6E What happened to HKA?

[Vondy]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

My wife purchased a game called rio mino. Its played on a board with dice that have to be fit together based on their facings. The game itself is not so great, though my daughters love it. But... while we were playing I noted, when totaled up, each die has faces valuing 1, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5. Can any one say old school StunX die?

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]37022[/ATTACH]

[randian]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

Can any one say old school StunX die?

Almost. A StunX die is 1, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Why does this game have such strange dice?

[Vondy]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

Almost. A StunX die is 1' date=' 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Why does this game have such strange dice?[/quote']

 

I prefer 1, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5 for distribution.

[RexMundi]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

I've actually got d5's I use for that, and d3's for the half dice.

 

~Rex

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

I am willing to accept some discrepancies in different builds of similar characters resulting in different point costs' date=' but paying 32 more points for less effective abilities seems a little unreasonable. I'm not generally a minmaxer, but I'm certainly going to think twice about the build when the differences are that extreme.[/quote']

 

Or you can do like me and make STR cost two points per, and remove the lim on HA's. Then both builds cost eighty-five points. Yes, it cost eight points more than buying it the long way using the vanilla rules, but, since the lim on HA isn't actually limiting and is only there to make it cost less than STR, I don't think that the extra cost is uncalled for.

 

EDIT: This does also does increase the cost of TK, but I'm not even sure if it needs to be a separate power at this point. The cost structure of TK seems to be STR, Ranged +1/2, Indirect(fixed origin variable path) +1/2, Requires an Attack Roll for all uses of the power -1/2. -0, No Casual Strength, Does not Resist Grab or Throw -1/2. The fact that it's a power just seems to be there to prevent limitation stacking, which doesn't even seem like it could be that abusive for this power anyway. And the ability to remove the attack roll requirement for extra point cost or otherwise customize the build doesn't seem that abusive either, even if it doesn't set off damage shields.

[prestidigitator]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

The cost structure of TK seems to be STR' date=' Ranged +1/2, Indirect(fixed origin variable path) +1/2, Requires an Attack Roll for all uses of the power -1/2.[/quote']

Say what? What application of Strength would you say doesn't require an attack roll, exactly? I wouldn't model TK with any such Limitation.

[Ice9]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

That limitation, no. However, "no casual strength, does not resist grab or throw" is worth at least -1/2, IMO.

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

Point. Although, it should still be there as -0 limitation since you need to make an attack roll just to pick up a pencil.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

since the lim on HA isn't actually limiting and is only there to make it cost less than STR, I don't think that the extra cost is uncalled for.

 

No Casual Strength, Does not Resist Grab or Throw -1/2.

 

This seems hugely inconsistent to me. A Hand Attack does not have casual STR, resist Grabs or Throws, assist in any attack other than straight damage, add to HKA's, influence encumbrance, provide lifting... Seems like a lot more than -1 to move STR to Hand Attack if not resisting Grab and Throw is worth -1/2.

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

Aargh! Damn you, Hugh! You make a valid point! Now I'm conflicted. Maybe -1/4 for each lim?

[Greywind]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

Point. Although' date=' it should still be there as -0 limitation since you need to make an attack roll just to pick up a pencil.[/quote']

Not necessarily. If done during combat, I can see that it might require an attack roll. Any other time it just adds a non-essential die roll.

[prestidigitator]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

Point. Although' date=' it should still be there as -0 limitation since you need to make an attack roll just to pick up a pencil.[/quote']

 

Not necessarily. If done during combat' date=' I can see that it might require an attack roll. Any other time it just adds a non-essential die roll.[/quote']

 

Do not disparage Pencil-Pushing Hero! You do so at your own peril: you may be audited!

[Ice9]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

This seems hugely inconsistent to me. A Hand Attack does not have casual STR, resist Grabs or Throws, assist in any attack other than straight damage, add to HKA's, influence encumbrance, provide lifting... Seems like a lot more than -1 to move STR to Hand Attack if not resisting Grab and Throw is worth -1/2.

Compared to Strength. Hand Attack is highly overpriced*. However, pricing it more accurately would make it significantly cheaper than a No Range Blast. Maybe Strength is undercosted? I'm not sure.

 

*Yes, this is IMO - but look at it! Strength gives you so many more defensive and offensive options than Hand Attack - throwing heavy things for an AoE ranged option, for one. Even if you say that the character is question has no interest in those combat manuevers, never throws things, and never has any utility need for high Strength, there's still the defensive aspect. Grab and Entangle are not something you can pick whether to be subject to not - any character is going to get a benefit from resisting those.

[randian]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

Compared to Strength. Hand Attack is highly overpriced*.

That can be mitigated. That's why I like multipowering HA and STR (or even better end-only-to-activate Density Increase). Use HA only to provide flexibility through advantaged attacks: the 1 hex accurate HA, the armor piercing HA, the affects desolid HA. Use the DI slot for general STR goodness like full normal damage attacks and resisting grab/entangle.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

Compared to Strength. Hand Attack is highly overpriced*. However, pricing it more accurately would make it significantly cheaper than a No Range Blast. Maybe Strength is undercosted? I'm not sure.

 

*Yes, this is IMO - but look at it! Strength gives you so many more defensive and offensive options than Hand Attack - throwing heavy things for an AoE ranged option, for one. Even if you say that the character is question has no interest in those combat manuevers, never throws things, and never has any utility need for high Strength, there's still the defensive aspect. Grab and Entangle are not something you can pick whether to be subject to not - any character is going to get a benefit from resisting those.

 

As time goes by I am leaning closer and closer to the camp in favor of increasing the cost of STR.

 

and from an old post from a somewhat related thread:

 

I forget where I first saw it but someone on the board once gave an alternative breakdown of Normal Damage methods for Hero very similar to the 10 point 'base killing attack' (which then assigned Ranged or STR Adds Damage).

 

For Normal Damage, this base cost would be ~ 3 points per d6 and it then gets the following potential (+1/2) Advantages: Can be used as STR (current STR), Ranged (current EB), Advantages stack with STR* (current HA) and the combo of Can be used as STR & Ranged (current TK).

 

*This is pure speculation on my part but it's the best I can come up with to explain the minimum 5 active cost per d6 for this version.

 

Note, if this was RAW then you end up with the potential to build a Normal Attack with Advantages stack w/STR & Ranged for ~ 6-7 points per d6 which is just too effect for both the real as well as active points.

 

The last part wouldn't even be a problem if you increase the cost of STR by the right amount (somewhere between 3/2-2/1). The main issue with this for most folks (including myself) is that it would enhance the elegance of the system in one place at the expense of the most recognizable (assuming an increase of 2/1 is too high anything else will ruin the elegance of the STR lifting table).

[prestidigitator]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

The last part wouldn't even be a problem if you increase the cost of STR by the right amount (somewhere between 3/2-2/1). The main issue with this for most folks (including myself) is that it would enhance the elegance of the system in one place at the expense of the most recognizable (assuming an increase of 2/1 is too high anything else will ruin the elegance of the STR lifting table).

What would ruin the elegance of the lifting table? The amount of Strength and its relation to how much you can lift has nothing to do with how much that Strength actually costs.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

What would ruin the elegance of the lifting table? The amount of Strength and its relation to how much you can lift has nothing to do with how much that Strength actually costs.

 

Serves me right posting with a beer buzz. Complete thoughts can be difficult

Maybe I was thinking of the current 1:1 ratio of cost:damage that STR shares with EB/Blast.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

So, I assume if we change the price of STR, we also change the price of Telekinesis. It's probably underpriced already, as it is costed as ranged STR, but also has the Indirect advantage built in.

 

I've never found STR to be underpriced, at least in games where the weight of gear is not a factor. Bricks do not dominate the games I have played in, although I can see how a more liberal application of the use of objects in combat could change that. I think the solution there is to rethink the rules for use of objects. In particular:

 

- eliminating the "automatic AoE" in favour of either an OCV bonus or a nonselective AoE (when you swing a bus at SpiderMan, his high DCV may enable him to avoid being struck as he dives through a window on one side and out of the window on the other, or uses his Clinging to scamper up one side and down the other rather than taking damage). Suddenly, this looks much more similar to Spreading a ranged attack - no DC penalty (unless the object lacks the defense and BOD to let you use full STR) but you need the object itself.

 

- expanding the penalties for awkwardness of the item in question (unbalanced and non-aerodynamic doesn't seem to begin to cover a man-sized being lifting a bus by its back bumper and swinging it). Perhaps you could buy WF: City Bus to offset this penalty.

 

- setting a mass level at which your attack action is required to heft and balance the object before it can be used as an attack - whether by swinging or throwing it.

 

I find 4 points for Hand Attack an unreasonably high price compared to 4 points to enhance the effects of all MA attacks. I'd suggest a more appropriate structure would be a -1/4 limit that permits all the combat-type effects of STR to be enhanced (lift and throw being the elements lost) for either MA maneuvers or normal combat maneuvers, and -1/2 for enhancing only the straight damage done by STR. If this attack is advantaged, then the STR used in it gets pro rated if it lacks the same advantage.

 

The "casual STR" issue is largely eliminated by the "casual use of other powers" introduced in 6e. Simply allow a casual Blast against the same target Our Hero is permitted to shrug off with Casual STR changes a lot.

 

Yes, Grab can be powerful., It also means being an easy target with your 1/2 DCV, which I find is a pretty good balance. As well, many Grabbed targets still have attacks they can use - only two limbs are grabbed unless you take Sweep penalties. That leaves headbutts, kicks and all those Powers that don't originate from the hands. Of course, if you allow no creativity for the Grabbed opponent, instead rendering him completely paralyzed, Grab, and by extension STR, becomes much more powerful.

[Markdoc]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

Serves me right posting with a beer buzz. Complete thoughts can be difficult

Maybe I was thinking of the current 1:1 ratio of cost:damage that STR shares with EB/Blast.

 

You can retain that, if you think of STR as HA + stuff - which it is. The concept that STR should cost 5 per DC because EB does has never made sense to me - it makes as much sense to me as saying HA+autofire+AP should cost the same as EB. Why should it cost the same? You get extra stuff. STR was never (and still isn't) just about doing damage. So if STR is a DC + other stuff, then STR should logically cost more.

 

During the lead-in to 6e, I suggested that we should recognise that a "raw" DC actually costs 3 (not 5) and can be modified by ranged (+1/2) or STR adds (+1/2). As it was then (under 5E), AVLD (resistant defences +1 1/2), does BOD (+1), Increased BOD (+1) gave you killing attacks at 15 per dice.

 

Sadly that suggestion (that we dump killing attacks as a seperate power and just fold them into what's now AVAD) was not accepted but the math holds up.

 

That would have allowed us to ignore all this stuff about damage adding and special rules (for example AVAD, doesn't work normally if you choose "resistant defence" as the defence and "Does Body" - it has special rules to make EB or HA work the same way as KA).

 

You'd end up with a simple structure:

 

A DC costs 3 points. It's unranged and doesn't add to anything. You can use this for attacks where STR logically should not add to the effect (nerve pinch, a Taser glove, etc)

It can add to STR (+1/2) or be ranged (+1/2) or be a killing attack (only vs resistant DEF, does BOD) or area effect or all the other things you can do with a DC: Mental Blast, for example is a 3 point DC with AVAD (mental defence +1 1/2, Line of sight, +1/2) so it costs about 10 points per D6 exactly as now. DC for martial arts is a 3 point DC with +1/4 "adds to martial arts maneuvers"

And a DC adds to STR (if you bought that advantage) exactly as HA currently does - simply prorate the damage with regard to any advantages, removing all the angst about doubling rules.

 

A lot of the clutter and special gotchas built into 6E would vanish. And gotchas and special rules are - IMO - a sign that something is wrong with your underlying rules anyway.

 

I am actually thinking about houseruling this into my next campaign. Killing attacks are out: we use standard attacks for everything. Killing attacks are just attacks that ignore resistant defence. DCs cost three points, STR stays at 1 point per point of STR.

 

cheers, Mark

[Susano]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

I'm sorry... I know I was supposed to hold the HKA for a while. But I seem to have lost it. I'll check behind the couch.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

Markdoc, under your structure, can I:

 

- buy "ranged" and "enhanced by X" for as total of +1? This allows me to have my 20 STR character, for example, buy 4 DC's, Enhanced by STR, Ranged for 24 points and do 8 DC's at range.

 

- take 3 point DC's that are enhanced by something other than STR? For example, my Blast is enhanced by my Drain power, not by my STR, or my Mental powers are enhanced by Ego? This has always been a pet peeve - if an HKA can be enhanced by STR, why can't an RKA be enhanced by Blast, or a Mind Control enhanced by Ego?

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

Because they aren't characteristics? I could see Blast enhanced by EGO, or HA enhanced by DEX, or some other combination of attack power and characteristic with a roll. But your examples don't really make that much sense, especially since under Mardok's system an RKA is an advantaged Blast.

 

I'm pretty sure the reason they didn't go with Mardok's system is advantage stacking. Under his system a killing attack has +4 in advantages. If you added penetrating to a 1D6 HKA it would work out to cost a mere 16 points. Now, I could see using the 3-point DC as a meta power on which the other attack powers are designed against, but not as an actual power in the book. HA, Blasts, and Killing Attacks would still have to be separate powers. On the bright side, if you did this then it would be obvious that HKAs and RKAs are meant to be advantaged HAs and Blasts so we wouldn't have any arguments on why the DC Doubling Limit isn't a default rule on HKA's.

[prestidigitator]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

I think Markdoc's proposed framework would work if we went to multiplicative Modifiers. Then the cost of an Advantage wouldn't purely be a function of Base Points, but also what other Advantages are on the power (e.g. "the rest of the Active Points" of the power). It could do a great deal toward removing things like the surcharges for Autofire on attacks with other Advantages and maybe the Does Body Advantage also.

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

I've never been quite clear on how multiplicative modifiers would work. How would you calculate the cost for a 3d6 Blast, Penetrating +½, Reduced Endurance(No END) +½; OIAID -¼, Unified Power -¼? I'm thinking that it would be 15 * 3 / 2 * 3 /2 = 33.75 rounded to 34 Active Points. Costing 34 * 4 / 5 * 4 / 5 = 21.76 rounded to 22 Real Points. Is that right?

 

EDIT: No, wait. Maybe it's like this 3 / 2 * 3 / 2 * 4 / 5 * 4 / 5 = 9 / 4 * 3 / 5 = 27 / 20, so the point cost is 15 * 27 / 20 ≈ 20 Real Points. No, wait. 4 / 5 * 4 / 5 isn't 3 / 5; it's 16 / 25. So that's 9 / 4 * 16 / 25 = 144 / 100. So, thats 144% of 15, so 22 points again. It's probably simpler to do 15 * 9 / 4 * 16 / 25 ≈ 22 Real Points.

[Markdoc]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

Markdoc, under your structure, can I:

 

- buy "ranged" and "enhanced by X" for as total of +1? This allows me to have my 20 STR character, for example, buy 4 DC's, Enhanced by STR, Ranged for 24 points and do 8 DC's at range.

 

To answer your question, yes, you can and no, it doesn't. I've already noted that you prorate your STR by the same advantages, so your 20 STR allows you to add 2 DC, not 4. That's still 6 DC. You'd spend 27 points to get 6DC usable at range (ie: EB) but you are also paying more END (2 for your STR + 2 for your DCs, vs 3 for a straight EB) - and you already paid for your STR. And of course this system is self limited - it gets progressively less and less efficient to prorate your STR - meaning that even a really strong character can gain some flexibility this way, but can't outshine a dedicated blaster at range.

 

- take 3 point DC's that are enhanced by something other than STR? For example' date=' my Blast is enhanced by my Drain power, not by my STR, or my Mental powers are enhanced by Ego? This has always been a pet peeve - if an HKA can be enhanced by STR, why can't an RKA be enhanced by Blast, or a Mind Control enhanced by Ego?[/quote']

 

I'd say yes to using different characteristics, though I'd require an advantage similar to "Alternative combat value" (ie: +1/4) since STR is primarily a damage-adding Stat. Being able to use EGO for example to boost damage would allow you to double dip on EGO as a mentalist, to a small extent, since it does other things as well. I'd say no to allowing powers to enhance one another - powers and characteristics operate in fundamentally different ways, and it's too open to abuse.

 

cheers, Mark