what is appropriate for "spell" or "weapon-based" powers

[yukonhorror]

I am trying to build the final fantasy game into the HERO system. I took a first stab at a power called Mighty Strike. In the original system, it does double dam (with a weapon), has a charge time, but has half the accuracy.

 

Some parts are easy. The charge time would be extra time (delay phase -1/4), and the half accuracy would be inaccurate (-1/4).

 

The other parts are tricky (to me).

 

First the double damage. To me there are three ways to approach this:

 

As a characteristic power (STR) +10 (10 Active points) with a non-persistent (-1/4) and instant (-1/2) limitation. This would give the atk a one time STR boost for a dam boost.

 

As an aid +3d6 STR (18 Active points) with aid self only (-1) one use at a time (-1). This has a fade, but can't be used consecutively.

 

OR

 

As a +1d6 HKA (15 Active points). Just boosts the damage the weapon does for one atk.

 

Also, because it is a weapon atk, do I use OAF (-1) or "with weapons only" (-1/2)?? It is not an inherent part of the weapon, it is inherent to the character class.

 

The last one goes towards spells too. For my mages, I want them to only be able to use spells through an implement of sorts (wand, rod, whatever is appropriate for the class). But I don't want them to have a "wand of X" X being the power used. I.e. I want the mage to be able to cast Blizzard with any wand, not just a wand of blizzard. Again, it is not an inherent part of the wand, it is inherent to the character class. So is OAF still appropriate?

 

If it is appropriate, why is it appropriate for a spell, but not a specific weapon atk? I saw "swordmaster skill" on pg 242 of 6e1 which has "only with swords (-1/2)" not OAF. I am new to this system, and trying to make things "fair".

 

Basically, for this power (and many like it), I want the fighter to be able to pick up a weapon he is proficient with, gather strength, and make a "mighty strike." And for spells, I want a mage to be able to pick up his rod, and cast the spell.

 

I'd appreciate a quick reply. A lot of powers depend upon these answers.

 

Also, I am new to this forum, and I am not familiar with the BEST place to post a question like this.

[dmjalund]

Re: what is appropriate for "spell" or "weapon-based" powers

 

I haven't decided about the others but -1/2 OIF weapon of opportunity (or maybe -3/4 if it only affects weapons of a specific type)

[yukonhorror]

Re: what is appropriate for "spell" or "weapon-based" powers

 

I'd consider weapon of opportunity IF the player had MANY weapons at his disposal. However, his accessibility to weapons not currently "equipped" will be be difficult to access. Essentially, as a GM, I PROBABLY would require the player to retrieve his weapon back before that power becomes accessible again.

 

With that in mind, would you still stick with your assessment?

 

Thanks for your help. I truly am thankful, even if I come off argumentative. Just want to be prepared if a player argues the cost for a power.

[AlHazred]

Re: what is appropriate for "spell" or "weapon-based" powers

 

If you want to "double the damage" then that's what we do. We do exactly what we want here in Heroland.

 

Not sure if I understand the request properly, but there's a Proportional Advantage/Limitation from the Advanced Players Guide, page 139-140. It's built for this kind of thing. You figure out how powerful you want the power to get, and slide the advantage or limitation value over depending on how often the condition that triggers it is going to happen. Alternatively, you can also do this as a Partially Limited Power (which is in 6E1, I believe) which is what Proportional is supposed to simplify.

 

If we want our sword (let's say it does 2d6 HKA, Reduced END (45 AP); OAF, STR Min 10, Real Weapon, for a total RC of 16) to do double damage, then that's an extra 45 AP, with an additional -1/2 limitation from the Extra Time (Delayed Phase) and Inaccurate Limitations. Total real cost 28. So, if you wanted to make that a Talent, you subtract 16 from 28 to get a Talent cost of 12.

 

That's just one way to do it, of course, and not even necessarily the most elegant solution.

[Nolgroth]

Re: what is appropriate for "spell" or "weapon-based" powers

 

Ultimately, as the GM, you have final say so on the Limitation value. Also keep in mind that from all of the suggestions you get, only the one that best fits your game and play style is the "right" one. That all being said.....

 

For weapon based powers, the OIF: Weapon of Opportunity basically represents that any ol' weapon sitting around is a viable candidate. So if the power requires a sword, how often are they just sitting around to be picked up by the passing character? That should be part of the decision making process. I would personally go with OAF, but that is just me.

 

The same goes for magic. If the magic comes from the wizard and all he needs is a wand or staff to focus the magic, then OAF is appropriate. It just means that if deprived of that element, he cannot cast the spell. Personally I would build a base spell (say Fireblast at xd6 Blast (or RKA)) and then have the Focus improve the ability. Sort of like the Weaponmaster thing. That digresses from the purpose of this conversation so there you are.

 

To the question of the double damage attack, I would go with +xd6(k/n), Only up to twice the base DC of the attack (-1/2). For example, +2d6K, Only up to 2x base DC (-1/2), OAF: Weapon (-1). Active Cost: 30 Real Cost: 12. You can season with additional Limitations to make it cheaper. For instance, if you wanted it to have a 1 turn cooldown, you could add Delayed Use: 1 Turn (-1/2) drops the real cost to 10. Requires a Power Roll (-1/2) and you are down to 9 pts. Looks like you got another -1/2 in Limitations already so it finalized around 7 Real Cost.

 

Just my personal take on the matter.

[dmjalund]

Re: what is appropriate for "spell" or "weapon-based" powers

 

I'd consider weapon of opportunity IF the player had MANY weapons at his disposal. However, his accessibility to weapons not currently "equipped" will be be difficult to access. Essentially, as a GM, I PROBABLY would require the player to retrieve his weapon back before that power becomes accessible again.

 

With that in mind, would you still stick with your assessment?

 

Thanks for your help. I truly am thankful, even if I come off argumentative. Just want to be prepared if a player argues the cost for a power.

Consodering the fantasy genre, he should also be able to use it with weapons taken from defeated enemies

[Lucius]

Re: what is appropriate for "spell" or "weapon-based" powers

 

You could just modify the Haymaker rule, and say it's -5 OCV rather than DCV.

 

As for the Focus rules: in the game you mean to simulate, are warriors ever deprived of weapons? Are magicians ever without their wands or other tools of power?

 

If these items are seldom or never grabbed or destroyed or knocked away in combat, I would say they are perhaps not Accessible. If the characters never or almost never have to do without them, I would say they are perhaps not Foci at all. Something to consider.

 

Unsurprisingly, you're not the first to propose Final Fantasy Hero. You may find useufl ideas here...

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/1722-Final-Fantasy-HERO

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/72056-Final-Fantasy-Style-Summons

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/44754-Final-Fantasy-potions-and-items-and-Monsters

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/65102-Final-Fantasy-Hero

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/56563-Final-Fantasy

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/44349-Final-Fantasy-HERO-Limit-Breaks

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

 

The palindromedary observes that this may be the Latest thread on this topic but is probably not the Final one

[yukonhorror]

Re: what is appropriate for "spell" or "weapon-based" powers

 

all good points.

 

My main concern was spells as compared to weapon powers. I think if I make it universal (all OAF or all OIF, etc...) that will keep the balance. Basically, I don't want the mage having an advantage over the fighter.

 

As for the final fantasy links, yeah on another post somebody game me those links, but thanks.

 

The big difference between me and them is that I am not working from scratch. The game I am converting is already in table-top format. It is just cramming their ideas (which are similar just "different") into the HERO framework.

 

And I think I'll stick to +HKA for "extra" damage. I am going to allow the players to improve their powers, but I am giving them a base construction (this is the minimum that needs to be bought).

[yukonhorror]

Re: what is appropriate for "spell" or "weapon-based" powers

 

The more time I spend with the books, the better I get at understanding the norms. I think what is even better than +HKA is CSL, just like how the weaponmaster talent is built.

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: what is appropriate for "spell" or "weapon-based" powers

 

I haven't played a FF game in a long time, but I'm wondering about access to "magic stuff" (which is essentially what Materia is in the FF series). How hard is it to get, and can it be permanently used up if you use it too often?

[Doc Democracy]

Re: what is appropriate for "spell" or "weapon-based" powers

 

My first thought was about the double damage thing. What you have to be careful about in conversion is achieving the effect despite the different systems.

 

In D&D double damage means, on average, you do double the hit points to your target. If you double the damage in HERO you are likely, on average to do much more than twice the BODY or twice the STUN.

 

For example - 6D6 Hand Attack does 21 STUN and 6 BODY. Against 15 PD this does 6 STUN, 0 BODY. If you double the damage it does 27 STUN, 0 BODY. More than four times the STUN damage. To achieve an average of double damage +2D6 would work.

 

Doc

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: what is appropriate for "spell" or "weapon-based" powers

 

My first thought was about the double damage thing. What you have to be careful about in conversion is achieving the effect despite the different systems.

 

I've got some notes on converting D&D 4e to Hero. I figured that +1x weapon damage was equivalent to +1 DC. It scaled with what what I was using for spell damage, so the classes all had roughly the same damage output.