Strength Minimum

[Wizard]

I have been pondering about the effect of Strength Minimum on various weapons. For instance the Butterfly Sword from HSMA has the same stats as a Broad Sword but has a STR Min of 9 compared to 12. Not a great difference but still a difference. This got me thinking that maybe there should be a gaming mechanic that gives the players a choice between the two weapons. I was thinking of something like:

 

 

A character wielding a weapon of a lower STR Min then the opponent they are attacking suffers a -1 OCV penalty. Use a STR Min of 0 for an unarmed character or for one with a lower Strength then the STR Min of the weapon he is wielding. If two hands are use on a one-handed weapon or one hand is used on a one-and-a-half-handed weapon use the normal rules to determine if the character can effectively wield the weapon but use the weapons original STR Min when using this rule.

 

For the following examples lets try a few combats between some combatants. We have Alfred (STR 12) using a Broad Sword (STR Min 12), Bruce (STR 10) using a Butterfly Sword (STR Min 9), Colin (STR 10) also using a Broad Sword and Darren (STR 13) and he is unarmed.

 

Alfred attacks Bruce, Alfred does not get a penalty as the weapon he is using has a higher STR Min then Bruce’s.

 

Bruce attacks Alfred and gets a -1 OCV penalty as his sword has a lower STR Min then Alfred’s.

 

Now it’s Colin’s turn to take a swipe at Bruce, Colin gets a -1 OCV penalty as even though his sword has a STR Min of 12, his Strength isn’t high enough to wield the sword effectively and thus his STR Min is reduced to 0 for the sake of this rule. If Colin used both hands on his sword, his STR Min would be 12 as his strength in now high enough to wield the sword effectively.

 

Now all of them make an attack on Darren. None of them have a penalty as Darren’s STR Min is 0 since he is unarmed. If Darren attacks either Alfred or Bruce he is at a -1 OCV penalty, while if he attacks Colin he has no penalty as Colin’s STR Min is 0 due to his lack of strength to wield his sword effectively.

The way I am looking at it is that a character wielding a weapon with a higher STR Min than his opponents has a combat advantage as long as his strength is high enough to wield the ‘superior’ weapon. I suppose you could say that the higher STR Min weapon has an intimidating effect on the wielder of the ‘inferior’ weapon who now needs to take extra care to get a hit in.

[Ternaugh]

Re: Strength Minimum

 

I don't believe that STR Min actually indicates "superior" or "inferior" weapons, especially since it's been effectively decoupled from any weapon damage calculations for 5th ed and up. The thought process in choosing STR Mins in 5ed+ seems to be that certain weapons don't require as much brute force to wield as others, even though they do the same amount of base damage.

 

It all centers on what you want to model in your game. If you're looking for hulking swordsmen with huge swords, then adding a rule like yours will encourage those genre conventions. If you're looking for a swashbuckling game, then it probably wouldn't be a good idea to penalize the more agile fighters.

 

JoeG

[Mickael]

Re: Strength Minimum

 

I think it's a good houserule if you want to reflect in game mechanics the impact of strength minimum.

However, I think that I won't reflect this in the game : some of the weapons in the lists are from different times, and even for 2 weapons of the same period, I imagine that they were not all designed equally. Perhaps some great blacksmith techniques allow them to design lighter lethal weapons, but a low-level blacksmith must design heavier weapons to do the same damage.

[Wizard]

Re: Strength Minimum

 

I don't believe that STR Min actually indicates "superior" or "inferior" weapons' date=' especially since it's been effectively decoupled from any weapon damage calculations for 5th ed and up.[/quote']

 

I meant 'superior' and 'inferior' within the context of the rule, not as an overall judgement of a weapon. As with the example a Butterfly Sword would be less effective against someone wielding a Broad Sword, but more effective against someone that is unarmed as it is more likely that it will add DCs due to the characters Strength.

 

It all centers on what you want to model in your game. If you're looking for hulking swordsmen with huge swords, then adding a rule like yours will encourage those genre conventions. If you're looking for a swashbuckling game, then it probably wouldn't be a good idea to penalize the more agile fighters.

 

My main reason is to give the players a game mechanic reason to choose a Broad Sword over a Butterfly Sword. Swashbuckling is not something I am aiming for so I don't mind if it suffers a bit.

[Wizard]

Re: Strength Minimum

 

I think it's a good houserule if you want to reflect in game mechanics the impact of strength minimum.

 

Then it's a good rule . Yeah, my main aim is to reflect the strength minimum so players have a reason to make a choice.

 

However, I think that I won't reflect this in the game : some of the weapons in the lists are from different times, and even for 2 weapons of the same period, I imagine that they were not all designed equally. Perhaps some great blacksmith techniques allow them to design lighter lethal weapons, but a low-level blacksmith must design heavier weapons to do the same damage.

 

I understand what you are saying but I suppose I am more interested in the game mechanic side of things and as I am not playing a historical game those things don't matter that much to me.

 

If I went to a blacksmith today, told him to make me a Butterfly and a Broad Sword that reflect the statistics in the list. I personally would expect the Butterfly Sword to be better in some situations than the Broad Sword and vice versa. I like to believe similiar items, even if they are not equal, tend to balance themselves out. It all depends on the circumstances.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Strength Minimum

 

1 penalty skill level to offset the OCV penalty later, and away we go.

 

The weapon with the higher STR min is heavier, clumsier or otherwise harder to wield in combat. Why should the character with the lighter, easier to wield weapon suffer a penalty to hit?

[Fearghus]

Re: Strength Minimum

 

Isn't there already a mechanic that makes using a weapon with a lower strength min more advantageous. I don't do fantasy games too often, and I don't have my books with me, but I would swear that I recall reading that any strength above the strength min of a weapon gets added to the damage of the attack. So the example you posted above. broad sword and butterfly sword. some characters would get an extra pip of damage out of the butterfly sword, but not the broad sword.

 

I might be mis-remembering, but I think that is how it works.

[Ternaugh]

Re: Strength Minimum

 

Yes, there's a damage adding rule on 6e2 100 which adds +1DC per 5 STR over the STR Min. Damage from this (and other sources) is usually capped ate 2x the weapon's damage (per the STR Minimum Limitation, see 6e2 199).

 

Back to the OP, I'd have to agree with Hugh, I don't see any reason to penalize someone with a lighter, easier to wield weapon, unless it's to reinforce a genre convention. Since I normally run games with a fair amount of fencing in them, this wouldn't work at all for me.

 

As to choosing a broadsword over a butterfly sword, I tend to run a more Renaissance-inspired game, which means that butterfly swords (China), katanas (Japan), and so forth aren't available. It does mean that rapiers, cutlasses and main gauches are statistically more likely to appear than a broadsword. Remember, too, that if you aren't happy with a given STR Min for a weapon in your game, you can just change it. Lower the STR Min of a broadsword, or increase the STR Min of a butterfly sword, if you like. I've changed various weapon stats when they didn't fit into my campaign, and I've outlawed a number of weapons that didn't fit the game's setting.

 

JoeG

[Ice9]

Re: Strength Minimum

 

While some weapons are the same except for the Strength Minimum, in most cases a higher Strength Minimum corresponds to higher base damage, and so is already a trade-off. Should a giant hammer really be more accurate than a longsword?

[dmjalund]

Re: Strength Minimum

 

how about weapon breaking rules based on STR Minimum

[Wizard]

Re: Strength Minimum

 

1 penalty skill level to offset the OCV penalty later, and away we go.

 

The weapon with the higher STR min is heavier, clumsier or otherwise harder to wield in combat. Why should the character with the lighter, easier to wield weapon suffer a penalty to hit?

 

The way I see it is that the person wielding the higher STR Min weapon is wielding it just as effectively as the person with the lower STR Min weapon as he has sufficient strength to do so. So both combatants are at an equal skill level. The difference is that the higher STR Min weapon has more chance to deflect or otherwise counter the lower STR Min weapon.

[Wizard]

Re: Strength Minimum

 

Isn't there already a mechanic that makes using a weapon with a lower strength min more advantageous. I don't do fantasy games too often, and I don't have my books with me, but I would swear that I recall reading that any strength above the strength min of a weapon gets added to the damage of the attack. So the example you posted above. broad sword and butterfly sword. some characters would get an extra pip of damage out of the butterfly sword, but not the broad sword.

 

I might be mis-remembering, but I think that is how it works.

 

Yeah there is. This is my whole problem. The Butterfly Sword has an advantage over the Broad Sword. If both are being wielded effectively I would expect the Broad Sword to have the advantage over the Butterfly Sword.

[Wizard]

Re: Strength Minimum

 

Back to the OP' date=' I'd have to agree with Hugh, I don't see any reason to penalize someone with a lighter, easier to wield weapon, unless it's to reinforce a genre convention. Since I normally run games with a fair amount of fencing in them, this wouldn't work at all for me.[/quote']

 

My thoughts are that if both combatants are both 'effectively' wielding there weapons, I would expect the lighter weapon to have a disadvantage. This is what I am trying to do with this rule. Basically I am assuming the light weapon has no advantage over the heavier weapon as the wielder of the heavier weapon has sufficient strength to maneuver his weapon just a effectively. The heavier weapon has the advantage as it can more easily brush aside the lighter weapon.

[Wizard]

Re: Strength Minimum

 

While some weapons are the same except for the Strength Minimum' date=' in most cases a higher Strength Minimum corresponds to higher base damage, and so is already a trade-off. Should a giant hammer really be more accurate than a longsword?[/quote']

 

If that was always true I would be happy. But it's not. Take the example of the Butterfly Sword and the Broad Sword. They both do the same damage, but as the Butterfly Sword has a lower STR Min it has the capacity to do more damage making it the superior weapon. This just seems wrong to me.

[Wizard]

Re: Strength Minimum

 

how about weapon breaking rules based on STR Minimum

 

This could be an option. Something I need to think about. Thanks for the idea.

[Ice9]

Re: Strength Minimum

 

Another option would be reduced effect vs armor on "same damage but lighter" weapons like the butterfly sword. Even -1 DC vs armored foes would be a noticeable difference.

[Utech]

Re: Strength Minimum

 

Another simple option would be to make the butterfly sword more expensive to buy and repair than the broadsword. Perhaps few blacksmiths know how to make one. It seems quite natural to me that a more effective (in this case lighter and/or better balanced) sword should be more difficult to obtain and keep up.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Strength Minimum

 

I'm getting a little disgusted with Str and the Str Min. Basically, it comes down to: "It's only 10 points. Why the heck would I ever build a character with less than 20 Str?" Even with a group of good players, there's so much of a system difference that it's hard to resist the temptation.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Strength Minimum

 

Butterfly Swords are 4 DC in HSMA? Didn't they used to be 3DC, the same damage as a short sword, which is essentially what they are?

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Strength Minimum

 

"Why the heck would I ever build a character with less than 20 Str?" Even with a group of good players' date=' there's so much of a system difference that it's hard to resist the temptation.[/quote']

 

Why indeed? If STR 20 makes sense for a character, fine. If not, then don't buy it.

[Chimera 12]

Re: Strength Minimum

 

I'm getting a little disgusted with Str and the Str Min. Basically' date=' it comes down to: "It's only 10 points. Why the heck would I ever build a character with less than 20 Str?" Even with a group of good players, there's so much of a system difference that it's hard to resist the temptation.[/quote']

 

Well, yes. Even with 6th Edition no longer having 'figured' characteristics as such, STR is still pretty undercosted for everything it actually ends up being good for. So there's no real reason not to buy it up as far as you can readily afford, which given its low cost is generally a fair bit even for characters who aren't dedicated 'brick' types.

 

In other news, sun discovered to set in the west.

[Escafarc]

Re: Strength Minimum

 

In other news' date=' sun discovered to set in the west. [/quote']

 

Except on the original Planet of the Apes:)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Strength Minimum

 

I'm getting a little disgusted with Str and the Str Min. Basically' date=' it comes down to: "It's only 10 points. Why the heck would I ever build a character with less than 20 Str?" Even with a group of good players, there's so much of a system difference that it's hard to resist the temptation.[/quote']

 

The problem is not the cost of STR. The problem is that HKA gets free DC's when combined with STR.

 

For any other power, we buy the DC's we use, but HKA gets a freebie if the character has high enough STR. It's fine to say that players should build to concept, but it is equaly fundmental that the rules should not reward some concepts and penalize others. Why should a player whose concept supports a 2d6 HKA and 30 STR cost the same as one whose concept favors a 3d6+1 HKA and 10 STR? There are advantages to that extra STR. The second player should instead buy a 4d6 RKA No Range or a 4d6 HKA, no STR adds. Then he pays 40 points instead of 50 and is unaffected by a STR drain. Less cost for the same benefits.

 

The answer, to me, is to de-link HKA and STR, just like we de link many other abilities that, in most cases, seem to go well together. You want a 4d6 HKA, 2d6 of which is Linked to your STR? So buy a 4d6 HKA, 2d6 of which is Linked to your STR. Maybe you want a 4d6 PD Drain, 266 of which is Linked to your STR. Build it the same way.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Strength Minimum

 

The problem is not the cost of STR. The problem is that HKA gets free DC's when combined with STR.

 

Perhaps. I guess I'm looking for more ways to make viable and comparably effective characters in low-level heroic (mostly fantasy) games, without getting too strange and exotic. Maybe I'll encourage more things like Deadly Blow, Weaponmaster, and Martial Arts (probably allowing partial buys of the former two so you don't have to go to the full +3 DC level).

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Strength Minimum

 

Perhaps. I guess I'm looking for more ways to make viable and comparably effective characters in low-level heroic (mostly fantasy) games' date=' without getting too strange and exotic. Maybe I'll encourage more things like Deadly Blow, Weaponmaster, and Martial Arts (probably allowing partial buys of the former two so you don't have to go to the full +3 DC level).[/quote']

 

In my games, thats how I handle Deadly Blow. Deadly Blow has 3 "levels". Each level corresponds to a +1 DC add to the specified attack. This is significant because Deadly Blow counts as base damage, so even +1 DC can be effective. Coupled with Martial Arts and Skill Levels, Characters who use Deadly Blow can be incredibly effective even with smaller weapons without being too powerful. Such a method is perfect for a Heroic fantasy campaign.