What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

[randian]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

I'd add "Lockout: Can't Use Personal REC in Conjunction" to your analysis for another 1/2, making it a firm -2 limitation. 5 REC/2 is a huge leap up from 3 REC/2.

 

SFX aside, I basically see Endurance Reserve as a replacement for buying Reduced Endurance on everything. That's why the old 10 END/1 Reserve was so great, it was cheap enough to replace Reduced Endurance. Maybe a little too cheap, but you get my point. Since Reserve END is more expensive than personal End, can you buy REC cheap enough that you'd be agnostic as to buying Endurance Reserve vs Reduced Endurance? I suspect that answer is "no" for most characters, you'd always want to buy Reduced Endurance in 6E.

[prestidigitator]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

How do you Powergammers come up with these things? : ) For the life of me' date=' I could have never considered such a build. (So is there an on-line course I can take?)[/quote']

 

I never actually did it, but I always resented the temptation. It's just a matter of looking at the costs. 1 point for 2 End, or 1 point for 10 End (and likewise for Rec)? Which would you choose? Actually, as a GM I had a house rule stating that the reduced End/Rec cost only applied until the End Reserve matched your normal End/Rec; after that they cost the full price of the End and/or Rec Characteristics.

 

Like I said, I think ideally End Reserve should, by default, act and cost just like a second set of End/Rec Characteristics, with Advantages that can make them act like End Reserves do now (e.g. Persistent on the End and Rec).

 

Another decent option IMO would be to use the "equipment doubling" type model, where End Reserve basically just costs 5 points for twice as many End/Rec reserves. That would be decent because: 1.) it wouldn't really give you more End because, by default, you have to choose at build time which End a Power uses and the second, third, fourth, etc. reserves wouldn't be any bigger than the original, 2.) adding the +1/4 Advantage that lets a Power choose from any End is as expensive as making it cost 1/2 End anyway and the cost scales with the size of the Power, 3.) Advantages like Persistent could be bought as a Naked Advantage for each of the reserves, must like Resistant is bought for natural PD/ED now.

[prestidigitator]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

SFX aside' date=' I basically see Endurance Reserve as a replacement for buying Reduced Endurance on everything. That's why the old 10 END/1 Reserve was so great, it was cheap enough to replace Reduced Endurance. Maybe a little too cheap, but you get my point.[/quote']

Way too cheap. The only disadvantage to Endurance Reserve is that you can't take extra Recoveries; the recovery rate is always the same. Weigh that against the advantages of the Endurance Reserve also being Persistent in every way, and it doesn't make much sense that the End Reserve should cost 1/2 (Rec) to 1/5 (End) the price of normal End/Rec. It just doesn't compute.

 

That Reduced End alternative not only doesn't cost you anything, but it saves you points, considering the fact that your other options for the equivalent effect would be to buy up normal (expensive) End/Rec or put an Advantage on a potentially high-point Power. The ridiculous extreme is the thing I mentioned earlier, where you sell back your normal End and buy an Endurance Reserve to power everything from. In that case you either get a TON of End/Rec for the same price, or you get the same End/Rec for radically reduced price. And with virtually no down side....

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

I'd add "Lockout: Can't Use Personal REC in Conjunction" to your analysis for another 1/2' date=' making it a firm -2 limitation. 5 REC/2 is a huge leap up from 3 REC/2.[/quote']

 

I'm inclined to agree 3/2 is significantly overpriced.

 

SFX aside' date=' I basically see Endurance Reserve as a replacement for buying Reduced Endurance on everything. That's why the old 10 END/1 Reserve was so great, it was cheap enough to replace Reduced Endurance. Maybe a little too cheap, but you get my point. Since Reserve END is more expensive than personal End, can you buy REC cheap enough that you'd be agnostic as to buying Endurance Reserve vs Reduced Endurance? I suspect that answer is "no" for most characters, you'd always want to buy Reduced Endurance in 6E.[/quote']

 

The problem, as Prestidigitator points out, is the comparative costing. In 5e, my 25 CON character could sell back his 50 END for 25 points. That 25 points would buy a 150 point END battery with a 10 Recovery, which would fuel most characters for way longer than their base END + REC. To me, that was a clear sign the comparative pricing was wrong. Now,I think it's more in line, except that the cost of REC is excessive, so it's swung a bit too far the other way.

[SteveZilla]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

Anyone else ever make the Unstoppable Robot' date=' where you sell back REC and then purchase a Persistent "Healing" Aid to BODY/END/STUN?[/quote']

 

Aid has a cap that it can't boost past. Having those boosted points "used up" doesn't get around that cap.

 

Charges of normal END?

Incredibly munchkiny*. But each charge would provide the full END that was purchased this was with each charge. Since they aren't Continuing Charges or a Fuel Charge, you'll have to use one each phase, or burn STUN in its place.

 

*I seem to recall DOJ having a convention game where you could build *anything* that was book legal. The game was a free-for-all among all the characters. IIRC, one of the entrants took Charges on nearly everything.

 

Absorption to a END reserve?

 

Same problem as the Aid that casualplayer suggested. Absorption has a cap that it can't absorb past. Having those absorbed points "used up" doesn't get around that cap.

 

Some form of Aid...hmm' date=' possibilities to mimic a self generating power source or stored reserves that way.[/quote']

 

Aid has a cap that it can't boost past. Having those boosted points "used up" doesn't get around that cap.

 

Whats wrong with Absorb> REC?...

 

Now this works. By "filtering" the absorbed points though REC, and then a PF-12 or Taking A Recovery, you get to keep (up to your STUN/END max naturally) those points.

 

But charges are a limitation until you get to a certain point - END Reserves are a cost right from the very first point...

 

Dont have an answer, just a frustration. :-)

 

But once you're used up your charges, that power is Done For The Day. An END Reserve can keep on going, "limited" only by the total END and amount of REC in the battery -- all day, all night.

[SteveZilla]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

But charges are a limitation until you get to a certain point - END Reserves are a cost right from the very first point...

 

Dont have an answer, just a frustration. :-)

 

But once you're used up your charges, that power is Done For The Day. An END Reserve can keep on going, "limited" only by the total END and amount of REC in the battery -- all day, all night.

 

Thing is' date=' a player can simply apply some advantages and limitations to buying normal end and recovery, and get the advantage of using their base end and recovery, and perhaps do it cheaper. So, given you can duplicates END reserves effects, and do it better for the same cost, or even less..why use it?[/quote']

 

Not valid if the SFX are different, like with a typical Battlesuit -- the Suit's END & REC are not the Character's and visa-versa. If "built together" like you suggest, a Drain that hits the Suit (i.e., is designed for, SFX-wise) will also suck up the character's Characteristic. Something that drains (small d) a battery (small of its electricity wouldn't normally affect the person wearing the battery.

[incrdbil]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

In reference to the discussion of reduced endurance advantage:

 

Their is an offensive advantage of an END reserve or just high endurance over buying reduced endurance powers in campaigns with firm active point limits,as you dont have to use up your upper active point limit on the reduced endurance advantage.

 

Looking at a 75 active limit--you can have a 15 DC 7 END attack, or a 12d6 3 END attack.

[incrdbil]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

But once you're used up your charges' date=' that power is [i']Done For The Day[/i]. An END Reserve can keep on going, "limited" only by the total END and amount of REC in the battery -- all day, all night.

 

Hmm, recoverable charges of endurance?

[SteveZilla]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

That is just wrong!

 

Repped.

[SteveZilla]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

In reference to the discussion of reduced endurance advantage:

 

Their is an offensive advantage of an END reserve or just high endurance over buying reduced endurance powers in campaigns with firm active point limits,as you dont have to use up your upper active point limit on the reduced endurance advantage.

 

Looking at a 75 active limit--you can have a 15 DC 7 END attack, or a 12d6 3 END attack.

 

That's a good point. In many of my builds, I kept the "brute force" attacks without Reduced Endurance, but used it on defenses and movement powers. How often do you use the full AP limit to achieve desired movement or defensive values? I don't, because I tend to use heightened PD/ED or a bit of Armor in addition to Force Field.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

Aid has a cap that it can't boost past. Having those boosted points "used up" doesn't get around that cap.

 

Pre-5e, the cap only applied to added, not restored, points. Builds like the one suggested were a reason the rule changed.

 

Currently, the character could base a similar effect on Healing, Reduced Re-Use (1 turn) to replace REC of the battery, although I suspect it would not work out cheaper. Anyone want to stat it out?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

In reference to the discussion of reduced endurance advantage:

 

Their is an offensive advantage of an END reserve or just high endurance over buying reduced endurance powers in campaigns with firm active point limits,as you dont have to use up your upper active point limit on the reduced endurance advantage.

 

Looking at a 75 active limit--you can have a 15 DC 7 END attack, or a 12d6 3 END attack.

 

This is why AP limits tend to be less effective than many people think.

[SteveZilla]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

This is why AP limits tend to be less effective than many people think.

 

And one of the reasons why I tend to prefer DC/CV limits over hard AP limits.

 

Pre-5e' date=' the cap only applied to added, not restored, points. Builds like the one suggested were a reason the rule changed.[/quote']

 

I belive I've heard a small number of people state they still use 4th edition, which I personally find pretty amazing. I would be completely baffled if someone were still using something even more ancient.

[casualplayer]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

It's pretty easy to see from the Adjustment Power changes made in 5th that Steve Long was rudely molested by them in his gaming past and took steps to disallow things that he found abusive. I've not had a similar experience, and I use Adjustment Powers a lot. I've mentioned my Deoptimizer Bomb, that back in the Figured Characteristic days carved 1 Active Point off all primary stats making those Goodman School graduates whimper and gnash their teeth. Buy all your Powers drawing from an electrical based END Reserve and you are 10x as vulnerable to EMPs and magnetic fields can play havoc with your REC. What goes up can come down, and I never allowed Power Defense with a darn good in-character reason.

I consider it Adjustment Power crazytalk to allow characters to shift Multipower slots and retain Aided points. Now that's abusive!

But I should have been more clear. I did mention that the proposed REC replacement perpetual Aid would be constructed like Healing but I guess it also hinges on retaining some 4th Ed. concepts for Adjustment Powers.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

It's pretty easy to see from the Adjustment Power changes made in 5th that Steve Long was rudely molested by them in his gaming past and took steps to disallow things that he found abusive. I've not had a similar experience' date=' and I use Adjustment Powers a lot. I've mentioned my Deoptimizer Bomb, that back in the Figured Characteristic days carved 1 Active Point off all primary stats making those Goodman School graduates whimper and gnash their teeth. Buy all your Powers drawing from an electrical based END Reserve and you are 10x as vulnerable to EMPs and magnetic fields can play havoc with your REC. What goes up can come down, and I never allowed Power Defense with a darn good in-character reason.[/quote']

I assume you mean "without" a good reason, but just wanted to double check.

 

 

I consider it Adjustment Power crazytalk to allow characters to shift Multipower slots and retain Aided points. Now that's abusive!

So in other words you didn't have trouble with them because you already had house rules that handled some of the potential problems.

[SteveZilla]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

Can someone explain to my why having the aided points on a Multipower slot not fade, and be available again when the character switches back to the Aided Slot (ignoring normal fade for the sake of argument) would be abusive? I can see a problem in the case of flexible slots, but not really with fixed slots.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

Can someone explain to my why having the aided points on a Multipower slot not fade' date=' and be available again when the character switches back to the Aided Slot (ignoring normal fade for the sake of argument) would be abusive? I can see a problem in the case of flexible slots, but not really with fixed slots.[/quote']

 

I don't think its an issue unless the Aid is another slot in the same multipower. I think 6e expressly forbids the aid from affecting another slot, don't remember if 5e did or not.

[SteveZilla]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

The disallowing Aiding the same Multipower (either a different slot than the Aid, or the whole Multipower at once [with appropriate Aid Advantages]) is a separate rule from "Aided points on a slot fade instantly if the slot is 'switched off'". I am curious as to why the second rule came about.

[The Main Man]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

First, Personal REC and END are affected by Characteristic Maxima but Endurance Reserve is not.

 

Second, Endurance Reserve is adjusted as if it were regular END and REC.

[algesan]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

And one of the reasons why I tend to prefer DC/CV limits over hard AP limits.

 

I use DC/CV for attack powers, as well as some defensive limits (like no Mental/Power DEF/etc over 10 points spent or more than 15 rDEF), but AP limits for "all others".

 

I belive I've heard a small number of people state they still use 4th edition, which I personally find pretty amazing. I would be completely baffled if someone were still using something even more ancient.

 

Why not? We rotate GMs and one of us runs 4th. The main reason I swapped over to 5th was because I couldn't find any legacy copies of HeroMaker (my disc became unreadable in the decade plus in storage) and it was a huge pain to try to redo 4th using Hero Designer. 5th has a lot of nifty tricks popped in as prebuilt "talents" and some nice rationalization and refinement, but 4th was the first version that really pulled everything together. Even if it did have some legacy issues that 5th fixed, you could always live with Ambidexterity and Combat Sense being 3 points. Everyone played by the same rules.

[Grailknight]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

In response to Stevezilla:

 

Because the combination of Aid and VPP was one of the more abusive things that you could do in the game. Build an aid any Char (1 at a time, 5pts per hr fade) . A character with this could increase all of their stats by 24 active pts in a 60 pt active campaign in less than 2 minutes and keep them that way PERMANENTLY by investing 2 min or so each morning during breakfast. You could then switch your VPP and use as normal. When we switch to 6th that house rule will be one of the first explained to my players.

[SteveZilla]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

I don't think that is what the rule (as far 5ER is concerned -- haven't read my 6E yet) means. Iirc, in 5ER, if an Aid added points to some slot in a Multipower, (like Energy Blast), and the character that has that MP switched to a different slot (say Flight), and thus "turned off" the Energy Blast, the Aided points faded immediately.

 

So it wasn't that the Aid becomes sorta like a Succor when in a MP (how else to do Stat-Enhancing Magic Spells then?), but that the slot that received the points from the Aid looses them immediately upon being "turned off".

[Grailknight]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

Ok sorry, parallel trains of thought going.

 

You were refering to the aided power. I wasn't aware of a rule that says that switching the aided power causes the aid to go away. I could rule this either way: Aid stays as a floating power until switched back or Aid leaves because it is an adder without anything to anchor it. not much potential abuse there unless ...

We go to the situation I was referencing. The AID is in a VPP/Multipower and effects are allowed to linger after the power is switched to something other than Aid which is something that is legal in 6th.

[casualplayer]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

I don't think that is what the rule (as far 5ER is concerned -- haven't read my 6E yet) means. Iirc, in 5ER, if an Aid added points to some slot in a Multipower, (like Energy Blast), and the character that has that MP switched to a different slot (say Flight), and thus "turned off" the Energy Blast, the Aided points faded immediately.

 

So it wasn't that the Aid becomes sorta like a Succor when in a MP (how else to do Stat-Enhancing Magic Spells then?), but that the slot that received the points from the Aid looses them immediately upon being "turned off".

 

Actually that is how they made Aid work in 5th (and 6th.) The Aided points persist even if the slot or pool is changed to another ability. And it's ridiculously abusable, which is why I use 4th Ed. rules.

[SteveZilla]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

Actually that is how they made Aid work in 5th (and 6th.) The Aided points persist even if the slot or pool is changed to another ability. And it's ridiculously abusable' date=' which is why I use 4th Ed. rules.[/quote']

 

True, but there is a *lot* in the system that is abusable. With 4th Ed. rules, how in the world do you do a spell or drug or whatever that enhances a Characteristic and mechanically would be in a MP/VPP?

 

Mr. Wizard: "Sorry, Mr. Fighter, but I'm casting Arrow of Acid now. You're going to have to do without that +10 Strength from the Minotaur's Might spell I cast last round."

Mr. Fighter: "What? I haven't even had an attack yet to use it even once!"

Mr. Wizard: "Don't blame me, I didn't make the System."