6E What happened to HKA?

[JPicasso]

In 4th, and presumably 5th, there was a built in limitation on Hand-to-Hand Killing attacks that the damage from STR could only serve to double the base damage on a HKA. The 6ed seems to have removed that, and Hero Designer confirms.

 

Is this an oversight? Is this to model the fact that if I'm strong enough, I can throw a 1pip shuriken through someone? and boost it up to a 3D6 HKA with my 25 str?

 

Personally, I found the x2 dmg very handy for keeping KA more reasonable level.

 

...I see this is handled with the "real weapon" modifier. Does any one play with this?

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

I think the definition of, "base damage" got too complicated. The GM can still limit what can be added.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

I think the definition of' date=' "base damage" got too complicated. The GM can still limit what can be added.[/quote']

 

Correct. There was some effort to simplify the "adding damage" rules, and one of the ways that happened was the HKA doubling with STR. GM still has the option to cap at 2x base DC.

[randian]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

Does any one play with this?

Yes. Turn the question around: "Can I really boost 1 DC of Martial Damage Class up to 6d6 with my 25 STR? That's insane!"

[prestidigitator]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

I thought the doubling rule was a pretty sensible limit. I probably would have gone the other way: instead of dropping the restriction on Killing Attacks, I would have added it to Normal Attacks. I'd be in favor of only allowing hand-to-hand Normal Damage through a Hand Attack, and only allowing the HA damage to be up to doubled through Strength, then giving everyone 1d6 HA as an Everyman ability. The built-in mandatory limitation to HA could then be removed (considering cost, the extras you get for Strength--lifting, grabbing, etc.--would make up for the restriction that it can only add to hand-to-hand damage, not inflict HTH damage "on its own").

[Enforcer84]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

I think the definition of' date=' "base damage" got too complicated. The GM can still limit what can be added.[/quote']

 

That's ridiculous. But ok.

[JPicasso]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

Well then, I think I agree with most of you.

 

1. I do not agree with the idea that base damage was complicated.

2. The concept of arriving at a 6d6 KA with only paying 5 pts for the first 1pip is ridiculous.

3. The doubling rule is a good one.

4. Pres, I do like your idea of buying HA the same as HKA and using str to double it. I think I like it a lot. One could still buy large amt of str to counter grabs and escapes, but the "attack" value of your str would be limited to doubling your HA. This would bring both of these two powers in line with each other in terms of DCs and would make a multipower with both HA and HKA more efficient and useable. In truth we rarely ran into this trouble with HA, it was usually tacked on as an extra 1 or 2 d6 to enhance a strong, but not "primary brick" strong.

 

However, now I suppose I have to mosey on over to the HD forums to find a good way to include the doubling rule w/o editing every description on KA.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

The Damage Adding rules were too complicated. Maybe not for just adding STR and HKA, but the difference between how velocity based damage, Killing Damage, Normal Damage, increased Damage Classes (which were different whether applied to normal or killing damage) from Maneuvers, CSLs, add up was incredibly overly complex. Removing the "Killing Attacks can only be doubled by STR" rule was changed, not because it was in and of itself "bad" or "broken" but because it was just one more arbitrary exception to the damage adding rules.

[archermoo]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

2. The concept of arriving at a 6d6 KA with only paying 5 pts for the first 1pip is ridiculous.

 

How about arriving at an 18d6 normal attack when only paying 5pts (that then gets a -1/4 limitation) for the first 1d6? Both would require you also have paid for an 85 STR.

 

Of note the core rules (Toolkitting: Adding Damage on 6E2 p99) do specifically mention that a lot of Refs might find a general rule of thumb that the damage adding rules cannot more than double the base damage of any attack.

[archermoo]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

The Damage Adding rules were too complicated. Maybe not for just adding STR and HKA' date=' but the difference between how velocity based damage, Killing Damage, Normal Damage, increased Damage Classes (which were different whether applied to normal or killing damage) from Maneuvers, CSLs, add up was incredibly overly complex. Removing the "Killing Attacks can only be doubled by STR" rule was changed, not because it was in and of itself "bad" or "broken" but because it was just one more arbitrary exception to the damage adding rules.[/quote']

 

And in part because the way Killing Damage is applied has changed. In 6e you always get all of either your PD or ED vs the Stun of a KA, regardless of whether you have any resistant defenses at all.

 

And yeah, even though I didn't have any difficulty adding damage under the old rules I am still well aware that they were overly complex with way too many exceptions.

[prestidigitator]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

Oh, I agree the 5E/5ER damage adding rules were ridiculously complicated. However, the doubling rule was around in 4E, and IIRC things were a ton simpler then: you simply couldn't more than double the damage of a KA (and I BELIEVE at that point HA and other additions couldn't more than double the base damage done by Strength either). Stops people from picking up a thumbtack and using it to rip apart a tank, and other such senseless things (not just from a "realistic" common-sense perspective, but from a point-cost, game balance perspective as well).

 

IMO the doubling rule was quite sensible, but after taking a couple steps down a cluttered dead-end alley, the solution was to back up full steam and rip apart EVERYTHING; even the parts that worked well and didn't serve to complicate things. Make "Base Damage" the dice that were paid for in the Attack Power (with Adjustment Powers an option for "circumventing" the doubling rule by increasing that base Attack Power in the first place). Done.

 

Additional damage due to Movement was one of those things that ignored the doubling rule in 5ER. But really: "I charge him with my thumbtack!" Really? Come ON!

[Susano]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

I'd like to point out that Rogue tossed a quarter through the SHIELD heli-carrier (IIRC), and Larry Niven stated that you could punch a marshmallow through a battleship under the right conditions. So having a guy who can lift tons be able to toss a small knife with incredible power makes sense. And all it needs is the use of Real Weapon for the GM to say A) yo can't double the base damage, and that knife still isn't going to harm the MBT over there.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

The whole problem is one of how well you can model the real world and maintain game balance. If I have a 1 pip KA dart, I can't reasonably add any amount of strength to it to make it a lethal attack, the darn thing is just too small. Oh, unless I fire it from a gun at supersonic velocity, in which case it becomes a large caliber bullet. Could a high strength comic book character throw a dart that hard? Probably. Could a fantasy wizard with a strength spell do that? Probably not. Should I let the comic book character do that? Maybe a few times with a Power Skill roll, but not in general unless he buys a KA as part of his suite of abilities.

 

The case for a HA is equally unclear. If I have a 1d6 HA built as a stick, no amount of STR will more than double it because it will break. But if that 1d6 HA is bought as brass knuckles, it would reasonably make anyone's punch hurt more, no matter how strong. In the end it is up to the GM to decide what is reasonable and what isn't. The doubling rule is nice because it is simple, it makes sense for most cases, and it helps maintain balance. It comes down to playability or realism as to which way you want to go.

[archermoo]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

The whole problem is one of how well you can model the real world and maintain game balance. If I have a 1 pip KA dart, I can't reasonably add any amount of strength to it to make it a lethal attack, the darn thing is just too small. Oh, unless I fire it from a gun at supersonic velocity, in which case it becomes a large caliber bullet. Could a high strength comic book character throw a dart that hard? Probably. Could a fantasy wizard with a strength spell do that? Probably not. Should I let the comic book character do that? Maybe a few times with a Power Skill roll, but not in general unless he buys a KA as part of his suite of abilities.

 

The case for a HA is equally unclear. If I have a 1d6 HA built as a stick, no amount of STR will more than double it because it will break. But if that 1d6 HA is bought as brass knuckles, it would reasonably make anyone's punch hurt more, no matter how strong. In the end it is up to the GM to decide what is reasonable and what isn't. The doubling rule is nice because it is simple, it makes sense for most cases, and it helps maintain balance. It comes down to playability or realism as to which way you want to go.

 

Minor quibble: It isn't a matter of how well you can model the real world and maintain game balance. It is a matter of how well you can model heroic fiction* and maintain game balance.

 

*and of course different kinds of heroic fiction need different models

[Escafarc]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

I'd like to point out that Rogue tossed a quarter through the SHIELD heli-carrier (IIRC)' date=' and Larry Niven stated that you could punch a marshmallow through a battleship under the right conditions. So having a guy who can lift tons be able to toss a small knife with incredible power makes sense. And all it needs is the use of Real Weapon for the GM to say A) yo can't double the base damage, and that knife still isn't going to harm the MBT over there.[/quote']

 

Did she do that trick twice? I thought in one of her early(may of been her 1st) appearances(Avengers Annual?) she used Susan B Anthony Dollars to take down a jet.

For gaming purposes I allow Bricks to use Power Skill: Brick Tricks to do this unless they buy it as a power by itself.

[Susano]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

Did she do that trick twice? I thought in one of her early(may of been her 1st) appearances(Avengers Annual?) she used Susan B Anthony Dollars to take down a jet.

For gaming purposes I allow Bricks to use Power Skill: Brick Tricks to do this unless they buy it as a power by itself.

 

You may be right. I only recall small coin and big target.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

And in part because the way Killing Damage is applied has changed. In 6e you always get all of either your PD or ED vs the Stun of a KA' date=' regardless of whether you have any resistant defenses at all.[/quote']

 

I'd be inclined to shell out the 5 points for 1 DC of KA, not to use it in combat with the typical opponent, but to convert my 12d6 normal attack (12 average BOD) to a 4d6+1 HKA (15 average BOD) when dealing with objects that need breaking, entangles, barriers and automatons. Adding 3 BOD for 5 points (or 2 BOD for 4 points if I limit it to Lock Out 5 STR so I stick to 12 DC's) seems like a pretty good deal to me.

 

And yeah' date=' even though I didn't have any difficulty adding damage under the old rules I am still well aware that they were overly complex with way too many exceptions.[/quote']

 

While I agree, I found the major complexities were outside the "can't more than double the HKA". Further, an alternate solution would have been complete abandonment of the "STR adds to HKA" mechanic. If your character concept calls for a bigger HKA because your character is also very strong, buy a bigger HKA. If Flame Man's character concept calls for a bigger RKA because of the superheated plasma surrounding his body, he buys a bigger RKA.

 

The classic rebuttal is "but in fantasy the stronger guy should get to add damage to his KA's". Then make that a campaign rule of the weaponry. You don't generally pay points for gear in a fantasy game anyway. So the sword gets +1 DC for every 5 points of STR in excess of 11, and +1 DC for every appropriate Martial Arts DC added to it, capped at doubling the damage. That adds the flexibility of changing the amount of STR required to add a DC and/or changing the cap where appropriate for certain weapons.

 

I'd like to point out that Rogue tossed a quarter through the SHIELD heli-carrier (IIRC)' date=' and Larry Niven stated that you could punch a marshmallow through a battleship under the right conditions. So having a guy who can lift tons be able to toss a small knife with incredible power makes sense. And all it needs is the use of Real Weapon for the GM to say A) yo can't double the base damage, and that knife still isn't going to harm the MBT over there.[/quote']

 

I'd like to point out a couple of things as well.

 

First, the fact that Rogue could take down a jet with a Susan B Anthony dollar justifies her purchasing the power to do so - it's consistent with the source material. It doesn't indicate the ability should be free or cheap. Johnny Storm's flaming body makes him virtually invulnerable to heat attacks, but we don't give him 30 points of resistant protection versus fire because he paid for Life Support: Extreme Heat. Ben Grimm wraps lampposts around thugs, but no one suggests he should be able to buy a 1d6 Entangle and then add his STR to it.

 

Second, Rogue's trick was ranged, and there is no mechanic to add DC's to a ranged killing attack. We have the throwing rules, but that limits her damage to the combined DEF and BOD of the coin, and normal damage.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

I'd like to point out that Rogue tossed a quarter through the SHIELD heli-carrier (IIRC)' date=' and Larry Niven stated that you could punch a marshmallow through a battleship under the right conditions. So having a guy who can lift tons be able to toss a small knife with incredible power makes sense. And all it needs is the use of Real Weapon for the GM to say A) yo can't double the base damage, and that knife still isn't going to harm the MBT over there.[/quote']

 

 

Derailing for a moment. Rogue and superstrong folks doing that sort of stunt has always bugged me. No matter how strong they are, they can't make the coin go faster than their arm accelerates. Now Flash doing that sort of stuff makes more sense.

 

 

to the discussion, the option for limiting damage to double is mentioned in the book so it seems fine to me. More options as long as they don't overly complicate formerly common simple builds are a good thing.

[RexMundi]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

Power Skill.....it is your Friend. Everything else becomes a Special Effect then.

 

~Rex....sticks with the doubling rule....but is a heavy user of Power Skill for "stunts"....because Tornadoes do whacky stuff with blades of grass all the time....

[randian]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

Stops people from picking up a thumbtack and using it to rip apart a tank' date=' and other such senseless things (not just from a "realistic" common-sense perspective, but from a point-cost, game balance perspective as well).[/quote']

Doing 4d6+1 KA with a 1 pip HKA and 60 STR is senseless and unbalanced, but doing 4d6+1 KA with a 2d6+1 HKA and 30 STR is realistic and balanced? I think it a bizarre definition of "balanced" to say two mechanically identical and cost-identical attack abilities have differing levels of balance, especially in 6E where my choice between the two isn't swayed by bonus figured characteristics.

 

It might indeed be senseless in the real world to rip apart tanks with thumbtacks, but then one doesn't pay character points for thumbtacks. One the other hand, if you're paying precious character points for a thumbtack, you deserve a really, really good one. There are many things in a superhero world much more senseless, bizarre, and impossible than super-powered thumbtacks.

[RexMundi]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

The Power Skill makes all such things equal.

 

~Rex

[archermoo]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

While I agree, I found the major complexities were outside the "can't more than double the HKA". Further, an alternate solution would have been complete abandonment of the "STR adds to HKA" mechanic. If your character concept calls for a bigger HKA because your character is also very strong, buy a bigger HKA. If Flame Man's character concept calls for a bigger RKA because of the superheated plasma surrounding his body, he buys a bigger RKA.

 

The classic rebuttal is "but in fantasy the stronger guy should get to add damage to his KA's". Then make that a campaign rule of the weaponry. You don't generally pay points for gear in a fantasy game anyway. So the sword gets +1 DC for every 5 points of STR in excess of 11, and +1 DC for every appropriate Martial Arts DC added to it, capped at doubling the damage. That adds the flexibility of changing the amount of STR required to add a DC and/or changing the cap where appropriate for certain weapons.

 

Yup, and we had this discussion before the rules were published. One of the more lively ones as I recall.

 

The way I look at it is that buying Strength gives you x number of HtH Damage Classes. The only difference between normal and killing is that you need to buy a Killing Attack to be able to use those Strength DCs as killing damage.

[Vondy]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

There is a subtle distinction to be made between logical and reasonable. In a strictly mechanical sense, the current paradigm is logical, but may render unreasonable results vis-a-vis special effect, genre, or playability. The X2 cap in old editions was an attempt at imposing reasonableness, though the success of that depended on numerous factors that varied from design to design, concept to concept, and game to game, and it could feel arbitrary as a hard-coded standard. It wasn't strictly logical. This is a major principle in adjudicating hero as GM: judging the reasonableness of a given design or ability within the context of the game it will appear in, which isn't a "one ring to rule every game" fit. Its game by game.

[prestidigitator]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

The classic rebuttal is "but in fantasy the stronger guy should get to add damage to his KA's". Then make that a campaign rule of the weaponry. You don't generally pay points for gear in a fantasy game anyway. So the sword gets +1 DC for every 5 points of STR in excess of 11' date=' and +1 DC for every appropriate Martial Arts DC added to it, capped at doubling the damage. That adds the flexibility of changing the amount of STR required to add a DC and/or changing the cap where appropriate for certain weapons.[/quote']

That's true. Or build weapons at twice their "base damage", give them a monumental Strength Minimum, and then only start imposing OCV penalties once you fall below half the damage of the weapon due to lack of Strength. For example, instead of building a short sword as 1d6 with a Str Min of 10, build it as 2d6 with a Str Min of 20. (EDIT: Might want to rename "Strength Minimum", but whatever.)

[Ice9]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

It's funny that many people see this an immediately think "A 6d6 dart / penknife? Ridiculous", because personally, I'm the reverse. I always thought that the "doubling only" rule was the ridiculous one, because I used a different example ... brass knuckles. Say you've got your tough brick. He can punch down a stone wall or splatter most people with a single strike. Now he puts on a pair of spiky gauntlets. Suddenly, his strikes can barely break a wooden plank, and any superhuman foe just laughs them off.

 

For some weapons, limiting the amount of strength makes sense. For others, it does not. In most cases, people are going to define their HKAs in a way that makes sense and isn't stupid. When they don't, that's what GM discretion is for.