Anyone using 1 pt per Dex in 6E?

[TheSouljourner]

I'm working on starting a new (heroic) campaign, my first in 6E, and I'm considering changing Dex to be 1 point per point. There just doesn't seem to be enough of a reason for it to cost twice as much as everything else. Yes, it also controls initiative, but, strength also controls HTH damage and lift, con controls stunning, etc etc.

 

(I am also changing initiative so it's a dex roll rather than straight comparison, so that mitigates its value some a well)

 

Just curious if anyone else is making this conversion.

 

-Nate

[Nevenall]

Re: Anyone using 1 pt per Dex in 6E?

 

I have used 1 point per DEX from the start of 6E and it has worked just fine. I also adjusted the cost of Agility skill levels and and Lightning Reflexes.

[RexMundi]

Re: Anyone using 1 pt per Dex in 6E?

 

I tried it, didn't work well. On the other hand, considering bumping Intelligence up to Match it though for similar reasons that I want to keep Dex as more Expensive then the other stats.

 

~Rex

[TheSouljourner]

Re: Anyone using 1 pt per Dex in 6E?

 

I tried it' date=' didn't work well. On the other hand, considering bumping Intelligence up to Match it though for similar reasons that I want to keep Dex as more Expensive then the other stats.[/quote']

 

I'd love to hear why it didn't work. Did everyone just have 20?

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Re: Anyone using 1 pt per Dex in 6E?

 

I've kept it at 2 pts per DEX pt. To those who think you're not getting enough for the cost, then simply don't buy so much of it...since CV is separate from DEX...only certain builds need...or can even justify super high DEX. Even the official villain books brought down the DEX scores on many characters. Basically...in my game...no need to change as there has been no fuss over it...nor do I think there should be...

[RexMundi]

Re: Anyone using 1 pt per Dex in 6E?

 

I'd love to hear why it didn't work. Did everyone just have 20?

 

It completely blew the new Initiative curve in regards to lighting reflexes and such for 6e. Not to mention a lot of folks bring up the "Yeah it determines Initiative etc" and then comparitive things to other stats to offset their point.

 

Thing is though in HERO, Going First, and better yet, Being able to Hold an Action, is one of the most singular points of advantage in the entire game, it's the ultimate high ground. At a 1 for 1 Dex, "ninja" became the norm, and scale went out the door. Everyone went for the control of the high ground.

 

Work that into the Game Environment effecting Skills liked to Dex, such as Acrobatics, it got messy real quick even with the newbies that didn't know how to power game the system yet. For the power gamers it was a total cheese injection for them. Dex just effects to many things, and offers more advantage to be able to Use Everything else, when you want to use it, to the best advantage possible, to be a give away stat.

 

~Rex

[Vondy]

Re: Anyone using 1 pt per Dex in 6E?

 

I divided Dexterity into Agility and Reflexes at 1:1 each.

[Vondy]

Re: Anyone using 1 pt per Dex in 6E?

 

I have used 1 point per DEX from the start of 6E and it has worked just fine. I also adjusted the cost of Agility skill levels and and Lightning Reflexes.

 

To what?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Anyone using 1 pt per Dex in 6E?

 

I've not changed the cost of DEX, and don't consider it a problem at the standard cost - I'm not suggetsing that the cost is necessarily 'right' in terms of balance - but it isn't a problem at the ciurrent cost level.

 

I think that the reason that 2 points was picked it because DEX controls initiative (and, as has been pointed out, that can make a world of difference in combat) AND DEX skills, which often have a combat application. Hero tends (IMO) to be balanced for combat more than non-combat situations, and in that context, 2 point DEX makes sense. That is when you roll most dice and where the rules get most complex.

 

I've also found that changes almost inevitably have unintended consequences.

 

It has not really been a problem for me: why is 2 point DEX a problem for you?

[Escafarc]

Re: Anyone using 1 pt per Dex in 6E?

 

I've also changed it to 1 pt and haven't had any problems.

[Matt Holck]

Re: Anyone using 1 pt per Dex in 6E?

 

only one player in my group bothered to buy dexterity up in the 100 point heroic game

so the villains have initiative

I actually bought my dexterity down to 8 for the 4 extrapoints

and the privilege to declare a recovery on initiative 8 (usually after everyone has take an action that phase)

[RexMundi]

Re: Anyone using 1 pt per Dex in 6E?

 

only one player in my group bothered to buy dexterity up in the 100 point heroic game

so the villains have initiative

I actually bought my dexterity down to 8 for the 4 extrapoints

and the privilege to declare a recovery on initiative 8 (usually after everyone has take an action that phase)

 

I've noted that to a few of my players actually but it's nice to see an example of the Dex cost going the other direction. Still considering bumping Intelligence up to 2, but I've played with it at 1 to 1 for so long that paying more for Intelligence feels alien, heh.

 

Did toy around with splitting Dex but that tended to irk a lot of different types of players that were all looking at it now as, "What, MORE stats?!"

 

2/per works well and balances well with what it can actually present as advantages, even in the negative direction, in combat.

 

~Rex

[Vondy]

Re: Anyone using 1 pt per Dex in 6E?

 

 

Did toy around with splitting Dex but that tended to irk a lot of different types of players that were all looking at it now as, "What, MORE stats?!"

 

I parsed them out after I did away with END and combined PD and ED into "Tough" (for most purposes). So I still ended up with one less.

[RexMundi]

Re: Anyone using 1 pt per Dex in 6E?

 

I could see that working. For my game though I need a definitive difference between PD and ED so, making them one stat won't work for me. Still I can see how that works. One thing about HERO. Plug and Play as needed.

 

~Rex

[Vondy]

Re: Anyone using 1 pt per Dex in 6E?

 

I could see that working. For my game though I need a definitive difference between PD and ED so, making them one stat won't work for me. Still I can see how that works. One thing about HERO. Plug and Play as needed.

 

~Rex

 

I still use PD/ED separately where needed. But for the heroic games I run, characters generally don't need both.

[Nevenall]

Re: Anyone using 1 pt per Dex in 6E?

 

To what?

 

Agility Skill Levels become the same as any other broad category 4 pts per +1

Lightning Reflexes is a little tricky I tried to recalculate the cost as best I could. I adjusted the DEX to +2, +3, +4, +5, +6 but honestly I would consider leaving lightning reflexes as it is, except perhaps for the all actions category.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Anyone using 1 pt per Dex in 6E?

 

So...+5 INT and +5 DEX = 15 points and gives you +1 with Intellect and Agility skills and +5 'Initiative'

 

You could buy a 10 point overall skill level and +5 Lightning Reflexes for the same cost. The only difference is that you could not use the skill level for an Intellect and an Agility skill at the same time, but then you could use the Skill Level for ANY skill that is not a combat skill.

 

Not quite sure what point that makes, other than reducing DEX cost does have knock on effects: skill levels would be less attractive if characteristics cost less, and, personally, I like skill levels. Mind you, I'd like to see a skill system as detailed and versatile as the combat system. This probably is not the place for that discussion though...

[RexMundi]

Re: Anyone using 1 pt per Dex in 6E?

 

Not only that, but Increasing each skill becomes secondary to just raising the stat. "Why not just raise the stat instead of skills and skill levels?" becomes the main question then. World of Ninja's approacheth.

 

~Rex

[Sean Waters]

Re: Anyone using 1 pt per Dex in 6E?

 

Certainly everything changes: even if you are not running characteristic maxima, there comes a point of diminishing returns: 20 DEX gets you a +2 on skill rolls. You probably don't need much more than that to be very good at agility skills, unless you have a GM who likes to kick out penalties.

 

Yeah - NinjaWorld

[RexMundi]

Re: Anyone using 1 pt per Dex in 6E?

 

Yep, and to newer folks or munchkins, what they see, is that +2 applying to ALL the skills associated with that stat, hence, more bang for their buck they think, if they just Ninja out.

 

~Rex

[Nevenall]

Re: Anyone using 1 pt per Dex in 6E?

 

Yep, and to newer folks or munchkins, what they see, is that +2 applying to ALL the skills associated with that stat, hence, more bang for their buck they think, if they just Ninja out.

 

~Rex

 

Well, at some point to you have to invoke 6E1 p. 9. But I can say that because I'm lucky to have the group I have.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Anyone using 1 pt per Dex in 6E?

 

I find that DEX being priced double INT and PRE is not appropriate. We've been running a 6e Champions game with DEX priced at 1, and the result seems OK. However, I'm not convinced that doubling the cost of INT and PRE would not be more appropriate.

 

Maybe INT and PRE skill levels would actually merit consideration under that model. At 4 points to add 1 to any one skill vs 5 points to add 1 to all of them, plus get PER rolls or PRE attacks, that's a pretty valuable 1 point extra expenditure. Wish I could put a +1/4 advantage on some other abilities to get "also adds to PRE attacks and defense" or "also boosts PER rolls".

 

I find the defenders of 2 point DEX overvalue the benefit of initiative. I can still abort, so my 1 DEX character can Abort to Dodge in phase 12, and keep getting the bonus to 1 DEX in my next phase, after which many of the other combatants will have used their phase (and so I can do what I want, with no fear of the target aborting). Shortly thereafter, he will have the option of aborting once again.

 

It's nice to go first, but it's nowhere near the game breaker many suggest, at least not in the games I've played. So everyone else go ahead and spend 20 points to have a 20 DEX. I can think of lots of other purchases for 20 (or 38, at 1 DEX) extra points that will offset you going first. What about +2 SPD - that will probably get me my next action before yours anyway. An extra 10/10 defenses will go a long way to blunting the advantage of your first strike. An extra 4 DC's will go a long way to ensuring you don't get a second action.

 

Of course, if two characters are otherwise identical, first strike becomes more of an advantage, but we're choosing where to spend our points, so the characters should each have 20 points to spend.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Anyone using 1 pt per Dex in 6E?

 

So...+5 INT and +5 DEX = 15 points and gives you +1 with Intellect and Agility skills and +5 'Initiative'

 

You could buy a 10 point overall skill level and +5 Lightning Reflexes for the same cost. The only difference is that you could not use the skill level for an Intellect and an Agility skill at the same time, but then you could use the Skill Level for ANY skill that is not a combat skill.

 

Those stats also allow your KS: Chemistry skill to be enhanced while it's used as a complementary skill for your SS: Pharmacology. Adding to all skills, rather than just one, is very useful if you may want to use more than one skill in a phase. Maybe you want to Climb Stealthily, or have a bonus to Breakfall if that Climbing bonus isn't quite enough.

 

I believe the skill levels are overpriced compared to characteristics. Maybe a level that adds to all skill rolls at the same time might justify getting only a 1 point discount from buying up the characteristic, but I'm not convinced of that either.

 

And, before I hear the chorus of "Normal Characteristic Maxima", let's remember than NCM is an optional rule only. It would seem reasonable to enhance the cost of skill levels above some benchmark if NCM is in play anyway.

 

Maybe we should eliminate skill levels entirely and build them as Talents based on limited characteristics.

[TheSouljourner]

Re: Anyone using 1 pt per Dex in 6E?

 

Thanks for all your insights.

 

I almost feel like the 6 base stats should be 2 points each, but I'm sure everyone would be up in arms about that. If 1 point each means everyone just takes 20 (in heroic campaigns) or otherwise has unreasonably high stats, it means the stats are priced too cheaply.

[dmjalund]

Re: Anyone using 1 pt per Dex in 6E?

 

Heres 1 vote for reinstituting NCM as default for Heroic Campaigns