Champions Powers book issues...

[GAZZA]

Champions Powers, pp 16, Create Vacuum power. This describes a "create a vacuum" in a 16m radius that is modelled as a 1 temperature level Change Environment with a linked Darkness to Hearing. The description of the power says that characters in the area are subject to the drowning rules. On the other hand, in the same (Air/Wind) section, on pp 19 we have Suffocation II. This uses the APG rules to implement drowning, on a single character. The problem is that the Create Vacuum (excluding the Darkness effect) is a 5 active point power for a 16m radius, and the Suffocation II is a 20 active point power for a single target (that is arguably not even as good as a vacuum - according to the APG, you can still use powers that require you to speak in such an area, which presumably means it's not necessarily going to count as a vacuum for special effects purposes against sonic attacks and the like). I did ask Steve whether the Create Vacuum power was in error, and received the answer "No". Suffice it to say I disagree...

 

Moving on: In Body Control pp 40 there is the power Contagion, defined as a Drain CON that has NND vs LS (appropriate immunity). Champions Powers lists this as a +1 advantage. If we check 6e1 pp 325, we see that Power Defence is an Uncommon defence, and Life Support is Rare. So it's one step rarer, and because it's an NND it's 1/2 less, so this should be a +0 advantage. There is a linked RKA with the same NND, but even there it should presumably be a +1/2 advantage rather than a +1.

 

I freely confess to not really being 100% on the new Change Environment and No Normal Defence rules in 6e, so it may well be that I'm wrong on both accounts, but I can't see where.

[Vondy]

Re: Champions Powers book issues...

 

In Hero there is almost always more than one correct way to model something. The Most Correct Way is a matter of personal preference, aesthetic, and style. From where I sit, Steve's "no" was a fair answer. As the Line Editor he gets to publish his preferred method. This runs doubly true for the old USPD books, and now Champions Powers, which are just convenient pregen powers done the Steve Way and not a definitive, binding, or exclusive One True Shining Path of Herodom Assembled. I frequently prefer to model things differently than what Steve puts in the books. But he is not "wrong." If you prefer to model things differently, do so.

[GAZZA]

Re: Champions Powers book issues...

 

In Hero there is almost always more than one correct way to model something.

 

Erm - but which is the Steve Way? That's the point. How much does it cost to make people drown? According to Create Vacuum it's 5 points to do it to a 16m radius area, and according to Suffocation II it's 20 points to do it to a single target. I do not see how both of these can be right.

[Vondy]

Re: Champions Powers book issues...

 

Erm - but which is the Steve Way? That's the point. How much does it cost to make people drown? According to Create Vacuum it's 5 points to do it to a 16m radius area' date=' and according to Suffocation II it's 20 points to do it to a single target. I do not see how both of these can be right.[/quote']

 

That the costs vary does not impact the mechanical validity of either build as a correct implementation of different special effects.

[GAZZA]

Re: Champions Powers book issues...

 

So wait - you're saying that if I define my special effects as a vacuum, as opposed to just suffocation, I get to safe 15 points and get a free area effect?

[Vondy]

Re: Champions Powers book issues...

 

So wait - you're saying that if I define my special effects as a vacuum' date=' as opposed to just suffocation, I get to safe 15 points.[/quote']

 

Hero is an open ended modeling system with numerous abstract powers and modifiers with which to model the desired special effect. It is not a dual book accounting system where the costs always line up. The nature of the special effect does impact proper modeling and therefore cost. This is why you will find long-term Hero GMs do not use hard rules of X when approving/rejecting character designs. In the end experience is the only useful determinant when evaluating a character's effectiveness/abusiveness/propriety for play. As for whether you "get to save 15 points" by doing it this way, or even use the Champions Powers book in a given game, that's up to the GM. A lot of GMs would make you purchase a damage based power rather than leverage the drowning rules. Others wouldn't. Both would be right. Both are the respective arbiters of the games they run.

 

 

...and get a free area effect?

 

From where comes this "free," kemosabe? CE is an AoE based power. You paid for it. It just happens, in this case, to be cheap.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Champions Powers book issues...

 

I like the suggestions under "Low Pressure" on 6E2 p. 144: use Change Environment to cause End expenditure, and add Drain Rec (I'd probably make it Constant, NND, Area of Effect) to prevent Recoveries. As far as fire goes, I'd personally rather simulate the SFX problems on the fire powers instead of the vacuum power. Note that although outer space also presents pretty dramatic radiation and temperature hazards (depending on where you are), a vacuum by itself really does not--unless maybe you count the fact that in the long run it is difficult to get rid of body heat unless you have a cold dark sink to radiate heat toward. (The Darkness to hearing certainly does make sense though.)

[GAZZA]

Re: Champions Powers book issues...

 

Hero is an open ended modeling system with numerous abstract powers and modifiers with which to model the desired special effect. It is not a dual book accounting system where the costs always line up. The nature of the special effect does impact proper modeling and therefore cost.

Hmm. As a long time Hero player and GM, I do not entirely agree.

 

The point of Hero is that you model "what does it do", not "what is the special effect". That is why there is no "Fire Bolt" power; instead, you ask "What can the fire bolt do? Is it lethal, or non-lethal? Is it tiring to use?" and so on. This is the core philosophy as espoused in numerous places, for example 6e1pp120 under "Special Effects".

 

In this case, the desired effect is "make the target drown". Whether this is done via creating a vacuum or (eg) changing all the oxygen in the environment into an inert gas should cost the same - the same way that an 8d6 Blast costs 40 points whether you define it as fire or lightning.

 

A lot of GMs would make you purchase a damage based power rather than leverage the drowning rules. Others wouldn't. Both would be right. Both are the respective arbiters of the games they run.

I agree completely. However - most GMs would make you pay the same amount on Monday as they make you pay on Wednesday, to coin an analogy. The Champions Powers book is, effectively, a single "GM" - Steven Long is the credited author, after all.

 

(about the free area effect)

From where comes this "free," kemosabe? CE is an AoE based power. You paid for it. It just happens, in this case, to be cheap.

"Free" in the sense that the first power is not only a lot cheaper, but that it is AE based as well.

 

See, here's the core of my problem with this. I don't want to be in a situation where someone that defines their powers as "I create vacuums" gets a cost break for the exact same mechanical effect as someone who defines their special effect as "I turn oxygen into an inert gas". Now I grant you, in some cases it might be slightly advantageous for one sfx over the other - but that isn't the sort of thing that costs points. Most GMs don't make players with Fire special effects pay extra for the fact that sometimes their powers might cause small fires if they miss, any more than they require electrical special effects to pay extra for the fact that they might sometimes get a couple of DC extra using their powers in a lightning storm or something. (Indeed, 6e1pp120 pretty much explicitly says that such minor bonuses are free, as of course are minor penalties - call them +0 advantages and -0 limitations).

 

Once you start giving vacuum dude free points over inerter dude, you basically encourage players to define their special effects as vacuum creation instead of inert gas transmutation. And that just makes the game poorer as a result. I submit that Hero is not supposed to work that way.

 

Now, if what we're saying here is that the ability to force the drowning rules is not well defined, such that it is up to individual GMs and players to decide, then fair enough. Except that the APG pretty much does define it, the Suffocation II power recognises this, and the Create Vacuum power apparently does not. Are the APG rules not official then? What are we to make of the inconsistency here? Do you get a free "Change Environment Upgrade" if you link a Darkness to the Hearing sense to the power?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Champions Powers book issues...

 

I agree that most NNDs on Drain should be +0, as most NND conditions (including most forms of Life Support, I'm sure) are considered Rare.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Champions Powers book issues...

 

From where comes this "free' date='" kemosabe? CE is an AoE based power.[/quote']

Not in 6E, it's not. You now have to apply the Area of Effect Advantage. See 6E1 p. 174.

[GAZZA]

Re: Champions Powers book issues...

 

I agree that most NNDs on Drain should be +0' date=' as most NND conditions (including most forms of Life Support, I'm sure) are considered Rare.[/quote']

Cool, because it really does seem that this book is a bit spotty.

 

Another one: Induce Heart Attack pp42, defined as an RKA NND vs Power Defence (or artificial/not having a heart). So this is Common down one level to Uncommon, and then 1/2 easier. By my calculations that makes it a +0 advantage, but it's listed as +1/2. Is the problem perhaps that RKAs are counted as vs PD/ED instead of Resistant PD/ED? I would have thought not, but that certainly would make the math work.

[Fireg0lem]

Re: Champions Powers book issues...

 

Yes, RKA's are counted as vs. PD/ED. That's listed under AVAD. The reason is that PD/ED stops their stun.

 

I think the answer is that both ways are legitimate ways to build a drowning power but that whichever way you use should be consistent within your game. In other words, a GM might prefer one over the other, but shouldn't make one player use one way and another play use another way.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Champions Powers book issues...

 

I think the answer is that both ways are legitimate ways to build a drowning power but that whichever way you use should be consistent within your game. In other words' date=' a GM might prefer one over the other, but shouldn't make one player use one way and another play use another way.[/quote']

 

I think this is the key - the cost should not vary based on the special effect. Whether the appropriate base cost is 5, 20 or some other number can only be determined in play, but I think 20 seems like a reasonable base cost.

[Zephrosyne]

Re: Champions Powers book issues...

 

Gazza, the example you sited regarding the Contagion power is already listed as errata. I actually asked Steve about it some time ago. If you check the errata for Champions Powers, it is there.

[Vondy]

Re: Champions Powers book issues...

 

Hmm. As a long time Hero player and GM, I do not entirely agree.

 

The point of Hero is that you model "what does it do", not "what is the special effect". That is why there is no "Fire Bolt" power; instead, you ask "What can the fire bolt do? Is it lethal, or non-lethal? Is it tiring to use?" and so on. This is the core philosophy as espoused in numerous places, for example 6e1pp120 under "Special Effects".

 

In this case, the desired effect is "make the target drown". Whether this is done via creating a vacuum or (eg) changing all the oxygen in the environment into an inert gas should cost the same - the same way that an 8d6 Blast costs 40 points whether you define it as fire or lightning.

 

 

I agree completely. However - most GMs would make you pay the same amount on Monday as they make you pay on Wednesday, to coin an analogy. The Champions Powers book is, effectively, a single "GM" - Steven Long is the credited author, after all.

 

(about the free area effect)

 

"Free" in the sense that the first power is not only a lot cheaper, but that it is AE based as well.

 

See, here's the core of my problem with this. I don't want to be in a situation where someone that defines their powers as "I create vacuums" gets a cost break for the exact same mechanical effect as someone who defines their special effect as "I turn oxygen into an inert gas". Now I grant you, in some cases it might be slightly advantageous for one sfx over the other - but that isn't the sort of thing that costs points. Most GMs don't make players with Fire special effects pay extra for the fact that sometimes their powers might cause small fires if they miss, any more than they require electrical special effects to pay extra for the fact that they might sometimes get a couple of DC extra using their powers in a lightning storm or something. (Indeed, 6e1pp120 pretty much explicitly says that such minor bonuses are free, as of course are minor penalties - call them +0 advantages and -0 limitations).

 

Once you start giving vacuum dude free points over inerter dude, you basically encourage players to define their special effects as vacuum creation instead of inert gas transmutation. And that just makes the game poorer as a result. I submit that Hero is not supposed to work that way.

 

Now, if what we're saying here is that the ability to force the drowning rules is not well defined, such that it is up to individual GMs and players to decide, then fair enough. Except that the APG pretty much does define it, the Suffocation II power recognises this, and the Create Vacuum power apparently does not. Are the APG rules not official then? What are we to make of the inconsistency here? Do you get a free "Change Environment Upgrade" if you link a Darkness to the Hearing sense to the power?

 

First, we simply have different philosophies about special effects and design.

 

Second, its up to the individual GM to be consistent about design methodology in their game. This is the key to running a fair hero game. If the GM is consistent there is no issue.

 

Third, I disagree that Champions Powers immediately equates to "one GM being inconsistent." Steve did not spell out his design methodology and authorial intent (a long term Steve policy) so the best we can do is infer. You and I are inferring different things. We both have a plausible position. Its possible that, in addition to being useful examples, the powers in CP are illustrative examples. If so, they may illustrate more than one way to do something. Or, Steve may not share your approach to special effects. He didn't say. We don't know.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Champions Powers book issues...

 

Steve did not spell out his design methodology and authorial intent (a long term Steve policy)....

As far as I know that's not a general policy but one for the Rules Questions Board. There are other places he seems more willing to go more into design philosophy, like in several sections of the books themselves. Discussion of meta-rules for example, which may come into play in this situation.

[Matt the Bruins]

Re: Champions Powers book issues...

 

In this case, the desired effect is "make the target drown". Whether this is done via creating a vacuum or (eg) changing all the oxygen in the environment into an inert gas should cost the same - the same way that an 8d6 Blast costs 40 points whether you define it as fire or lightning.

 

The thing is, being exposed to hard vacuum doesn't just make you rely on the air in your lungs the way drowning in water does, it also almost instantly pulls the air out of your lungs. NASA info has a physically fit astronaut exposed to near-vacuum conditions losing consciousness in about 14 seconds, as opposed to the couple of minutes the average person can hold their breath underwater.

 

I tend to model vacuum as a Constant RKA 1 point NND (Does BODY) with a +6 Increased Stun Multiplier so that it knocks the average person out in about a Turn but takes 8-10 Turns to get lethal.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Champions Powers book issues...

 

The thing is' date=' being exposed to hard vacuum doesn't just make you rely on the air in your lungs the way drowning in water does, it also almost instantly pulls the air [i']out[/i] of your lungs. NASA info has a physically fit astronaut exposed to near-vacuum conditions losing consciousness in about 14 seconds, as opposed to the couple of minutes the average person can hold their breath underwater.

It has other unpleasant effects on the body as well, but drowning is probably close enough for gamer work. You could probably use CE to cause a faster reduction in End though, by purchasing multiple levels. Thus you could, "drown them faster."

[gojira]

Re: Champions Powers book issues...

 

So wait - you're saying that if I define my special effects as a vacuum' date=' as opposed to just suffocation, I get to safe 15 points and get a free area effect?[/quote']

 

 

More or less, yes. You and your GM decide what's best for your game and then you go do that.

 

Personally, I don't like either build. I'd probably go NND + the Hearing group flash (that was a good idea, the Powers books are nice for getting ideas) with the defense to NND being pressure support or ability to breathe in a vacuum or not needing to breathe at all. Not the same as either, but more to my taste.

 

Is Steve therefore wrong in both builds? Nope, just different tastes and preference. Plus the NND thing is really obvious so the powers book shows you some alternate ways of doing it.

[Tasha]

Re: Champions Powers book issues...

 

What it comes down to is that you can't use Champions Power or any book of pregenerated Stats, Characters, spells, equipment as the one true way, like you can with any other game system. Different GM's have different biases, experiences and likes. So, the way Steve writes stuff up in any of the books may not be the way YOUR GM would want it written up.

 

For me using Writing up a Champions power that uses the APC's drowning rules is cheese and would not be allowed. I would have the player buy the appropriate damage powers (NND, and Hearing darkness) as a constant AOE. There are other ways of writing it up that would be just as valid and allowed in my campaigns. Funny thing is that doing the same power as a Fantasy Hero spell, I might allow the Change Environment and Drowning. Though like always I would tell you that if it was too powerful during play, I would require a rewrite.

 

6e1 and 6e2 rules are the things that are basically unchanging and the bedrock of any hero campaign. The other books are more guidelines and suggestions as to how to do things in that particular genre.

[Vondy]

Re: Champions Powers book issues...

 

As far as I know that's not a general policy but one for the Rules Questions Board. There are other places he seems more willing to go more into design philosophy' date=' like in several sections of the books themselves. Discussion of meta-rules for example, which may come into play in this situation.[/quote']

 

Did he spell out his authorial intent in the book or not?

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Champions Powers book issues...

 

What it comes down to is that you can't use Champions Power or any book of pregenerated Stats, Characters, spells, equipment as the one true way, like you can with any other game system. Different GM's have different biases, experiences and likes. So, the way Steve writes stuff up in any of the books may not be the way YOUR GM would want it written up.

 

For me using Writing up a Champions power that uses the APC's drowning rules is cheese and would not be allowed. I would have the player buy the appropriate damage powers (NND, and Hearing darkness) as a constant AOE. There are other ways of writing it up that would be just as valid and allowed in my campaigns. Funny thing is that doing the same power as a Fantasy Hero spell, I might allow the Change Environment and Drowning. Though like always I would tell you that if it was too powerful during play, I would require a rewrite.

 

6e1 and 6e2 rules are the things that are basically unchanging and the bedrock of any hero campaign. The other books are more guidelines and suggestions as to how to do things in that particular genre.

 

Yes. Repped.

 

I don't think the Change Environment write-up would work for me if it was my game. I really don't see changing one level of temperature as creating a vacuum. I would say that you would have to buy sufficient levels to take the air pressure from sea level or whatever to a vacuum. What each level would represent would have to be thought about. In the end, just buy the appropriate attack powers and call it a day.

 

I would use the APG drowning rules when they made sense. Probaly in a heroic game, or in a situation in a supers game where someone is drowning due to the enviroment and not an attack. Now, to be consistent, if the player said at character creation, "He/she makes people drown or suffocate", I would then say that we should model the power to match the environmental effect as closely as possible.

 

I always had that problem in 5th Ed. with Bearhug from Ultimate Brick, Choke Hold in Martial Arts, and Suffocation in Environmental Effects. I haven't gotten far enough into 6th Ed. to know if that was addressed, but it was never the end of the world in any event.

[GAZZA]

Re: Champions Powers book issues...

 

The Requires a Roll limitation appears to be the source of much confusion in 6e. Moving ahead to Chaos and Entropy Powers, we have Chaotic Blast and Chaotic Destruction both on pp51 (a Blast and an RKA, basically). Both of them have an "Unreliable" option that gives a 13- activation roll for -1/2.

 

Now, I freely admit that I may be misreading something in 6e1pp389. But the only way to make 13- a -1/2, as far as I can see, is as follows:

11- base (-1/2)

13- (1/2 less)

Must be made each Phase/use (-1/2)

 

For a total of -1/2. Except that on 6e1pp390-391, we see that Instant powers can't take the "roll each phase" bit, so in the final analysis this is surely only a -1/4 limitation. Since -1/4 is the minimum, you might as well bump that to a 14- activation instead. Alternatively if you want the -1/2, it has to go down to an 11- activation. Is this correct, or are you allowed to take the extra -1/2 on instant powers despite the text on 6e1pp390-391?

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Champions Powers book issues...

 

For a total of -1/2. Except that on 6e1pp390-391' date=' we see that Instant powers can't take the "roll each phase" bit, so in the final analysis this is surely only a -1/4 limitation. Since -1/4 is the minimum, you might as well bump that to a 14- activation instead. Alternatively if you want the -1/2, it has to go down to an 11- activation. Is this correct, or are you allowed to take the extra -1/2 on instant powers despite the text on 6e1pp390-391?[/quote']

 

I would imagine it's probably a typo in Champions Powers.

[GAZZA]

Re: Champions Powers book issues...

 

Here's another observation. Judging by the number of times a Deflection power has a description similar to "To protect himself", it looks likely that someone keeps forgetting that you don't actually need Deflection to do that anymore. For example, Heavy Missiles (pp86) uses it with the description that the missiles "... aimed at him ... fall to the ground before they strike him"; Dimensional Point Defence says that the character can "... keep them from striking him."

 

I'm not wrong about this, am I? As I understand it, in 6e you can block ranged attacks aimed at you without any specific power. (Yes, it says that some GMs might require you to have a shield or something, but I'm assuming that most superheroes are going to be able to do that innately - after all, many of them are stronger than shield materials). Deflection is just if you want to block ranged attacks against someone else now, right?