Aid's to Stun/End, do you allow it?

[Wolf]

I've got a player who's concept is a stalwart paladin, for our Supers game "that's going to happen" someday...

 

Anyway, this guy thinks to emulate a "proper fighter" he needs to secure his end so he won't have to take recoveries (as that's what weak folks do, I guess). He's also not very much a fan of having low Stun... or at least stun that can be depleted.

 

His main concern is that he wants to make sure all of his allies can benefit, so he's made an AID AOE (well two actually) one that aids body/Stun, and one that aids End, and put Continuous on them both, so that he has to do very little work to keep them up.

 

I guess what I'm asking is would you allow these builds (I'll see if I can get more specifics, I'm supposed to help him with the character this weekend, Sunday) or would you even allow the concept? It's caught under my skin, and I'm not quite sure why, it just seems like it's cheese.

 

I just guess there is already a mechanic to replenish Stun and End regularly, just because you feel threatened by that system, doesn't mean you have to build a way around it... or maybe my skin is just too thin. Why not just build your character with more stun/end... Now the aiding others, I'm just not sure about the auto replenish, even for the holy aura of a paladin.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Aid's to Stun/End, do you allow it?

 

Once you Aid an expendable Ability the maximum amount, you can't aid it again until it would have naturally Faded, though at the GM's discretion you can allow the character to gain back lost points using normal Recovery if the Fade Rate is long enough (see 6E1 p. 136). To me that means even such a Continuous Aid isn't likely to benefit the character by more than 5 AP per Turn (and remember that Adjustments to End, Body, and Stun are halved because these are considered "defensive abilities"), so it's basically an expensive form of extra Stun/End plus Recovery. In the case of using it on teammates, I at least think the Aid is more appropriate than UBO would be (which could get strange anyway with expendable abilities like Body, Stun, and End).

 

Beyond that, don't be afraid to say "no" or insist that some balancing Limitations be added in or something. Maybe remind the player that there are other ways to build this kind of tough character too: extra Body, Stun, End, Rec, higher defenses, Damage Reduction, Damage Negation, Regeneration, etc.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Aid's to Stun/End, do you allow it?

 

Oh, and remember that Aid will not replenish a character's normal Body, Stun, or End; it will only provide them with a little extra that gets expended first, but otherwise Fades. To truly replenish lost Body, Stun, and End, you need Healing not Aid (and Healing isn't quite as cumulative without lots of work/cost...).

[Ternaugh]

Re: Aid's to Stun/End, do you allow it?

 

The allies would need to stay bunched up within the AOE to receive the benefits of the constant Aid. Of course, anyone else who enters into the area of the Constant Aids would also be Aided--meaning that enemies will also receive the boost (see 6e2 127 "Area Affecting Constant Powers") for as long as they remain within the area (and then per the Fade rules). Additionally, unless it's bought with Mobile, the area's fixed to where it was originally targeted. Remember, too, that it takes an attack action to set up each in the first place.

 

JoeG

[randian]

Re: Aid's to Stun/End, do you allow it?

 

Of course' date=' anyone else who enters into the area of the Constant Aids would also be Aided--meaning that enemies will also receive the boost (see 6e2 127 "Area Affecting Constant Powers") for as long as they remain within the area (and then per the Fade rules).[/quote']

That can be fixed with Selective: "If a character enters the area after the power’s been established, and the attacker wants to affect him, he must make an Attack Roll to do so; this takes no time".

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Aid's to Stun/End, do you allow it?

 

That can be fixed with Selective: "If a character enters the area after the power’s been established' date=' and the attacker wants to affect him, he must make an Attack Roll to do so; this takes no time".[/quote']

 

One might argue that making it Selective should make it require an Attack Roll even for allies for reasons of "balance".

 

Also, as mentioned above, I think your player might not quite understand how Aid works. Does he know that the Aid will not just continually refill his END/Stun?

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Aid's to Stun/End, do you allow it?

 

One of my Paladin type PC's had a Healing to END / STUN power. I just stipulated that it required concentration w/ no other actions, so it wasn't just "let's negate END and STUN with my SuperPallyAura." WoW, HERO is not.

 

AID technically increases the max END, not the current, as stated above.

 

Healing heals a stat up to its normal max, but doesn't raise above the 'starting value', and should - if allowed - do what your paladin type wants done.

[Wolf]

Re: Aid's to Stun/End, do you allow it?

 

I guess I wasn't reading it all that well, and I'm less worried in general. However (I don't have my books with me at the moment), but what is meant by "max end, not the current" So if he aids end, then the target is still at the end value that they were before the aid, and the maximum end has been raised, they just need to "rest up" to get the max? or is it that they get a boost to the current numbers that works like "temporary HP" from D&D, and gives them a pool that is first drawn from?

 

And when they've used this pool, if that's it, then when can they benifit from more aid, after the fade time, or after they've depleted any of it? (I thought I read that Aid has a "max Value" that the power can give equal to the max roll on the die, unless an advantage is bought, but I may be thinking of another adjustment power, or 5e).

 

Thanks for the help no matter guys.

[randian]

Re: Aid's to Stun/End, do you allow it?

 

One might argue that making it Selective should make it require an Attack Roll even for allies for reasons of "balance".

Not a problem: "If the target’s willing to be affected by the Aid, including when the character uses his Aid on himself, the Attack Roll succeeds automatically"

[randian]

Re: Aid's to Stun/End, do you allow it?

 

AID technically increases the max END, not the current, as stated above.

Aid increases both Max and Current. Look at the example under "Fade Rate".

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Aid's to Stun/End, do you allow it?

 

Fair enough; I would still go with Healing over Aid for this type of effect, and I would make sure the person healing END could not heal the END and STUN of the group while also attacking or casting other spells, or I would ensure that the Healing is low powered if it is constant and the 'caster' can take other actions while the Heal is active.

[Wolf]

Re: Aid's to Stun/End, do you allow it?

 

*snip* WoW' date=' HERO is not.*Snip*[/quote']

 

One of the problems (two really since I don't play any MMO's) is that the "stated" character concept is what's called a Tank-Adin, apparently it's a class, or sub-class from the WoW.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Aid's to Stun/End, do you allow it?

 

"the WoW"

 

That is an awesome way to say it lol.

 

But yeah, I would build this (in 5E) as:

 

Aid 2d6, Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per Minute; +1/4), [two powers] simultaneously (+1/2), Usable Simultaneously (up to 8 people at once; +1) (55 Active Points); Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Restrainable (Only by means other than Grabs and Entangles; -1/4)

 

OR

 

Healing (STUN and/or END) 1d6+1, [two powers] simultaneously (+1/2), Continuous (+1), Usable Simultaneously (up to 8 people at once; +1) (45 Active Points); Concentration, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (1/2 DCV; -1/2), Incantations (Requires Incantations throughout; -1/2)

 

The Aid would give them a one-time boost or multiple applications up to the maximum of 12 Points (to both END and STUN)

 

The Heal would, every phase the tank-adin acts on, heal 1d6+1 to both END and STUN, but the Paladin would be chanting throughout, and 1/2 DCV.

 

Just how I would rule it.

[Ice9]

Re: Aid's to Stun/End, do you allow it?

 

There's nothing inherently wrong with Aiding STUN instead of Healing it - it's a different effect, most notably, one that wears off. I tend to use it for things like adrenalin boosts, where you're kicking ass for a while and then you crash. Because of the maximum-effect rule on Aid, people wouldn't be gaining the full amount every phase - more like 5-10 STUN a turn after the first turn.

[Patriot]

Re: Aid's to Stun/End, do you allow it?

 

I would say , it thats his one trick ...let him have it. Justifying the AOe is another story: Why? Was he a famous colonel/general /star fleet captain that can get people riled up with a short speech? Make him soliloquy to activate the power.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Aid's to Stun/End, do you allow it?

 

The Heal would' date=' every phase the tank-adin acts on, heal 1d6+1 to both END and STUN, but the Paladin would be chanting throughout, and 1/2 DCV.[/quote']

 

Not unless you tack on a HUGE Advantage to reduce the re-use duration on the Healing, or there's special intervention by the GM. Remember that Healing is not cumulative by default unless 24 hours have passed since the last use. No, that's not just for Body.

[Ternaugh]

Re: Aid's to Stun/End, do you allow it?

 

Not a problem: "If the target’s willing to be affected by the Aid' date=' including when the character uses his Aid on himself, the Attack Roll succeeds automatically"[/quote']

 

Not with the Selective modifier to AoE. It clearly requires that first the area of effect is targeted, and then each target that he'd want to be affected must be targeted at their full DCV, with relevant modifiers to OCV also applied (like range penalties, see 6e2 324 for details).

 

JoeG

[casualplayer]

Re: Aid's to Stun/End, do you allow it?

 

I think that if you enforce an AP limit in your game and make sure that all the bells and whistles are actually included rather than assumed it will be fine. The character will be a trickle charger rather than some constantly buffing problem to deal with.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Aid's to Stun/End, do you allow it?

 

Not unless you tack on a HUGE Advantage to reduce the re-use duration on the Healing' date=' or there's special intervention by the GM. Remember that Healing is not cumulative by default unless 24 hours have passed since the last use. No, that's not just for Body.[/quote']

 

I agree with this. The way the healing is built, it only works once, then it needs to beat the highest previous effect to get any effect through.

[Wolf]

Re: Aid's to Stun/End, do you allow it?

 

Thanks guys, I'm going to sit down and re-read this whole section (in the book, lol) and I think I feel a lot better about the whole situation (I should have had more faith in the HERO system than I appear to have had, BAD WOLF!). And again thanks to you guys, I am much more relaxed about what's going on in-character-creation.

[Fireg0lem]

Re: Aid's to Stun/End, do you allow it?

 

I'm of the opinion that if you plan to have an adjustment power active all the time, it should just be bought higher. Why not buy this as +Stun/End, Usable Simultaneously to get this effect?

[Ternaugh]

Re: Aid's to Stun/End, do you allow it?

 

I'm of the opinion that if you plan to have an adjustment power active all the time' date=' it should just be bought higher. Why not buy this as +Stun/End, Usable Simultaneously to get this effect?[/quote']

 

I'd have to agree with you. It's also substantially cheaper to buy an Aid to all three characteristics at once (with Expanded Effect) than to buy it as two separate powers. Either way, though, I'm seeing this as an expensive power that probably won't work the way he expects. Especially with the rule that Adjustment powers are half as effective against some characteristics, including BODY, STUN, and END. An additional complication is that it won't continue to "top up" these characteristics until the aided points fade. For example, let's assume that we've got a 2d6 Aid END, and we've maxed it out at 12 points (giving us +30 END). The Aided character spends 6 of these on the next Phase. We can't Aid again with the same power to gain back those 6 END points until after they would have faded. If a character burns through all 30 END provided in one Turn, he's done, until some points fade (usually Post-Segment 12, and usually only 5 CP). So, next turn, the most the he'll have added is 12 END.

 

I highly recommend careful reading of the Adjustment Powers section, starting on 6e1 135.

 

JoeG

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Aid's to Stun/End, do you allow it?

 

For example' date=' let's assume that we've got a 2d6 Aid END, and we've maxed it out at 12 points (giving us +12 END).[/quote']

 

Uh, that would be 12 Character Points of END. It works out to 30 END. (5 END costs 1 CP, but this is halved because END is considered, "defensive".)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Aid's to Stun/End, do you allow it?

 

Actually, that END Aid would be WAY more effective not used continuously and AoE. Most characters have enough END to get by, but an Aid would sure be nice after I recover from knockout and have END equal to my STUN total. If it's been running for a while and I'm max Aided when I'm KO'd, and kept there while I recover, I can't benefit from further Aid. At best, if I recover on PS 12, I could get a 5 CP (fade rate) x 5/2 = 12 END bump at the start of the new turn.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Aid's to Stun/End, do you allow it?

 

How much benefit will really be obtained?

 

The power requires AoE (say +3/4 for a 16m radius), Selective to affect allies only (say +1/4, and I still believe this means he must roll to hit each target) and Constant (+1/2). If he has 60 AP to work with, that's 24 base points, so 4d6 Aid to one stat. "Stun and BOD" will be a further +1/2 advantage, so 20 points, say 3d6+1.

 

Of course, that also costs 12 END per phase (60 AP each) to maintain, so he may also want Reduced END. Note that he needs a new attack action every time he fires this up, so he loses two attack actions, one for each Aid, to open the taps.

 

I expect it's no range and "sticks" to him, so Mobile isn't needed.

 

Personally, I'd rather this guy used an END aid on me after I recover from KO - since it's constant and AoE, I've likely already got the max, so I don't get a boost when I recover from KO (unless I recover at PS 12, having faded 5 points).

 

Once this guy is KO'd, PS 12 is much less fun for everyone else, as I lose 5 STUN and 12-13 END (5 CP x 1/2 x 5 END = 12.5) to fade every PS 12, an effective REC reduction. I lose that EVERY PS 12, so I need to wait for this guy's first phase to fully benefit from my REC. I'm also less likely to recover consciousness on PS 12 as a result. A further advantage to reduce the fade rate would reduce the available dice, of course.

 

It's a helpful power, to be sure, but it doesn't seem like a gamebreaker. That said, I agree if the intent is "all my allies will always be boosted", characteristics usable by others seems a more appropriate build. However, this approach will differ mechanically, so it is a viable option.