TASER in 5ER

[McCoy]

My cop character again.

 

The TASER I have been able to handle (but not fire) in Real Life had two cartridges, each of which held the wires and a "power pack" (capacitor?) You pulled the trigger and the wires streaked out, delivering a charge to the target (if you hit). Once you hit the target, you could pull the trigger again, delivering additional "jolts" through the same wires.

 

Translating that into 5ER with a 60 AP cap I got:

TASER: Energy Blast 4 1/2d6 vs ED, STUN Only (+0), Armor Piercing (+1/2), Continuous (+1) (57 Active Points); OAF (-1), 2 clips of 6 Charges (-1/2), Beam (-1/4), Limited Range (-1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4)

 

A miss expends an entire clip, not a charge. A hit allows (but does not require) up to 5 additional "zaps" in successive phases without an additional "to hit" roll.

 

Is this build doing what I described? Comments/suggestions?

 

Thanking everyone in advance again!

[Hyper-Man]

Re: TASER in 5ER

 

I created the following a while back.

The Active Points could easily be reduced from 75 to 60 without changing the basic concept.

 

Tasers and HERO was discussed in another recent thread but it was not the main topic. I figured it deserved its own thread.

 

After much thought I present an update on how I would build such a weapon in HERO. I am going with Suppress as the core of the build because every demonstration I have ever seen shows victims recovering within seconds after the effect is ended (something very difficult to do via a traditional Energy Blast based attack).

 

27 Taser (Alternative Build): Suppress STUN 6d6 (standard effect: 18 points), 4 clips of 4 Continuing Charges lasting 1 Turn each (The 'Charges' represent battery use. The 'Clips' represent the actual Darts that are fired. ; +0), Sticky (+1/2), Continuous (+1) (75 Active Points); OAF (-1), Lockout (-1/2), Limited Range (-1/4) [4 cc]

Notes: Since Suppress is already a constant power by default the addition of the Continuous Advantage allows additional effect rolls to add to the first on each subsequent Phase after the first for the duration of the Continuing Charge (1 Turn, -18 Stun 1st phase, -36 Total Stun 2nd Phase, -54 Stun 3rd Phase, etc...). This should bring down nearly any target within 10 seconds unless they have some Power Defense. Additional future 'charges' should be allowed to maintain (or even continue adding to) the previous Turn's 'cumulative' total (new darts are not being fired, just more battery juice being expended).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: TASER in 5ER

 

And here's a slightly more recent thread about TASER (shotgun) Rounds.

[McCoy]

Re: TASER in 5ER

 

I created the following a while back.

The Active Points could easily be reduced from 75 to 60 without changing the basic concept.

So we are talking uncontrolled continuous here? And sticky? IIRC that means that anyone coming help the target, like pulling off the wires, would get zapped too?

 

Like the NND option, little too much of an "I win" button for the character concept.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: TASER in 5ER

 

So we are talking uncontrolled continuous here? And sticky? IIRC that means that anyone coming help the target, like pulling off the wires, would get zapped too?

 

...

 

Continuing Charges do function like Uncontrolled.

 

Any concerns regarding this being too effective could be addressed by giving Limited Power Defense to targets wearing insulated clothing. Just 5-10 points of Power Defense would have a significant impact vs this version.

[McCoy]

Re: TASER in 5ER

 

Continuing Charges do function like Uncontrolled.

 

Any concerns regarding this being too effective could be addressed by giving Limited Power Defense to targets wearing insulated clothing. Just 5-10 points of Power Defense would have a significant impact vs this version.

So let's address the sticky.

 

Officers Toody and Muldoon respond to a DV report, see a man with a knife. Muldoon commits to a disarm maneuver just as Toody fires his TASER. Muldoon and the perp hit the floor.

 

Think things are going to be a little tense in Car 54 for the rest of the week?

[Ghost Archer]

Re: TASER in 5ER

 

So let's address the sticky.

 

Officers Toody and Muldoon respond to a DV report, see a man with a knife. Muldoon commits to a disarm maneuver just as Toody fires his TASER. Muldoon and the perp hit the floor.

 

Think things are going to be a little tense in Car 54 for the rest of the week?

 

 

You just sent half the boards scrambling for Google to figure out who Toody and Muldoon were.

 

Rep for fun (well as soon as I can, can't see the rep window at work.)

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: TASER in 5ER

 

Do you want a realistic taser or a game-balanced taser? I believe in the HERO Equipment Guide a taser is built as an 8d6 NND attack with one or two recoverable charges (I don't have the book in front of me at the moment). While that might capture the real-world effect, you are looking at a 80 Active point attack, which is pretty hefty, especially for a heroic level game. That might fit well with the campaign tone, but you might want to drop the number of dice a bit to keep the heroes from being one-shotted by a little old lady with an attitude and lucky to-hit roll.

[McCoy]

Re: TASER in 5ER

 

Do you want a realistic taser or a game-balanced taser? I believe in the HERO Equipment Guide a taser is built as an 8d6 NND attack with one or two recoverable charges (I don't have the book in front of me at the moment). While that might capture the real-world effect' date=' you are looking at a 80 Active point attack, which is pretty hefty, especially for a heroic level game. That might fit well with the campaign tone, but you might want to drop the number of dice a bit to keep the heroes from being one-shotted by a little old lady with an attitude and lucky to-hit roll.[/quote']

Remember that the Police Issue TASER is designed with Joe Normal as the intended target; 2 ED, 10 CON, 20 STUN.

 

A (60 AP limit) 6d6 NND is going to do an average 21 STUN, Knocking Joe Out in one shot. Likewise the Suppress STUN build, especially with an uncontrolled continuous attack, Joe is going to wake up in the jail infirmary.

 

A 4 1/2 d6 EB is going to average 17.5 STUN, and with the AP all but 1 gets through. Joe is stunned, you get a free phase at 0 DCV to disarm him or start putting on the cuffs, yet he is not KO'ed, he can walk to the police cruiser under his own power instead of waiting for the ambulance. With the controlled continuous option Joe can be Knocked Out if that becomes desirable, but that is a choice rather than the default expectation.

 

Which looks more like news footage of someone being tased to you? Which is going to look better for the police on the evening news? Which seems more in keeping with an appropriate force policy?

 

Now I'm wondering if 4d6 may be more appropriate than 4 1/2.

[Rapier]

Re: TASER in 5ER

 

Unfortunately, that is part of the problem with modeling some real world effects.

 

A realistic taser is capable of taking down a fully grown man with a single zap (on average and for the most part). This means it's got to deliver about 20 - 25 STUN. I prefer the NND version because I think it's more accurate for the effect. You either have to bite the bullet and drop the rather large amount of points to get the one-hit-taser or use something that might take a couple of blasts before it knocks someone out.

 

I guess we could also break it down. What is the main effect of a taser? Does it knock someone unconscious? Does it lock up their muscles making them incapable of moving? A DEX Drain might be a better option.

[prestidigitator]

Re: TASER in 5ER

 

I've generally used Reduced Penetration on a Normal Energy attack for things like Tasers. They tend to be non-lethal, but can cause injury or death. So unless you're going ideal Superhero drop 'em without a worry type weapons, I feel it's more realistic without becoming overly complicated.

[McCoy]

Re: TASER in 5ER

 

Unfortunately, that is part of the problem with modeling some real world effects.

 

A realistic taser is capable of taking down a fully grown man with a single zap (on average and for the most part). This means it's got to deliver about 20 - 25 STUN.

No, a realistic TASER is capable of incapacitating a fully grown man with a single zap, leaving him with a reduced will and ability to resist but conscious, able to answer questions and walk with assistance. Locally being on the receiving end of a TASER is part of the police training before one is cleared to carry one. I have yet to have an officer tell me this was a pleasant experience, but I have also yet to have one say they were rendered unconscious by it. To me, this is stunned, which means on the average more than 10 but less than 20 STUN pips getting through on the first shot.

[Rapier]

Re: TASER in 5ER

 

No' date=' a realistic TASER is capable of incapacitating a fully grown man with a single zap, leaving him with a reduced will and ability to resist but conscious, able to answer questions and walk with assistance. Locally being on the receiving end of a TASER is part of the police training before one is cleared to carry one. I have yet to have an officer tell me this was a pleasant experience, but I have also yet to have one say they were rendered unconscious by it. To me, this is stunned, which means on the average more than 10 but less than 20 STUN pips getting through on the first shot.[/quote']

 

If a character is only barely Knocked Out (down to -10 STUN), he’s not completely unconscious — in fact, it’s more like he’s deeply Stunned. Depending upon the character and the nature of the attack, he may even be on his feet, wobbly but still standing, as he tries to shake off the effects of the attack. He’s dimly aware of what’s going on around him, but is too woozy and dazed to take any action or maintain any power. He can make a PER Roll to perceive something really important, but otherwise he cannot interact with the world. He can’t move, Dodge, take any Actions, or do anything but take Recoveries.

 

I believe the after-effects of being tased are more sever than modeled with the Stunned game mechanic. I believe a better model for that effect is a reduction to <0 STUN, which also reduces END to 0. I don't foresee anyone jumping up after being tased and immediately running laps.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: TASER in 5ER

 

First thought, If you are going for a realistic taser, you may also want to add on a side effect for multiple tasers zaps (such as death or BODY damage). Or some people just might have suceptibility/vunerability/physical disad to tasers.

 

Second thought, if you suppress someone's STUN to 0, and then have a continuing charge on it (that represents them not getting back up), they don't get back up until the supress ends right? So maybe a combo of supress + continuing charges.

 

NND also works, but does result in people getting back up again rather quickly (on the order of 12 seconds or less). If it was an NND, what would the defense be? Is it possible to have thick enough clothing or whatever that a taser doesn't hurt you?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: TASER in 5ER

 

...

 

I guess we could also break it down. What is the main effect of a taser? Does it knock someone unconscious? Does it lock up their muscles making them incapable of moving? A DEX Drain might be a better option.

 

From the other similar thread I previously linked to:

 

You definitely don’t want to be on the business end of one of these! Here is an excerpt from their site -Introducing the TASER XREP – the eXtended Range Electronic Projectile. XREP is a self-contained, wireless projectile that fires from a standard 12-gauge shotgun. It delivers the same Neuro-Muscular Incapacitation (NMI) bio-effect as our handheld TASER X26, but can be delivered to a distance of up to 100 feet, combining blunt impact with field proven TASER NMI.

The core technology that made the XREP possible is the XREP engine. A stunning engineering achievement, the XREP Engine provides the same bio-effect as our field proven X26, but from an electronics package that weighs only 2.4 grams and consumes less than one tenth of a cubic inch. In order to achieve a wireless projectile, the battery is fully integrated into the chassis and autonomously provides the power to drive the XREP engine for its full 20-second cycle.

 

 

...

 

based on http://www.taser.com/Pages/military_02.aspx

 

 

...

 

20 Tazer Round Loaded Shotgun: Suppress STUN 8d6 (standard effect: 24 points), [DEX & STUN] simultaneously (+1/2), 8 Continuing Charges lasting 1 Turn each (+0) (60 Active Points); OAF (Shotgun; -1), Can Be Missile Deflected (-1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4), Physical Manifestation (Shell sticking to victim; -1/4), Limited Range (Shell must hit target with enough velocity to stick to clothes or skin [There is no damage from impact]; -1/4)

[Notes: from 5er page 36, Negative Dexterity - At DEX 1 or less, a character is CV 0. A character with negative DEX loses control over his reactions, and must succeed with DEX Rolls to perform any Actions requiring physical movement (even just aiming at a target, or making Gestures). If he fails the DEX Roll, he cannot perform the Action that Phase. Characters with a DEX of -30 (or minus their initial DEX value, whichever is better for the character) or less may take no physical actions.] - END=[8 cc]

 

2-3 hits by this round will bring down most supers (unless they have some Power Defense).

 

I believe these were used in the "Heroes" TV show on a number of occasions.

[McCoy]

Re: TASER in 5ER

 

I've generally used Reduced Penetration on a Normal Energy attack for things like Tasers. They tend to be non-lethal' date=' but [i']can[/i] cause injury or death. So unless you're going ideal Superhero drop 'em without a worry type weapons, I feel it's more realistic without becoming overly complicated.

OK, let's try that, dropping the STUN only and the AP. Is this write up clearer?

 

TASER: Energy Blast 4 1/2d6, Continuous (+1) (Controlled continuous attack, user may choose to do more damage each phase after initial hit, 1 charge expended per phase if additional damage done or not.) (-0) (46 Active Points); Limited Power 'Continuous' may be ended by target or 3rd person with a half phase action (removing the wires) (-1), 2 clips of 8 Charges (-0), Limited Power ('Charges' represent battery /capacitor use, 'Clips' represent darts and wires) (-0), Limited Range (-1/4), OAF (-1), Beam (-1/4), Reduced Penetration (-1/4) Real Cost: 11

 

Average roll this does 2 x 8 STUN, 12 of which gets through, and 2 x 2 BODY, none of which gets through. Target will take BODY on well above average rolls.

[BlueCloud2k2]

Re: TASER in 5ER

 

20 Tazer Round Loaded Shotgun: Suppress STUN 8d6 (standard effect: 24 points)' date=' [DEX & STUN'] simultaneously (+1/2), 8 Continuing Charges lasting 1 Turn each (+0) (60 Active Points); OAF (Shotgun; -1), Can Be Missile Deflected (-1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4), Physical Manifestation (Shell sticking to victim; -1/4), Limited Range (Shell must hit target with enough velocity to stick to clothes or skin [There is no damage from impact]; -1/4)

[Notes: from 5er page 36, Negative Dexterity - At DEX 1 or less, a character is CV 0. A character with negative DEX loses control over his reactions, and must succeed with DEX Rolls to perform any Actions requiring physical movement (even just aiming at a target, or making Gestures). If he fails the DEX Roll, he cannot perform the Action that Phase. Characters with a DEX of -30 (or minus their initial DEX value, whichever is better for the character) or less may take no physical actions.] - END=[8 cc]

 

2-3 hits by this round will bring down most supers (unless they have some Power Defense).

 

Oh I am so stealing this... Have Rep Hyperman.

[Ragitsu]

Re: TASER in 5ER

 

Hopefully not xRep .

[McCoy]

Re: TASER in 5ER

 

[Notes: from 5er page 36' date= Negative Dexterity - At DEX 1 or less, a character is CV 0. A character with negative DEX loses control over his reactions, and must succeed with DEX Rolls to perform any Actions requiring physical movement (even just aiming at a target, or making Gestures). If he fails the DEX Roll, he cannot perform the Action that Phase. Characters with a DEX of -30 (or minus their initial DEX value, whichever is better for the character) or less may take no physical actions.]

Humm, now I'm wondering if a straight DEX drain may be more the effect that I'm looking for.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: TASER in 5ER

 

No' date=' a realistic TASER is capable of incapacitating a fully grown man with a single zap, leaving him with a reduced will and ability to resist but conscious, able to answer questions and walk with assistance. Locally being on the receiving end of a TASER is part of the police training before one is cleared to carry one. I have yet to have an officer tell me this was a pleasant experience, but I have also yet to have one say they were rendered unconscious by it. To me, this is stunned, which means on the average more than 10 but less than 20 STUN pips getting through on the first shot.[/quote']

 

I believe the after-effects of being tased are more sever than modeled with the Stunned game mechanic. I believe a better model for that effect is a reduction to <0 STUN' date=' which also reduces END to 0. I don't foresee anyone jumping up after being tased and immediately running laps.[/quote']

 

I like Rapier's concept, noting also that a character at 0 to -9 STUN is not out cold, and is sometimes described as "deeply stunned". A normal at 0 to -9 STUN would be incapacitated until he gets as many as three recoveries, so potentially in the 20 second or so range, after which he would have minbimal STUN and END.

[McCoy]

Re: TASER in 5ER

 

I like Rapier's concept' date=' noting also that a character at 0 to -9 STUN is not out cold, and is sometimes described as "deeply stunned". A normal at 0 to -9 STUN would be incapacitated until he gets as many as three recoveries, so potentially in the 20 second or so range, after which he would have minbimal STUN and END.[/quote']

Humm, 5ER, p 411, I had never noticed that there was a grey area between Knocked Out and out cold.

[McCoy]

Re: TASER in 5ER

 

Humm' date=' now I'm wondering if a straight DEX drain may be more the effect that I'm looking for.[/quote']

Nope. Did the math. With a 60 AP cap can't get Joe Normal down to less than or equal to 1 DEX on an average die roll. Would have to go the uncontrolled continuous route, then would still take more than one phase.