Infrared Perception (Hearing Group)

[BobGreenwade]

As idle reading, I've been going through The Physics of Superheroes by James Kakalios. For the most part it's a fun and informative read, looking at real-world physics as illustrated by comic book superheroes.

 

Then, not quite halfway through, at the end of a discussion on the Three Laws of Thermodynamics using the Silver Age Atom as an illustration, I found this paragraph:

 

One doesn't have to be as small as the Atom to directly experience Brownian motion. The random collisions of the air on our eardrums produce deflections that are just at the limit of our hearing. Sit in a soundproof room for about thirty minutes and your hearing improves (just as your eyes' sensitivity to stray light increases when you've acclimated to a darkened room) until you'll be able to detect the deflection of your eardrums by the motion of the atoms. It is possible in a very quiet room to hear the background noise emanating from the entropy of the air, in essence to hear the temperature of the room. Super-hearing -- it's not just for Kryptonians anymore!

 

Hearing the temperature of the room? There's an interesting idea. It's a power that I think could be given to any character with super-sensitive hearing (superheroic types obviously, but aliens in a sci-fi setting could have the ability as well, as could certain impressive pulp heroes and kung fu mystics).

 

As suggested by the thread title, I think the best way to model this would be with Infrared Perception in the Hearing Sense Group.

 

Any other thoughts? (Not just game mechanics, but general applications.)

[ghost-angel]

Re: Infrared Perception (Hearing Group)

 

Like a lot of things perceiving the changes in objects is as or more important the perceiving the objects themselves. Infrared is a frequency after all, which means the proper equipment can detect changes in an area, an IR Listener could detect when warm bodies enter a room and transmit said data to someone: Infrared Perception (Hearing Group); Affected as Radio as well as Hearing Groups; Ranged; Discriminatory (add Analyze to detect specific or minute changes).

 

It's a neat idea. Possibly really useful in a modern Spy Hero campaign from a gaming perspective.

[Lucius]

Re: Infrared Perception (Hearing Group)

 

And the ability to feel the temperature would be Infrared Perception, Touch Group.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary asks if it's getting chilly in here

[Sean Waters]

Re: Infrared Perception (Hearing Group)

 

You can certainly do it in Hero - you can detect the mass of a distant object by smell if you want to build that - but the practical problem with detectig heat with your eardrums is that they are inside your head, which will protect them from temperature changes.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Infrared Perception (Hearing Group)

 

You can certainly do it in Hero - you can detect the mass of a distant object by smell if you want to build that - but the practical problem with detectig heat with your eardrums is that they are inside your head' date=' which will protect them from temperature changes.[/quote']

 

not particularly - Bob's OP noted that in a soundproofed room your ears acclimate to the lack of background noise. I would imagine you could detect temperature changes as particles accelerate and bounce off your eardrum more frequently. After all - that's what hearing is, air bouncing off your eardrums.

 

Besides, doesn't have to be a human ear, it can be an electronic one. Or, a Super Ear - in which case all of your "real world" arguments just go away. Because it's Superhuman.

[Matt Holck]

Re: Infrared Perception (Hearing Group)

 

hearing detects vibrational changes in air pressure

 

hearing is keyed to vibrations that resonate different length fibers in the cochlea

the ear hears vibrations

not the random rhythm less crashes of random air molecules crashing into the drum

[Sean Waters]

Re: Infrared Perception (Hearing Group)

 

not particularly - Bob's OP noted that in a soundproofed room your ears acclimate to the lack of background noise. I would imagine you could detect temperature changes as particles accelerate and bounce off your eardrum more frequently. After all - that's what hearing is, air bouncing off your eardrums.

 

Besides, doesn't have to be a human ear, it can be an electronic one. Or, a Super Ear - in which case all of your "real world" arguments just go away. Because it's Superhuman.

 

As I noted you can do anything you like mechanically, but the point of the thread was justifying a power with a real world explanation. Even if it is not a human ear, assuming it is attached to a character, and even if the character does not generate their own heat (which is extremely unlikely, if we are painting a patina of 'reality' over this) and provides no insulation then, at best, you can 'hear the temperature' of the particles that impact the ear drum, allowing you to hear the temperature of the air you are in contact with. Assuming an absolutely homogenous temperature elsewhere in the room, you know the temperature 'over there', but otherwise you don't.

 

If someone wanted to be able to detect temperature, and use the simulated sesne group with that, would I have a problem?

 

No.

 

If someone wanted to argue that it could actually work in practice for any useful purpose, would I agree?

 

Also no.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Infrared Perception (Hearing Group)

 

I could certainly see someone building Detect Temperature as a Hearing sense, so they wouldn't need a thermometer. But I already have that power, albeit with Touch, which allows me to determine I need a jacket on a cold day or if one of my kids has a fever (okay, not super refined, but you get my drift, which is not in this case Brownian).

 

Personally I think it is cool that humans could perceive Brownian motion with hearing, but I confess I little practical application for it. If I have a hero with such acute hearing that he can tell that a warm body is approaching, I think it will be because of the rustle of air as the body disrupts the atmosphere more than the heat of the body that will be heard, Passive Sonar as it were.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Infrared Perception (Hearing Group)

 

Another way to look at this is how many reptiles "taste the air" instead of smelling it. You could "hear" color by a similar function; a radio detector that "listens" to the frequency of light. Radio, Hearing, and Sight aren't all that different, really - all three are picking up then translating a wavelength. And then smell and taste are nearly identical, analyzing the chemical composition of the air or object or substance.

 

This is what the "Sense affected as another Sense / Sense Group" modifiers are all about.

[MyChampionsHero]

Re: Infrared Perception (Hearing Group)

 

Hearing Thormo Molecules!

though the possibilities is there, do you really want to apply it to a character? i mean:

 

"OUCH !!! *covers hands over ears as they start to bleed* that volcano just hurt me bad!!!"

 

and don't even want to think about getting near a Nuclear Reactor, or how about going down the streets of New York with all the hot over heating cars in traffic rushes and all the people walking crowded beside you?

 

not tring to be overly negative, but do you really want to apply that to a character?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Infrared Perception (Hearing Group)

 

The real world scenario? Bulls**t. You'd hear your own breathing and imagine phantom sounds far before you'd be able to hear variances due to temperature variation/brownian noise. Our built-in perceptive equipment's own noise is great enough; I'd be quite willing to place a wager that it is higher than that of the natural background noise.

 

As for power builds and comic book/rubber physics? Sure, why not?

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Infrared Perception (Hearing Group)

 

It's an interesting idea, but I have a little bit of trouble with power constructions that mix sense groups in bizarre ways. "Infrared Hearing" sounds like rules lawyer's dream. (Or a bad pun on infra-red herring....)

 

Not saying I wouldn't allow this power, but I'd suggest Detect Brownian Motion with the Analyze adder.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Infrared Perception (Hearing Group)

 

hearing detects vibrational changes in air pressure

 

hearing is keyed to vibrations that resonate different length fibers in the cochlea

the ear hears vibrations

not the random rhythm less crashes of random air molecules crashing into the drum

 

As I noted you can do anything you like mechanically, but the point of the thread was justifying a power with a real world explanation. Even if it is not a human ear, assuming it is attached to a character, and even if the character does not generate their own heat (which is extremely unlikely, if we are painting a patina of 'reality' over this) and provides no insulation then, at best, you can 'hear the temperature' of the particles that impact the ear drum, allowing you to hear the temperature of the air you are in contact with. Assuming an absolutely homogenous temperature elsewhere in the room, you know the temperature 'over there', but otherwise you don't.

 

If someone wanted to be able to detect temperature, and use the simulated sesne group with that, would I have a problem?

 

No.

 

If someone wanted to argue that it could actually work in practice for any useful purpose, would I agree?

 

Also no.

 

Hearing Thormo Molecules!

though the possibilities is there, do you really want to apply it to a character? i mean:

 

"OUCH !!! *covers hands over ears as they start to bleed* that volcano just hurt me bad!!!"

 

and don't even want to think about getting near a Nuclear Reactor, or how about going down the streets of New York with all the hot over heating cars in traffic rushes and all the people walking crowded beside you?

 

not tring to be overly negative, but do you really want to apply that to a character?

 

The real world scenario? Bulls**t. You'd hear your own breathing and imagine phantom sounds far before you'd be able to hear variances due to temperature variation/brownian noise. Our built-in perceptive equipment's own noise is great enough; I'd be quite willing to place a wager that it is higher than that of the natural background noise.

 

As for power builds and comic book/rubber physics? Sure, why not?

Prof. Kakalios has a PhD in physics, and teaches at the University of Minnesota. I'd say he's qualified to know what he's talking about. At least, the editors at Gotham Books thought so.

 

I'm not able to test his statement myself, as I have chronic tinnitus, but a quick Web search does show that the average volume threshold of human hearing is indeed about 5-10 dB above the sound of Brownian motion (given as -23 dB).

 

But that's not the point. The point of the thread, despite Sean's assertion to the contrary, was finding an interesting statement and turning it into a mechanical power.

 

Admittedly, Infrared Hearing would have limited utility, since (as Ockham's Spoon pointed out) one could more easily sense the ambient temperature by Touch. But if one also has special abilities with the Hearing Sense Group -- like, say, Tracking -- then one could apply such abilities to this Power, but not to the Touch-based Sense.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Infrared Perception (Hearing Group)

 

Admittedly' date=' Infrared Hearing would have limited utility, since (as Ockham's Spoon pointed out) one could more easily sense the ambient temperature by Touch. But if one also has special abilities with the Hearing Sense Group -- like, say, Tracking -- then one could apply such abilities to this Power, but not to the Touch-based Sense.[/quote']

Yeah. Hmm. Well, I guess I could imagine hearing hot things (and maybe cold things, to make it interesting) as loud noises. It would certainly be an interesting challenge for the GM. I suppose cold could sound like a chill, blowing wind and hot could sound like a roaring fire or sizzling oil....

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Infrared Perception (Hearing Group)

 

Yeah. Hmm. Well' date=' I guess I could imagine hearing hot things (and maybe cold things, to make it interesting) as loud noises. It would certainly be an interesting challenge for the GM. I suppose cold could sound like a chill, blowing wind and hot could sound like a roaring fire or sizzling oil....[/quote']It's not so much volume, as pitch. If you've ever listened to two different white-noise generators, you may have noticed that they have two different apparent pitches even though white noise technically has no specific pitch. The sound of Brownian motion would (I'm assuming here) have a white-noise sound. A warmer room would have a higher pitch than a cooler room.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Infrared Perception (Hearing Group)

 

It's not so much volume' date=' as pitch. If you've ever listened to two different white-noise generators, you may have noticed that they have two different apparent pitches even though white noise technically has no specific pitch. The sound of Brownian motion would (I'm assuming here) have a white-noise sound. A warmer room would have a higher pitch than a cooler room.[/quote']

Yeah, sure. That too. It doesn't have to be realistic in any way; just a flavorful, imaginative, and dramatic rendition.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Infrared Perception (Hearing Group)

 

Prof. Kakalios has a PhD in physics, and teaches at the University of Minnesota. I'd say he's qualified to know what he's talking about. At least, the editors at Gotham Books thought so.

 

I'm not able to test his statement myself, as I have chronic tinnitus, but a quick Web search does show that the average volume threshold of human hearing is indeed about 5-10 dB above the sound of Brownian motion (given as -23 dB).

 

But that's not the point. The point of the thread, despite Sean's assertion to the contrary, was finding an interesting statement and turning it into a mechanical power.

 

........................

 

Despite your assertion that I asserted a contrary position to the point of the thread being that you could find a mechanical way to express an interesting idea in Hero, on the contrary, I asserted that you could easily create a mechanical solution for what is being suggested but I thought that there were practical problems , and you had asked for comments on application.

 

Assert, assert. Stop it,Sean.

 

I don't doubt that Brownian motion can be 'heard' - it clearly exerts fluctuating pressure: the problem as a number of posters have pointed out is that hearing does not detect a sound at a distance, it detects the changes in pressure at your eardrum when the sound wave arrives and your brain works out where the sound came from by triangulation. No sesnse is truly ranged - at least no passive sense - you detect things that hit you. The question is therefore 'can the sound of Brownian motion 'over there' be transmitted to 'over here'?'

 

Brownian motion as a way of measuring heat is fine - at the detector. It will create a 'white noise' - but other, more distant 'white noise' won't be able to get here because of interference. I don't think with something like that you could even isolate a sound at a distance using some form of parabolic hearing - I come back to suggesting that you could only detect heat by Brownian motion movement at the detector.

 

Even if that is not the case, then any movement in the air will cause problems, overshadowing the tiny sound Brownian motion makes: it would be like trying to listen to a crystal radio inside the speaker stacks at a Metallica concert.

 

Other problems would include the fact that air density and composition would affect the perceived temperature - if there is a lot of helium in the atmosphere,for example, the Brownian motion will be more rapid as helium is lighter, giving a higher pitched sound and making the area seem hotter than it is.

 

None of that matters - it is a superhero game, and you can do what you like, based on an idea or extrapolation of an existing idea, but, if you want to play it as a rubberscience realistic power, then all the problems mentioned and more will be encountered. If you just want to play it 'straight' as a Hero mechanical construct, then you can hear the temperature here, there and anywhere you can hear, and you don't need to worry about whether it would work in practice any more than you need to worry if your team mate can actually teleport.

[torchwolf]

Re: Infrared Perception (Hearing Group)

 

Even if that is not the case' date=' then any movement in the air will cause problems, overshadowing the tiny sound Brownian motion makes: it would be like trying to listen to a crystal radio inside the speaker stacks at a Metallica concert.[/quote']

You could of course by using some extra application of rubber-science propose that the reception of specific sound frequencies of Brownian motion vibrations in the atmosphere can be selectively amplified - the principle for detecting those vibrations would be similar enough to a sonic motion detector.

(on a related note I suppose such a motion detector can be tricked into falsely registering a target moving in a specific direction by changing the heat emission of its target, applying the same notion behind using a Brownian motion detector to sensing temperatures)

 

Other problems would include the fact that air density and composition would affect the perceived temperature - if there is a lot of helium in the atmosphere' date='for example, the Brownian motion will be more rapid as helium is lighter, giving a higher pitched sound and making the area seem hotter than it is.[/quote']

Yes, gaseous effects and multiple moving heat sources in particular would make things tricky - not to mention rain and other condensation effects.

 

None of that matters - it is a superhero game' date=' and you can do what you like, based on an idea or extrapolation of an existing idea, but, if you want to play it as a rubberscience realistic power, then all the problems mentioned and more will be encountered. If you just want to play it 'straight' as a Hero mechanical construct, then you can hear the temperature here, there and anywhere you can hear, and you don't need to worry about whether it would work in practice any more than you need to worry if your team mate can actually teleport.[/quote']

Yes... does your team mate actually teleport?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prestige_(film)

[Sean Waters]

Re: Infrared Perception (Hearing Group)

 

Aye, rubber science is a wonderful thing.zzzzzzzzzz Sorry, that was the kitten typing.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Infrared Perception (Hearing Group)

 

Aye' date=' rubber science is a wonderful thing.zzzzzzzzzz Sorry, that was the kitten typing.[/quote']

Your kitten likes rubber science?! Dude! Ship me his/her offspring in a couple years!

[MyChampionsHero]

Re: Infrared Perception (Hearing Group)

 

Come-on now, the Comic-book world is about having abilities that can be imaginatively a possibility, but also remember,

if your going to apply a sense to hearing Thormo waves, then you would also have the limitation to being deaf in cold areas/regions.

i myself as a GM would not allow this as a ability with out a firm concept for it to be applied to a character, and i would also instruct the player of the limitations of how it would effect his character in cold environments.

 

***Remember that even though a molecule might be heated up at the source point, by the time it goes any length of distance, that molecule would have cooled off enough to be the same temperature as the environment when it reaches your ear drums.***

[ghost-angel]

Re: Infrared Perception (Hearing Group)

 

Infrared is part of the electro-magnetic spectrum, it's not "heat" - so cold doesn't get rid of it. That's just part of the False Color of IR Imaging based on frequency emission. Cold objects still have IR Resonance. "heat radiation" is a very poor term for the IR Spectrum. They are not "thermo waves" whatever those are.

 

IR emits specific vibrational resonance that one can theoretically hear - and they would be unique to that band of the spectrum, and if you're 'ear' is good enough can be used to determine atomic composition based on how the atoms are resonating.

 

AND it should be pointed out several bands of the IR Spectrum are used for wireless communication, there are 7 Telecommunications Standards located in the IR Band. You could use parts of the IR Band in short range audio transmissions, all you need at that point is a decoder to turn IR Data in to Audio.

 

The answer is very simple: It is possible to Hear the Infrared Spectrum quite easily, just doubtful your human ears can do it, but it's theoretically possible. Because IR is not "heat" is just another chunk of the spectrum. Shoved between microwave and visible light.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Infrared Perception (Hearing Group)

 

I'd also like to point out that the portion of the IR Band we use for thermal imaging is the middle (Mid-Range IR) of the IR portion of the Spectrum, and not even a significant portion of that band. Most of the IR Band sits in the portion designated as Far-IR.

[MyChampionsHero]

Re: Infrared Perception (Hearing Group)

 

Infrared is part of the electro-magnetic spectrum, it's not "heat" - so cold doesn't get rid of it. That's just part of the False Color of IR Imaging based on frequency emission. Cold objects still have IR Resonance. "heat radiation" is a very poor term for the IR Spectrum. They are not "thermo waves" whatever those are.

 

IR emits specific vibrational resonance that one can theoretically hear - and they would be unique to that band of the spectrum, and if you're 'ear' is good enough can be used to determine atomic composition based on how the atoms are resonating.

 

AND it should be pointed out several bands of the IR Spectrum are used for wireless communication, there are 7 Telecommunications Standards located in the IR Band. You could use parts of the IR Band in short range audio transmissions, all you need at that point is a decoder to turn IR Data in to Audio.

 

The answer is very simple: It is possible to Hear the Infrared Spectrum quite easily, just doubtful your human ears can do it, but it's theoretically possible. Because IR is not "heat" is just another chunk of the spectrum. Shoved between microwave and visible light.

I'd also like to point out that the portion of the IR Band we use for thermal imaging is the middle (Mid-Range IR) of the IR portion of the Spectrum, and not even a significant portion of that band. Most of the IR Band sits in the portion designated as Far-IR.

the tread is about Brownian motion, the bombardment of the thermo molecules on the human hear drum, your comments is from the idea that the ability is a "active" power/sense, but that is not what Brownian motion is suggesting, the tread is suggesting the bombardment of the thermo molecules on the human ear would be a "passive" sense, and that means the molecules activates your senses themselves, that would mean that they travel from the source of heat, across distance, to reach your ear drum for you/(or object) to perceive.

Infrared is part of the electro-magnetic spectrum, it's not "heat" - so cold doesn't get rid of it. That's just part of the False Color of IR Imaging based on frequency emission. Cold objects still have IR Resonance. "heat radiation" is a very poor term for the IR Spectrum. They are not "thermo waves" whatever those are.

in Brownian motion it is referring to molecules from heat sources, so in this tread it is not talking about IR as in a electro-mag view point, but the actual speeding up and expansion of molecules (thermo waves) from the source and branching out, again that would be a passive perception, the electro-mag that you are referring to is a active perception, where the device searches out for the IR itself. like to point out that this is a comic-book world and i have never seen Magneto having power to cool off heat from the human body or any other source.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Infrared Perception (Hearing Group)

 

Convection currents, perhaps, but that'd be about as limited as having to rely on the wind to smell someone's scent, and would be felt a lot more readily than heard audibly. Come up with whatever realistic sounding comic-booky description suits your fancy, but don't expect it to have much basis in reality.