher defenses. Find Weakness abused this concept even more than Armor Piercing does.[/quote']

 

Good point. I am still running 5ER (though I did recently just pick up a copy of the 6E Vol 1&2) and I have pretty much outlawed find weakness in my game. I kind of like the idea of building it as an AP naked advantage with an activation roll. Lets face it. facing half defense kicks butt, and it was probably removed from the game because it was unbalanced.

[megaplayboy]

Re: How best to replace "Find Weakness"

 

Good point. I am still running 5ER (though I did recently just pick up a copy of the 6E Vol 1&2) and I have pretty much outlawed find weakness in my game. I kind of like the idea of building it as an AP naked advantage with an activation roll. Lets face it. facing half defense kicks butt' date=' and it was probably removed from the game because it was unbalanced.[/quote']

 

Well, considering you could buy an 11- chance to halve defenses against one attack for 10 points, and an 11- chance to halve defenses against all attacks for 30, yeah, it was probably unbalanced.

[McCoy]

Re: How best to replace "Find Weakness"

 

I like the idea of a normal strength MA staring at a bank vault door for several phases, then one-punching their way through it. Can probably still be done with a Tunneling, takes extra time" slot in a MP, so I don't have to give it up entirely.

 

Possible thread drift: is there a nickname or shorthand for a martial artist whose Sx is that their strikes do damage disproportionate to their force by being precisely placed? MA's who formerly had Find Weakness, AP strikes, NND "nerve strikes," Dim Mak, the Vulcan pinch, etc?

[BLHarrison]

Re: How best to replace "Find Weakness"

 

Good point. I am still running 5ER (though I did recently just pick up a copy of the 6E Vol 1&2) and I have pretty much outlawed find weakness in my game. I kind of like the idea of building it as an AP naked advantage with an activation roll. Lets face it. facing half defense kicks butt' date=' and it was probably removed from the game because it was unbalanced.[/quote']

 

The reason why I started this was because Find Weakness can also be an equilizer (and so I wanted something to replace it). With the damage that a agent does combined with their generally lower OCV, a Hero can take lots and lots of hits while mowing down overly massive numbers of the agents (and I mean even more than normally seen in the comics). BUT letting FW (or something simular) come into play and now the Hero has to think a bit and show the agents (as a group) more respect. And having played a few characters with FW I know that one can still blow the roll a strangly large number of times.

[megaplayboy]

Re: How best to replace "Find Weakness"

 

I like the idea of a normal strength MA staring at a bank vault door for several phases, then one-punching their way through it. Can probably still be done with a Tunneling, takes extra time" slot in a MP, so I don't have to give it up entirely.

 

Possible thread drift: is there a nickname or shorthand for a martial artist whose Sx is that their strikes do damage disproportionate to their force by being precisely placed? MA's who formerly had Find Weakness, AP strikes, NND "nerve strikes," Dim Mak, the Vulcan pinch, etc?

 

I'd go with "karnaks", myself.

I think you could probably go with a pushed and haymakered AP HKA to achieve a similar effect. In a 12 DC game, you could generate a 4.5 d6 AP KA, which generates 16 Body, getting 8 body past a 16 DEF, 9 BODY vault door, and probably either knocking it off its hinges or putting a big hole in it.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: How best to replace "Find Weakness"

 

Good point. I am still running 5ER (though I did recently just pick up a copy of the 6E Vol 1&2) and I have pretty much outlawed find weakness in my game. I kind of like the idea of building it as an AP naked advantage with an activation roll. Lets face it. facing half defense kicks butt' date=' and it was probably removed from the game because it was unbalanced.[/quote']

 

In 6E, the halving of defenses hasn't been removed altogether, just downplayed. Find Weakness is gone, and there's an alternate rule for Armor-Piercing in the Advanced Players Guide, but the standard version of A-P still halves defenses.

 

There's a very dark flip-side to the alternate A-P rules, however. If A-P gives a 'flat' penalty to all defenses, then victims... uh I mean characters with low defenses may find themselves with nothing at all to stop the attack. That 2d6 RKA heavy pistol loaded with A-P ammo is gonna take 6 points off the resistant PD of whoever it hits. A villain with an A-P 4d6 RKA will take off 12 points. So when someone gets a 'lucky hit' on your hero who relies on his high DCV in combat rather than tough defenses, his meager PD doesn't get cut in half -- it gets reduced to zero, or close to it. Ouch.

 

If 'realism' is your thing, that's what you'll get. But be prepared for the results. (I'm rather fond of realism; see my sig.)

[Bloodstone]

Re: How best to replace "Find Weakness"

 

In retrospect' date=' what strains [i']my[/i] suspension of disbelief was more the encounter-length nature of Find Weakness. What, you mean that once you've spotted a weakness even once you get to reliably exploit it with each and every eligible attack you make until the fight ends, but if you fail, then for the rest of the same fight you can never try to find one again against the same target...and, for some reason, you can't even point out this specific and apparently lasting weakness you've detected to any of your allies? That doesn't really even match my intuition of how such things should 'really' work...

 

I can relate to this. Though I always hated that Find Weakness would not tell you that Grond was vulnerable to Fire, but would tell you that if you hit him on Tripple Warmer 17 you could do massive damage.

 

In a way, the ability to tell your allies to always do X or attack with Y is, to my mind, the ability to Find Vulnerability. A power that is most appropriate with Telepathy or a Detect of some sort.

 

Find Weakness doesn't do that. In a way, it actually creates a Vulnerability where one did not previously exist

 

So Transform may be ideal if you want to share your Found Weakness with allies.

[dmjalund]

Re: How best to replace "Find Weakness"

 

sounds like you require a version of Analyze skill