Multiple Attack and DCV bonuses

[yukonhorror]

This is sort of a two-parter.

 

I want a multiple atk that isn't so detrimental to defense. So I was thinking of setting it up as:

 

Double Cut: +3 DCV OAF (-1) only with multiple attack {link} (-1/4), instant (-1/2), nonpersistent (-1/4).

 

First question, does this have an active cost of 30 or 15. It is a characteristic power, so I'd think it'd cost 15 (5/+1 DCV). However, in the Aid/etc... section, it says powers should have half effect for boosting defenses like DCV. In that case, it'd cost 30. Does this apply to boosting DCV as a characteristic power??

 

Second question, when I halve the DCV as a result of the multiple attack, is that before or AFTER I add the +3?

 

Bonus question, did I miss something in multiple attack that can get around halving your DCV when using it??

[Nevenall]

Re: Multiple Attack and DCV bonuses

 

1. If you are buying the DCV characteristic as a power then that would be 15 Active Points.

2. Halving of OCV or DCV is always the last thing you do.

No, you can't really get around halving your DCV for multiple attacks.

 

Also, taking Instant means you can't also take non-persistent. Instant powers are non-persistent by definition. However, you totally don't want to take Instant on DCV because it will last for, at most, the one segment in which you make an attack, and then go away. In other words it would be practically useless.

 

What's the effect you are trying for? Is your goal to do more damage to one person, or to hit more then one target? There might be a clearly way to accomplish it then trying to circumvent multiple attacks.

[torchwolf]

Re: Multiple Attack and DCV bonuses

 

This is sort of a two-parter.

Or maybe a 2.5-parter.

 

I want a multiple atk that isn't so detrimental to defense. So I was thinking of setting it up as:

 

Double Cut: +3 DCV OAF (-1) only with multiple attack {link} (-1/4), instant (-1/2), nonpersistent (-1/4).

You could change Only With Multiple Attack to Only To Counteract Multiple Attack Penalties, though if built as a +3 DCV ability the difference might not even come up.

EDIT: Instant is not very good for DCV since it wouldn't last the Phase, as Nevenall pointed out.

Multiple attack is already a very powerful ability so if you're making this generally available you'll need to compare it to other generally available abilities - run a brief mock combat with a few prewritten characters from a book and have one of them use this; you'll see the effects. Multiple attacks are often used as combat finishers while enemies are unable to counterattack because of the lowered DCV, allowing it to be used more often can result in first strike contests.

I'm not saying you shouldn't do it, just commenting on possible ramifications, so feel free to disregard.

If you want it generally available you can build it and then define it as a Talent (6E1, p447). This approach works well for abilities you want to have a set effect for all characters, and suits Fantasy campaigns, though maybe not Champions campaigns.

 

First question' date=' does this have an active cost of 30 or 15. It is a characteristic power, so I'd think it'd cost 15 (5/+1 DCV). However, in the Aid/etc... section, it says powers should have half effect for boosting defenses like DCV. In that case, it'd cost 30. Does this apply to boosting DCV as a characteristic power??[/quote']

The Adjustment Powers notes on half effect against defensive abilities (Characteristics or Powers, but it may also apply to Talents built that way) ONLY applies to the effects of Adjustment Powers.

Anything built with Characteristics (or other set values that add) just add directly.

 

Second question' date=' when I halve the DCV as a result of the multiple attack, is that before or AFTER I add the +3?[/quote']

DCV (or OCV) halvings always occur last (6E2 p36-37).

 

Bonus question' date=' did I miss something in multiple attack that can get around halving your DCV when using it??[/quote']

No, there is none. Your approach is good, Penalty Skill Levels would not be rules legal, and Combat Skill Levels would be more expensive (buying DCV instead is recommended).

 

EDIT: Too slow there. Above is a more concise answer saying the same thing I did, plus Nevenall also noticed the Instant/Non-Persistent issue.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Multiple Attack and DCV bonuses

 

If you want more attacks at less or no penalty, buy Speed. That's what it is for. Also consider Limited Speed or Aids to Speed.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Multiple Attack and DCV bonuses

 

If you want more attacks at less or no penalty' date=' buy Speed. That's what it is for. Also consider Limited Speed or Aids to Speed.[/quote']

 

Or Autofire.

[dmjalund]

Re: Multiple Attack and DCV bonuses

 

This beggars the question - how the heck do you get DCV that works when your helpless (situations when you are usually at 0 DCV)?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Multiple Attack and DCV bonuses

 

This beggars the question - how the heck do you get DCV that works when your helpless (situations when you are usually at 0 DCV)?

 

I might start by looking at Persistent.

[Vanguard]

Re: Multiple Attack and DCV bonuses

 

No, you can't really get around halving your DCV for multiple attacks.

 

Not entirely true. I believe APG has "Defensive Attack" which only gives you a -2 to DCV when multiple attacking.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Multiple Attack and DCV bonuses

 

This beggars the question - how the heck do you get DCV that works when your helpless (situations when you are usually at 0 DCV)?

 

You might try looking at the problem from the other side - why isn't the character helpless in this situation? You can they buy powers to reflect the, "why," rather than trying to work the mechanics.

[dmjalund]

Re: Multiple Attack and DCV bonuses

 

You might try looking at the problem from the other side - why isn't the character helpless in this situation? You can they buy powers to reflect the' date=' "why," rather than trying to work the mechanics.[/quote']he is either very small, or perhaps patially out of phase with reality. Stuff I would have no problem otherwise buying as extra DCV

[prestidigitator]

Re: Multiple Attack and DCV bonuses

 

Or Autofire.

Yes. True. I agree.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Multiple Attack and DCV bonuses

 

he is either very small' date=' or perhaps patially out of phase with reality. Stuff I would have no problem otherwise buying as extra DCV[/quote']

My general approach is to allow DCV bought as Persistent to be applied after multiplying by 1/2 or 0, but to very carefully monitor how, why, and how much it is done. Inherent small size is one case where I will allow it, for example, but I'll typically require that the character also take the Complications that go with small size. Of course, Persistent might not be quite right in the case of Shrinking-like powers (which should behave similarly but can't be on continuously and don't impose long-standing complications), so maybe that's not quite the right Advantage. I guess it's some Persistent-like Advantage by the same name.

 

Also I make a point at times of turning those DCV levels against the character slightly. For example, if a friend is trying to hit them with something and its not a case where the character can actively help with the action (e.g. the character is falling through the air and his teammate is trying to catch him), those DCV bonuses are going to come into play whether the character wants them to or not (i.e. yeah, you can reduce your DCV to 0 for your friend, but remember those DCV levels due to your size apply after your DCV is multiplied by zero...).

[yukonhorror]

Re: Multiple Attack and DCV bonuses

 

WOW, lots of replies.

 

Thanks guys.

 

From what I read in the first part of 6e1, to convert a persistent power to instant, you apply both non-persistent and instant for a total of -3/4 (the non-persistent converts to constant and the instant converts it to ... well instant).

 

As for autofire, this is for melee atks only.

 

Directed at the Speed question, two things. I am not building a character for myself. I am designing powers for "classes" in a final fantasy game I am building that is closely based on the game developed at http://www.returnergames.com. Only a "fighter" will be able to take this power. Any player can take speed or use multiple attack. Only a fighter can take double-cut.

 

As for the bonus not lasting the until the next phase I have more questions.

 

How long does the 1/2 DCV last?? Might put this in rules questions for steve to answer. Seems fundamental.

 

I want the DCV bonus to last till his next phase. No longer, no shorter. I don't want the it to be constant, cause that seems to me the player has conscious control on when it ends. As a GM, I don't want to FORCE him to stop it after a phase. I'd rather the core mechanics of the game do that for me, so it is balanced against the rest of the classes/monsters/etc...

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Multiple Attack and DCV bonuses

 

How long does the 1/2 DCV last??

 

Normally, a character's DCV lasts until the beginning of his next Phase.

 

So say a DEX 20 SPD 4 character is attacked on Phase 2 and aborts his Phase 3 action to Dodge. He gets the +3 DCV bonus from the Dodge maneuver until DEX 20 initiative on Phase 6.

So in a way, it's a 'persistent' effect. If he had extra DCV or CSL's with the Instant Limitation they would only apply on the 1st Phase they are used (Phase 2) and no others.

[MorpheousXO]

Re: Multiple Attack and DCV bonuses

 

WOW' date=' lots of replies.I want the DCV bonus to last till his next phase. No longer, no shorter. I don't want the it to be constant, cause that seems to me the player has conscious control on when it ends. As a GM, I don't want to FORCE him to stop it after a phase. I'd rather the core mechanics of the game do that for me, so it is balanced against the rest of the classes/monsters/etc...[/quote']

 

Then take off the non-persistent and the instant. The "only with multiple attack" limitation covers exactly what you want. The power might always be on, but it only actually affects the character when he uses multiple attack. Non-persistent and instant will make it so that it only works in the moment that he uses the multiple attacks in the combat order, strictly speaking possibly only on his dex in that segment, or more liberally it would only last til the end of the segment in which he multiple attacks.

 

To put it another way, using the limitation "only with multiple attacks", the character will only have the added DCV from double-cut from the moment he uses multiple attack then through to his next phase, unless he multiple attacks again, in which case he will get it again. It will work as long as the 1/2 DCV Modifier.

 

Also, if the character aborts to a defensive action he loses the DCV from double-cut since he's burning his next phase early for a defensive benefit, but he also loses the 1/2 DCV from multiple attack.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Multiple Attack and DCV bonuses

 

Your approach is good' date=' Penalty Skill Levels or Combat Skill would not be rules legal.[/quote']I understand that Penalty Skill Levels aren't rules-legal (even if I don't agree with the rule), but why arent' Combat Skill Levels legal?

[torchwolf]

Re: Multiple Attack and DCV bonuses

 

I understand that Penalty Skill Levels aren't rules-legal (even if I don't agree with the rule)' date=' but why arent' Combat Skill Levels legal?[/quote']

Yes, I expressed that badly, thanks for correcting me.

CSLs with All Combat would work (though more expensive), but since you can't buy CSLs with DCV anymore, it is suggested that you purchase DCV instead for that purpose.