6E What happened to HKA?

[Susano]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

Have you seen the images of what happens when a small object (say, a BB) hits a metal plate? The hole after a few plates can be huge.

 

Look while the rules are open ended, the "HKA stops at double the base" is still in the book, Real Weapon can allow the GM to say "now this weapon can't do that", and common sense/play balance can allow you to say "no." My initial point was that in some cases, a small object can do immense amounts of damage, and in supers settings this is often par for the course. As was pointed out before Superman's "super breath" is pretty impossible, but he does it. Why? It's supers.

 

Ah, and I recall Sabre, of the Blood, who could flick steel ball bearings like they were bullets (2d6 RKA.) Granted, this was a power and all, but it was a published power.

[JohnTaber]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

You really think that someone who can punch down brick walls with their bare hands is going to benefit from brass knuckles? I'm sorry' date=' but I don't think so. That's like saying wrapping a leather cover around your aluminum baseball bat is going to significantly increase its damage potential. Not even in the comics, man (not unless they're some kind of special radioactive enchanted alloy or some mumbo jumbo like that).[/quote']

 

I dunno...I would consider that Brass Knuckles would likely have Real Weapon as a limitation. Thus this would be a moot point right? I dunno...I actually like this change for FH.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

Ice, the difference is KA vs normal damage.

 

The brick puts on brassknuckes and gets a 1d6 added to his punch. OK, I'm cool with that.

 

The same brick picks up a pairing knife and suddenly he can cut down a door with it?

No. He should just be punching. The difference is using STR which normally does normal damage vs paying 5 points to make your 55 STR all killing.

 

Should the brass knuckles add any damage? Does Grond's 90 STR really hit like 95 STR with brass knuckles?

 

Another option is to put on the spiky brass knuckles, or the nice smooth ones, and define the attack they do. The spiky knuckles are, perhaps, a 1d6 HKA, and the brass knuckles are, say, a 3d6 Normal attack. That's all they are. But they also Lock Out 5 STR, as they are heavy.

 

So Grond can punch for 18d6 with two bare hands. Or he can put on brass knuckles, and punch for 17d6 and 3d6 as a Multiple Power Attack with that hand. Or he can use his fourth hand, with spiky brass knuckles, to inflict a 1d6 HKA plus a 17d6 normal attack, again as a MPA. Will Grond bother with these weapons for their marginal utility? Probably not - just like comic book bricks tend to rely on their own STR, despite the ease with which they could acquire brass knuckles or a roll of quarters.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

It has often been said that, when converting from another game to the HERO System, one should not focus too closely on recreating the game's mechanical bits with HERO mechanics.

 

In this case, reality is the other game, and physics are the mechanical bits.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

You still haven't explained why paying 55 points to do 4d6+1 with a thumbtack is broken while paying 55 points to do 4d6+1 with a sword isn't. I think your obsession with special effects is misplaced. If player A said "I'm doing 4d6+1 because of my super-heated plasma blast" and player B said "I'm doing 4d6+1 because I'm warping gravity in the local vicinity of the target"' date=' I doubt you'd spend more than a second pondering the special effects involved or spend any time at all worrying that "gravity is a broken special effect". Why, then, is there any reason to care what the special effect of a character's HKA is, when it has no mechanical effect and doesn't save the player any points building the character?[/quote']

 

The thumbtack does 4d6+1 HKA and a 12d6 normal punch as a Multiple Power Attack. Cost: 60 STR + 5 HKA

 

The Sword does 4d6+1 HKA and a 5d6 Normal punch as a MPA. Cost: 25 STR + 30 HKA.

 

Same cost, 7d6 more normal damage. Equitable? Balanced?

 

The Blasters pay 60 points for a Blast and 65 for an RKA to get the same effect as ThumbtackMan and get a 12d6 Normal + 4d6+1 KA as an MPA. Of course, they get the advantage of Range in exchange for giving up the non-damaging advantages of STR. But it seems like Range doesn't justify the extra cost of 60 points, almost doubling points spent (more than doubling unless Blaster sells his 10 STR back).

[Greywind]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

I'd like to point out that Rogue tossed a quarter through the SHIELD heli-carrier (IIRC)' date=' and Larry Niven stated that you could punch a marshmallow through a battleship under the right conditions. So having a guy who can lift tons be able to toss a small knife with incredible power makes sense. And all it needs is the use of Real Weapon for the GM to say A) yo can't double the base damage, and that knife still isn't going to harm the MBT over there.[/quote']As I recall, it went through a window and bounced all over the bridge.

 

A paring knife you didn't pay points for is just a paring knife. One you paid points for is made of unbreakable handwavium and can easily cut down both doors and main battle tank armor.

Not in my game. There is a reason why there is a GAME MASTER.

 

Yeah' date=' so? I can accept that, with enough power behind it, a quarter might acquire enough Armor-piercing to punch all the way thru the heli-carrier. But it's still a quite small object, doing strictly localized damage (unless it hit something critical). If feeling generous, I might allow an AoE Hex from shrapnel in compartments along the quarter's path; but I'd still cap the damage at each point at twice the base.[/quote']As was pointed out, small objects tend to make big holes as they pass through.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

The thumbtack does 4d6+1 HKA and a 12d6 normal punch as a Multiple Power Attack. Cost: 60 STR + 5 HKA

 

The Sword does 4d6+1 HKA and a 5d6 Normal punch as a MPA. Cost: 25 STR + 30 HKA.

 

Would be 35 STR and 30 HKA, for 7d6 Normal. Still, a 5d6 difference.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

It really didn't do much other then cause a Two Front Shriek of *Rogue Fans* Holy Crap that was Cool! ..... *Ms. Marvel Fans* Death to Rogue!!!!!

 

~Rex

 

yeah, I'm one of those Ms Marvel fans.

[RexMundi]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

yeah' date=' I'm one of those Ms Marvel fans.[/quote']

 

You and me Both....Ms. Marvel is the Bomb......I wait for the Iron Age issue where she gets to pull Rogues arms and legs off for us....Idiot Joe over at Marvel flushed her book though but all Ms. Marvel fans know, she'll be back.

 

~Rex

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

Would be 35 STR and 30 HKA' date=' for 7d6 Normal. Still, a 5d6 difference.[/quote']

 

I just subtracted 30 extra STR and put it into the HKA. The lower the KA the bigger the difference.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

Spiky brass knuckles. HKA.

 

If we're really going for realism, the amount of force a weapon can sustain (max DCs added by Strength) is a separate factor from its base damage. You could easily have two swords that both do 1d6 HKA as a base, but one is a willowy fencing saber that could only go up to 1d6+1 at max, and the other is a heavy broadsword that could easily go up to 2d6 or above with enough strength. In many campaigns, this is detail overkill, and is better dealt with by the players picking reasonable weapons for the strength and the GM keeping an eye on it. But if you do want that much precision, then two factors may be the way to go.

 

There is a difference between transforming your STR into a KA by throwing a small object at supersonic velocity and using a high STR with spiky brass knuckles; namely the degree of penetration. As you point out the GM has to keep an eye on it. Besides, there is a published version of spiky brass knuckles (well, for spiked gloves anyway) in one of the Hero weapon lists which describes it as doing 1pip KA in addition to normal punch damage. Great for making an opponent bleed (assuming no rPD), but not really useful for punching through tanks. This seems to me to be a good approach for bricks using little KA like paring knives or thumbtacks where massive Killing damage isn't justified.

[The Main Man]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

First, I noticed this strange bit of rhetoric: HA "adds to STR" but, evidently, STR "adds to HKA." Why not look at HKA the same as HA?

 

Second, consider guns: A real world device for propelling tiny, metal semi-cones at high velocities to kill people. Interestingly, I'm not sure if you could put a bullet in your hands and meaningfully harm even a rabbit. 1 pip HA maybe?

 

But wait, guns are built with RKA, not HKA. That's a convenience. We build grenade launchers as STR that propel RKA foci. Technically a gun is no different than a person chucking a rock at someone else (mechanically speaking). It's all kinetic energy. It just so happens that gunpowder is far better at propelling projectiles than human arms.

 

The doubling rule is not one size that fits all, even in the real world. It can be useful, sure, but it doesn't need to be the standard rule.

[Fireg0lem]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

Our group resolved it this way:

 

You need GM permission (which should generally not be given without a better reason than "cheese") to purchase an attack that you can, under normal circumstances, more than double. This does include advantaged HAs and all HKAs, but does not include HAs with no DC-increasing advantages.

 

Now, this means that the brick can't get a huge array of cheap attack options. But if he picks up a sword or something during a combat scene to use temporarily, he won't do stupidly low damage. It also prevents things like Move Through and Pushing not adding to HKA damage on some characters and other annoyances of the doubling rule.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

First' date=' I noticed this strange bit of rhetoric: HA "adds to STR" but, evidently, STR "adds to HKA." Why not look at HKA the same as HA?[/quote']

 

To me, because HA is more like "STR, only adds to normal damage" (and at that price seems overpriced to me - maybe 3 points or -1/2 limitation would feel better, with 4 points or -1/4 limitation applying to either "all martial maneuvers" or "all non-martial maneuvers" damage/effects.

[Ice9]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

Ok, the "thumbtack" example here is a huge red herring. It sound stupid because you picked a stupid sounding weapon. If I made a paintball gun like this:

 

Paintball Gun - 6d6 RKA, Penetrating x2, Double Knockback

Then it would defy verisimilitude and look dumb. But that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the mechanics of RKA.

 

 

2.) Agreed. Swords and knuckles (or more to the point, Killing Attacks and Normal Attacks) both should be limited similarly. That was the whole point.

However, that was not exactly my point. You're saying that a large sword (made of steel) is durable enough to deliver a 4d6 HKA, but spiky gauntlets (also made of steel) are only durable enough to deliver a 1d6 HKA. That's where "base damage = durability" falls apart, if realism is what you're after.

[prestidigitator]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

However' date=' that was not exactly my point. You're saying that a large sword (made of steel) is durable enough to deliver a 4d6 HKA, but spiky gauntlets (also made of steel) are only durable enough to deliver a 1d6 HKA. That's where "base damage = durability" falls apart, if realism is what you're after.[/quote']

No, I'm saying that spiky gauntlets built as a 1d6 HKA shouldn't be used to do 4d6 damage with Strength, whereas a sword built as a 2d6 HKA reasonably could. Along the same lines, IMO brass knuckles built as 2d6 HA shouldn't be used to do 8d6 damage with Strength, whereas a heavy metal baseball bat built as a 4d6 HA reasonably could.

 

If durability isn't a sound enough argument for you, how about relative scale? Remember that +5 Strength is supposed to represent twice the force; +1 Body damage creates twice as big a hole. If you're using a few batteries to power you're whatchamacallit, adding another battery might give you noticeably more power. If you're powering it off high-voltage lines, adding a measly little battery is going to do nothing significant. I think the doubling rule also represents, to some degree, a good separation of scales (no, "doubling" in the domain doesn't make a great deal of sense on an exponential scale, but it seems to me like a reasonable game-system means of doing it anyway).

[randian]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

Character 2:

10 STR - 0 Character Points

+8d6 HA - 32 Character Points

+3d6 HKA - 45 Character Points

TOTAL COST - 77 Character Points

 

On top of which, Character 1 gets the other benefits of a high STR, and Character 2 does not. Yes, Character 2 can limit his abilities (focus, real weapon, etc) and get the point costs to be similar. But he is still paying more base points for less effective abilities. I am willing to accept some discrepancies in different builds of similar characters resulting in different point costs, but paying 32 more points for less effective abilities seems a little unreasonable. I'm not generally a minmaxer, but I'm certainly going to think twice about the build when the differences are that extreme.

I'd say the number of characters for which that power suite wouldn't be multipowered approximates zero, as are the number of characters who would buy an HKA and have 10 STR. A much less absurd cost is more like 15 (25 STR) + 30 (multipower) + 5 (slots) = 50 points. 5 points is practically in the noise on 400 points.

[Folded]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

I'd say the number of characters for which that power suite wouldn't be multipowered approximates zero' date=' as are the number of characters who would buy an HKA and have 10 STR. A much less absurd cost is more like 15 (25 STR) + 30 (multipower) + 5 (slots) = 50 points. 5 points is practically in the noise on 400 points.[/quote']

 

I'm not talking about what the likeliest build would be, but pointing out how large a difference there is between buying the powers directly and buying them based on STR. What reason is there to do anything BUT buy the high STR, 1 pip HKA? I get a lot more benefits for roughly the same cost (at best). That 50 point Multipower build doesn't give me the same lift, grab/escape or throw effects, and it costs more. Why should I spend more points for fewer benefits? That's the question I'm trying to answer.

[randian]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

As Folded pointed out' date=' it's the cost structure that is problematic (apart from realism/heroic fiction modeling/etc.). A character can convert their STR to killing for almost no cost -- and this has particular benefit for bricks, since it is giving them another top-level attack for that cost.[/quote']

Sure a brick can convert STR to Killing for almost no cost, but why would he want to? For a meaningless extra BODY or two? Setting defenses to 2.5/DC, at 4 SPD and assuming all attacks hit a 4d6 KA does 16 stun per turn (SPT) while 60 STR does 48, or 2.5x more SPT. Setting defenses to 2/DC, said KA does 32 SPT and STR does 72 SPT. Hmm, only 2.25x SPT. If that's the benefit, I think a brick should be paid points to convert their STR to killing.

[Nolgroth]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

So I just want to throw a curveball into this argument. What about campaign limits? If, for instance, the GM sets a hard DC cap at 12 DC, does it matter how the character arrives at that 12 DC in terms of STR vs Base Power vs Martial Maneuvers vs Skill Levels? I mean, once you hit 12 DC, then you hit 12 DC. The idea, in any serious attempt at "realism" that a thumbtack can do anything other than a 1 Pip annoyance is impossible to conceive. On the other hand I have seen movies where toothpicks were propelled with deadly force and read comic books where playing cards were energized into explosive force projectiles. Within the context of those two genres it was okay to have seemingly harmless objects turned into deadly weapons.

 

Just seems to me that campaign limits should far outweigh any doubling rules. Because, on the other foot, if a character were to buy a 9 DC HKA and enough Strength, CSLs, Maneuvers to double that, he still ain't doing more than that theoretical 12 DC damage cap. Leastways not in my campaign. (Note: 12 DC was just an arbitrary number and does not necessarily reflect every campaign.)

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

No' date=' I'm saying that spiky gauntlets built as a 1d6 HKA shouldn't be used to do 4d6 damage with Strength, whereas a sword built as a 2d6 HKA reasonably could. Along the same lines, IMO brass knuckles built as 2d6 HA shouldn't be used to do 8d6 damage with Strength, whereas a heavy metal baseball bat built as a 4d6 HA reasonably could.[/quote']

 

I think the difference is that the HA just adds to a type of damage the character can already do, while the HKA both changes the type and adds to that type of damage.

 

Hypothetically (but not rhetorically) speaking, if there were a Power whose description read something like:

 

"This Power converts the character's hand-to-hand damage from Strength into the same number of Damage Classes worth of Killing Damage, but does not itself add any damage."

 

How much would this Power be worth? In terms of non-hypothetical, current HERO System rules, it would be a 0d6 HKA. 1 point is the minimum cost for any Power, so it would cost 1 point.

 

But... this ability is more powerful the higher the character's STR is, so it seems to naturally want to be an Advantage against STR. But how much of one? +1 would make it cost the same as the character's STR, and the character could buy a full blown HKA and get double the damage for the same cost. +1/2? 5 points for a character with 10 STR, which (coincidentally or not) is how much 1 Damage Class of HKA would cost, which would double to 2 with STR. 30 STR would pay 15 points. Maybe 15 points would be too much. At +1/4, 10 STR would pay 2 points, 30 STR would pay 7 points, 40 STR would pay 10 points. Is 10 points too little for a character with 40 STR to get a 2 1/2d6 HKA? Is 20 points (at +1/2)? I think the +1/2 would sound about right. (Could you apply this Advantage to Blast and turn that into Killing Damage? It would seem to make sense...)

 

But this is all hypothetical (and I'm kind of annoyed I didn't think of this a year and a half ago).

[Folded]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

Sure a brick can convert STR to Killing for almost no cost' date=' [i']but why would he want to[/i]? For a meaningless extra BODY or two? Setting defenses to 2.5/DC, at 4 SPD and assuming all attacks hit a 4d6 KA does 16 stun per turn (SPT) while 60 STR does 48, or 2.5x more SPT. Setting defenses to 2/DC, said KA does 32 SPT and STR does 72 SPT. Hmm, only 2.25x SPT. If that's the benefit, I think a brick should be paid points to convert their STR to killing.

 

Okay, if that's the extent of the value of Killing Damage, why include it at all in the system? (I am not being sarcastic here) It does a little more BODY, and less stun. About all it really accomplishes is to make Players certain to buy up some resistant defenses. Tell me the last time you had a super with less than 8rPD/8rED. I usually start at 12 each.

 

Seems to me that buying an attack with AVAD: rPD or rED would accomplish the same goal as Killing Attacks and eliminate a complicating factor in the game (different types of damage rolling). Of course, HD considers rPD and rED to be Very Common defenses, and it's a +0 wash. It might even be more useful to turn KA's into Normal Attacks with Armor Piercing or a specifically written Advantage (as Chris Goodwin suggests, above). The reduction of the STUNx in 6e seems to take the teeth out of Killing Attacks. No more STUN Lotto make Folded sad.

[prestidigitator]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

I think the difference is that the HA just adds to a type of damage the character can already do' date=' while the HKA both changes the type and adds to that type of damage.[/quote']

Whereas I'd prefer to view it as Strength just adding to the type of damage the character can already do through an Attack Power such as HKA or HA. In my book that's ALL Strength's role should be where damage is concerned.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

I'd say the number of characters for which that power suite wouldn't be multipowered approximates zero' date=' as are the number of characters who would buy an HKA and have 10 STR. A much less absurd cost is more like 15 (25 STR) + 30 (multipower) + 5 (slots) = 50 points. 5 points is practically in the noise on 400 points.[/quote']

 

The reason it would never happen is that the cost is prohibitive. Perhaps the character as envisioned can Multiple Power Atack wth both the HKA and the Hand Attack simultaneously, and as a normal person (not an exceptionally strong one, remembering that even a 10 beats the "normal human" average of 8).

 

Let's assume we're ging for 12 DC attacks. With a 10 STR, the character buys a 10d6 Hand Attack (40 points) and a 3d6+1 HKA (50 points), for a cost of 90 points. If, insteasd, he buys a 30 STR (20 points), a 6d6 Hand Attack and a 2d6 HKA, he pays 80 points and saves 10 points for having the benefit of a higher STR.

 

Maybe he only wants the killing attack. He's not a big, burly guy, but a normal STR character who has been augmented with Unobtainium claws, or a lithe young lass who has been gifted with a powerful magical weapon. So the character has a base 10 STR and a 3d6+1 KA - cost 50 points. Along comes Burly Guy w/ Claws - 30 STR and a 2d6 HKA for the same 50 point cost. He can attack with a Multiple Power Attack of a 4d6 HKA and a 6d6 Normal Punch. He gets all the other benefits of a 30 STR. And he pays nothing for these extra benefits. Of course HKA users always split their HKA between purchased HKA and STR adds - it's the most efficient approach.

 

Sure a brick can convert STR to Killing for almost no cost' date=' [i']but why would he want to[/i]? For a meaningless extra BODY or two? Setting defenses to 2.5/DC, at 4 SPD and assuming all attacks hit a 4d6 KA does 16 stun per turn (SPT) while 60 STR does 48, or 2.5x more SPT. Setting defenses to 2/DC, said KA does 32 SPT and STR does 72 SPT. Hmm, only 2.25x SPT. If that's the benefit, I think a brick should be paid points to convert their STR to killing.

 

The big benefit comes against opponents or chalenges where STUN damage is not as important as BOD damage. Modify the challenge to a horde of automotons and convert your 60 STR (average 12 BOD per attack) to a 4d6 HKA (average 14 BOD per attack), and let's give those Autmotons 8 defenses. Normal atack averages 16 BOD per turn and the KA averages 24 BOD per turn. Pretty significant difference. Bump those defenses to 10 (a tough automoton) and we get 8 damage per turn versus 16.

 

Your example assumes the only challenges the Brick will face can be KO'd with STUN damage. The ability to switch between high STUN damage and high BOD damage will certainly have no value if every chalenge is the same. But many challenges - automatons, barriers, entangles for example - cannot be overcome with STUN damage. Adding BOD damage makes a significant difference in these cases.

[casualplayer]

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

 

2 second fix. Make HA and HKA have a default STR Min of their active point cost, allowing that STR Min to be reduced or bought off entirely through Advantages.