6e questions - still no move after attack, expensive movement, defense favored, etc.?

[slaughterj]

Played Hero since the mid/late 80s, just now looking into 6e, and had some questions:

1. Did I see correctly that an attack still ends the action, i.e., can move before but not after? If so, was it ever explained as part of the big system review why this was still the case? I changed this rule to allow movement afterward about 20 years ago and it never was a problem.

2. Movement powers for combat use are generally still bought on a linear scale, right? (Setting aside MegaScale for NCM.) In the big system review, was it discussed why this is the case? It seems like movement powers are unduly expensive, e.g., compared with the scaling movement in MnM. (And it seems like one should not need to spend nearly as much for a decent movement than they do for a decent attack, as the latter is doing a whole lot more).

3. Hero had in the past slightly favored defenses versus offenses by making equivalent defenses a bit cheaper, is that still built into the system or is it now evened out?

4. Has the adjustment to the characteristics finally dispatched the imbalances of DEX, CON, STR, and otherwise, or are there still some legitimate discussions of balance issues with the new characteristics setup? Though I liked the backward-compatible ways of past editions, I generally favor the concept of this change for purposes of balance and look forward to exploring it further, but was wondering if there are still previous issues or perhaps new issues due to the recosting and decoupling of figured stats.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: 6e questions - still no move after attack, expensive movement, defense favored, e

 

1. As for your first point, most of the games I've ever played have taking an action, especially if it's an attack, end your turn. That is not some weird anomaly only found in Hero, it's fairly standard.

2. I've never heard anyone complain that movement is too expensive. In fact, it's often considered too cheap in fantasy games. In 5E 30 points of movement would get you 15-30" of combat movement (depending on the type). That's 30-60 meters in a second non combat. For a SPD 5 character that means the can move 750-1500 meters a minute. That's 45-90 kilometers per hour. If 28-56 miles per hour is too slow for you, you can double the non-com distance for a mere 5 points and keep doubling it at 5 points per doubling to as fast as you want. This really seems like a non-issue.

3. I haven't finished reading 6E, but I'm pretty sure the philosophy of DEF being cheaper than Attack Powers is still the norm, though in reality, considering the vast number of ways you can attack someone in Hero it doesn't always hold true anyway. It's not cost efficient to be immune to everything.

4. Yes, with the exception of some people thinking that DEX is too expensive at 2 points or that STR is still too versatile at only 1 point, but the adjustment and lack of figured characteristics did a lot to "fix" the issue.

[slaughterj]

Re: 6e questions - still no move after attack, expensive movement, defense favored, e

 

Thanks for the responses.

 

1. As for your first point' date=' most of the games I've ever played have taking an action, especially if it's an attack, end your turn. That is not some weird anomaly only found in Hero, it's fairly standard.[/quote']

 

DnD 3e/4e didn't end an action by attacking (except on a charge), nor did the other d20 games to my knowledge, which has been a lot of the RPG scene for some time, and of course DnD is the big gorilla. Going back a long ways, D6 Star Wars didn't end actions on a turn. I'm sure you can cite to some games that do it, but none come to mind to me other than Hero, and in Hero, it never seemed necessary.

[slaughterj]

Re: 6e questions - still no move after attack, expensive movement, defense favored, e

 

2. I've never heard anyone complain that movement is too expensive. In fact, it's often considered too cheap in fantasy games. In 5E 30 points of movement would get you 15-30" of combat movement (depending on the type). That's 30-60 meters in a second non combat. For a SPD 5 character that means the can move 750-1500 meters a minute. That's 45-90 kilometers per hour. If 28-56 miles per hour is too slow for you, you can double the non-com distance for a mere 5 points and keep doubling it at 5 points per doubling to as fast as you want. This really seems like a non-issue.

 

Check out MnM, movement was handled much better there. In Hero in the past, one usually spent as much on your defense and other powers, since they would go into an EC together, but because the EC cut the cost in half, the high cost for movement was somewhat controlled, but without ECs (though there seems to be the same power source limitation), the unduly high cost for movement really stands out, as one should be able to buy a decent movement without spending the equivalent amount as they did for their defenses, etc. as the need for attacks and defenses are much more significant than is movement.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: 6e questions - still no move after attack, expensive movement, defense favored, e

 

Check out MnM' date=' movement was handled much better there. In Hero in the past, one usually spent as much on your defense and other powers, since they would go into an EC together, but because the EC cut the cost in half, the high cost for movement was somewhat controlled, but without ECs (though there seems to be the same power source limitation), the unduly high cost for movement really stands out, as one should be able to buy a decent movement without spending the equivalent amount as they did for their defenses, etc. as the need for attacks and defenses are much more significant than is movement.[/quote']

 

26 mph isn't a "decent [amount of] movement"?

[slaughterj]

Re: 6e questions - still no move after attack, expensive movement, defense favored, e

 

26 mph isn't a "decent [amount of] movement"?

 

That's one hell of a slow car. I can probably ride a 10-speed that fast, so that doesn't seem too superheroic.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: 6e questions - still no move after attack, expensive movement, defense favored, e

 

1. Hero System isn't a Superhero game, it's a Generic rule set for running any genre.

2. A car will be faster. It will also have a turn mode, which running would not. It will also be limited to certain types of terrain. It will also require fuel.

3. A 15" (30 meter) Combat Movement with a SPD 5 let's someone, who in a superheroic campaign could still be considered a "trained normal", outrun many Olympic racers and keep it up almost indefinately. That doesn't seem too superheroic?

4. Megascale. Increase non-combat movement. How many ways do you want to be able to move farther/faster?

5. If movement was even cheaper, and we adopted your "move after attacking" house rule, many characters could simply hit a mook then move so far away there would be minimal chance of retaliation due to range modifiers and "normal" NPCs lack of insane amounts of movement. Boy, that sounds superheroic.

6. Hero is a Toolbox, not a set game. You want exponential movement, then make it in your campaign. Personally though, unless every single player is Flash, Superman, et cetera, they shouldn't all be able to zip around everyone and everything else.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: 6e questions - still no move after attack, expensive movement, defense favored, e

 

That's one hell of a slow car. I can probably ride a 10-speed that fast' date=' so that doesn't seem too superheroic.[/quote']

Average speed for a road bike (non-professional racing bike) is 17-25 mph. So good job,you must have a nice bike and be in pretty good physical condition.

[slaughterj]

Re: 6e questions - still no move after attack, expensive movement, defense favored, e

 

1. Hero System isn't a Superhero game' date=' it's a Generic rule set for running any genre.[/quote']

 

I guess you missed my first post where I said I played (and ran) Hero since the mid/late 80s? I pretty much got that point, thanks.

 

5. If movement was even cheaper' date=' and we adopted your "move after attacking" house rule, many characters could simply hit a mook then move so far away there would be minimal chance of retaliation due to range modifiers and "normal" NPCs lack of insane amounts of movement. Boy, that sounds superheroic.[/quote']

 

Really? Really? I'm pretty sure if they wanted to attack in the first place or to attack again, they would need to move into range of being attacked, so this is really not a problem. I think maybe the original designers 30+ years ago might have designed the game with that worry back in the early days of RPGs, but it really isn't a problem as shown by extensive actual play since then. I've run plenty of Hero with move after attack over 20+ years, and the MnM game system is extensively played, allows move after attack, has been out for nearly 10 years, and doesn't seem to be a problem, so I really don't think Hero needs to cling to this legacy, unnecessary rule.

[slaughterj]

Re: 6e questions - still no move after attack, expensive movement, defense favored, e

 

Average speed for a road bike (non-professional racing bike) is 17-25 mph. So good job' date='you must have a nice bike and be in pretty good physical condition.[/quote']

 

Riding downhill of course

[azrad]

Re: 6e questions - still no move after attack, expensive movement, defense favored, e

 

If you want to attack then move just do a move by or a strafe.

[Ice9]

Re: 6e questions - still no move after attack, expensive movement, defense favored, e

 

That is a point though - given that move by and strafe do exist, and many high-speed characters can already take advantage of them, doesn't the "no move after attacking" rule just penalize people with non-standard attack or movement powers who can't use those manuevers?

 

It seems like the most you could get up to is a single "safe" attack anyway. After that, people can ready actions to smack you when you show up.

[Tasha]

Re: 6e questions - still no move after attack, expensive movement, defense favored, e

 

Yeah, I have been wondering myself if/when the "attack action ends Phase" sacred cow would be eliminated. It would clean up a bunch of stuff and make some combat much more fluid than it currently is.

[slaughterj]

Re: 6e questions - still no move after attack, expensive movement, defense favored, e

 

Yeah' date=' I have been wondering myself if/when the "attack action ends Phase" sacred cow would be eliminated. It would clean up a bunch of stuff and make some combat much more fluid than it currently is.[/quote']

 

Exactly, which is why I dropped it 20+ years ago with no ill effect.

[prestidigitator]

Re: 6e questions - still no move after attack, expensive movement, defense favored, e

 

I personally like the Phase ending with any attack. It keeps things like Block working smoothly. As pointed out above, if you REALLY want to be able to move after the attack, you can use a maneuver which allows it; a maneuver which has its own drawbacks (such as reduced CVs).

[megaplayboy]

Re: 6e questions - still no move after attack, expensive movement, defense favored, e

 

Yeah' date=' I have been wondering myself if/when the "attack action ends Phase" sacred cow would be eliminated. It would clean up a bunch of stuff and make some combat much more fluid than it currently is.[/quote']

 

Considering the adverse reaction to the introduction of the "flying dodge" maneuver, I'm guessing the answer is "not any time soon." Another quirky thing is the idea that moving 1 meter in any direction will make all haymakers automatically miss--even those which are mentally targeted and require only that the target be in LOS.

[Hierax]

Re: 6e questions - still no move after attack, expensive movement, defense favored, e

 

I believe that the Move After Attack is now an official optional rule for H6e -- maybe in the APG or as a Toolkit option in H6e2.

[slaughterj]

Re: 6e questions - still no move after attack, expensive movement, defense favored, e

 

I believe that the Move After Attack is now an official optional rule for H6e -- maybe in the APG or as a Toolkit option in H6e2.

 

Thanks! I'll check that out, sounds like some incremental progress on this.

[megaplayboy]

Re: 6e questions - still no move after attack, expensive movement, defense favored, e

 

I'm not really sure about the complaint about movement being too expensive. You can double your noncombat speed for 5 points. You can megascale it to hypersonic level speeds by simply doubling the base cost. Most combat maps are about 30 "hexes" (60 meters) to a side, meaning 30 points worth of movement will get you halfway across the map. Keep in mind that movement speed is technically factored into combat damage in a semi-linear fashion(doubling combat velocity will double your damage bonus for move-bys and move-throughs), although if one used the alternate velocity factor rules, I'd tend to agree that this would be less of an issue.

[Lucius]

Re: 6e questions - still no move after attack, expensive movement, defense favored, e

 

hmm...

 

Move By allows one to move after attacking.

 

Running doesn't have Turn Mode.

 

Technically, could I run forward, hit someone with a Move By, and turn around and run back in the opposite direction, back to where I came from, with the rest of my movement?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I know I can do it with a palindromedary...

[Ice9]

Re: 6e questions - still no move after attack, expensive movement, defense favored, e

 

I can see both sides of the movement cost one. Movement can in many ways be considered like Strength, as an element that has specific game effects but can also be part of a character's concept. With Strength, the damage is linear, but the lifting is exponential - so Captain Mighty is able to lift a battleship without spending thousands of points or overpowering all the other characters.

 

But where's the equivalent for speed? Sure, there's noncombat movement, but that has significant limits. Imagine if Captain Mighty could only lift a motorcycle normally, and something like a battleship required going to 0 DCV and spending several phases lifting, plus not doing anything else while holding it. That's pretty much the movement situation. If your "true speed" requires multiple levels of NCM to reach, then it will virtually never happen in combat. The advantage "Noncombat Acceleration" (IIRC the name, it's the +1 advantage that lets you go to full NCM immediately) helps with this. But by that point, having an impressively superhuman speed is a lot more expensive than superhuman strength or presence.

[azrad]

Re: 6e questions - still no move after attack, expensive movement, defense favored, e

 

hmm...

 

Move By allows one to move after attacking.

 

Running doesn't have Turn Mode.

 

Technically, could I run forward, hit someone with a Move By, and turn around and run back in the opposite direction, back to where I came from, with the rest of my movement?

 

Yes, just don't forget the penalty to your OCV/DCV.

[Lucius]

Re: 6e questions - still no move after attack, expensive movement, defense favored, e

 

Yes' date=' just don't forget the penalty to your OCV/DCV.[/quote']

 

Perhaps better to buy a Martial Manuever or extra Movement on a Trigger.

 

Although Penalty Skill Levels would help.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Martial Arts Element: Palindromedary Mounted Weapons

[azrad]

Re: 6e questions - still no move after attack, expensive movement, defense favored, e

 

As far as movement being too expensive: I just don't see it. For 12 points you can move twice as far/fast as a normal person.

[azrad]

Re: 6e questions - still no move after attack, expensive movement, defense favored, e

 

And as far as defenses being cheaper than attacks, this seems to be a pretty fundamental aspect of Hero System (that I happen to really like). The heart of Hero System in my opinion is that a 1d6 attack costs 5 points, and the defense required to take 0 damage from this attack 50% of the time costs about 3 points. Works great IMO.