Rescue/Kidnap Teleport

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Rescue/Kidnap Teleport

 

Usable Simultaneously would allow you to teleport with someone. Its the build I use for teleporters with this power. Its really not that complex.

 

It does? My reading of Usable Simultaneously is that you both lend the power to someone else, and retain its use for yourself; the other character must still activate the power with his own actions, his own Endurance, and so forth. So if he's unconscious, he isn't going anywhere.

[GAZZA]

Re: Rescue/Kidnap Teleport

 

You know....for something that happens all the freaking time in the comics(Nightcrawler anyone?)' date=' you'd think the main rulebook would have spelled this out better.[/quote']

Well, the main rulebook is generic rather than superhero specific. And there are lots of things that work well in the comics that don't work as well in play. Something like the Champions Powers book would have been a better place for it, or maybe the ultimate speedster (if that covers teleporters).

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Rescue/Kidnap Teleport

 

don't have the Big 6th book but 5th seems to spell it out just fine for me.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Rescue/Kidnap Teleport

 

Well' date=' the main rulebook is generic rather than superhero specific. And there are lots of things that work well in the comics that don't work as well in play. Something like the Champions Powers book would have been a better place for it, or maybe the ultimate speedster (if that covers teleporters).[/quote']

 

A lot of people would agree that just the opposite is true. The game began as very superhero centric and has become more generic over time.

 

A lot of folks on this thread appear to be blurring the distinction between Teleportation the HERO Power and teleportation the special effect.

Teleportation the power is primarily about allowing a character to move themselves from place to place (just like Running and Flight).

If I want to simulate the abilities of another X-men, Storm, I would very likely use Flight with UAA as the core of her 'telekinetic-like' wind manipulation ability that can lift objects without having to win a STR vs. STR contest like a traditional Grab with STR (Telekinetic or otherwise) requires.

 

Similarly, Nightcrawler's ability to teleport others he is in contact with to the same destination that he himself travels to is still a separate ability from his own personal Teleportation Power. It is best modeled as Teleportation with UAA.

Generous GM's can of course allow the extra mass modifier alone to allow a similar end result but then the defense against the maneuver becomes another issue for the GM to houserule as well*.

 

*Note that any application of UAA to a power requires a defense to be defined in the same manner as a 5e NND Advantaged ability requires.

[GAZZA]

Re: Rescue/Kidnap Teleport

 

A lot of people would agree that just the opposite is true. The game started began as very superhero centric and has become more generic over time.

That isn't what I said. I said the main 6e rulebook is generic, which is a very different statement from saying that Hero is historically a generic system (the latter is not even a defensible statement, since Champions predates Hero). I don't use the system much outside of superheroes myself, but the main rulebook gives power examples that are not only superheroic in nature - which is as it should be.

 

Similarly, Nightcrawler's ability to teleport others he is in contact with to the same destination that he himself travels to is still a separate ability from his own personal Teleportation Power. It is best modeled as Teleportation with UAA.

I'm not sure I agree, but for a completely different reason.

 

I've never been happy with using UAA for anything. In my opinion it's basically a hack - the cost of being able to Teleport others (or extradimensionally move them, inflict Flight on them - whatever) isn't particularly highly correlated to the cost of being able to do that yourself, so applying an advantage to allow it to do that has never really struck me as a "correct" way to do it. (UBO is different; it is specifically UAA - what used to be called UAO - that I'm complaining about here). For very few active points you get can a Flight power UAA that will eventually put a non-flier into orbit, or some other similarly fatal occurrence (perhaps just turning it off when they're high enough to impose terminal velocity on the resulting fall).

 

Which is not to say I have any better ideas. Transform would work as a substitute, but Transform suffers from the same pricing problems (many permanent effects cost the same, even though some are worse than others, and Transform doesn't have any real way to limit how far you can teleport someone, or whatever). I suppose you could work something up that involved a sort of Grab-By-And-Throw to simulate teleporting someone, but it isn't clear how you would simulate that "being really strong" isn't always the proper defence to resist it. (You can often use Telekinesis instead of Flight UAA though).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Rescue/Kidnap Teleport

 

That isn't what I said. I said the main 6e rulebook is generic, which is a very different statement from saying that Hero is historically a generic system (the latter is not even a defensible statement, since Champions predates Hero). I don't use the system much outside of superheroes myself, but the main rulebook gives power examples that are not only superheroic in nature - which is as it should be.

 

 

I'm not sure I agree, but for a completely different reason.

 

I've never been happy with using UAA for anything. In my opinion it's basically a hack - the cost of being able to Teleport others (or extradimensionally move them, inflict Flight on them - whatever) isn't particularly highly correlated to the cost of being able to do that yourself, so applying an advantage to allow it to do that has never really struck me as a "correct" way to do it. (UBO is different; it is specifically UAA - what used to be called UAO - that I'm complaining about here). For very few active points you get can a Flight power UAA that will eventually put a non-flier into orbit, or some other similarly fatal occurrence (perhaps just turning it off when they're high enough to impose terminal velocity on the resulting fall).

 

Which is not to say I have any better ideas. Transform would work as a substitute, but Transform suffers from the same pricing problems (many permanent effects cost the same, even though some are worse than others, and Transform doesn't have any real way to limit how far you can teleport someone, or whatever). I suppose you could work something up that involved a sort of Grab-By-And-Throw to simulate teleporting someone, but it isn't clear how you would simulate that "being really strong" isn't always the proper defence to resist it. (You can often use Telekinesis instead of Flight UAA though).

 

So let's change the subject to a recent topic of other threads.

 

How to simulate gravity manipulation (increase, reversal, etc..).

Reversing gravity implies the ability move non-fliers upwards without needing to grab them. How strong the target is only matters if they can grab an anchored object somehow.

In other words, there is no normal defense to such an ability (besides being able to fly).

Flight with UAA is the way to do this. It is essentially Telekinesis NND but IIRC Steve ruled the latter illegal.

[薔薇語]

Re: Rescue/Kidnap Teleport

 

No its not. Teleportation can be used so much more creatively and is much more versitle for these purposes.

 

Teleporters also have an advantage out there that prevents them from escaping - flight doesn't. Teleporters still suffer from falling - flight doesn't. Teleporters can't cross over water without getting wet (lest they can jump long enough). Teleporters can't use their teleportation to help move objects or resist push. There are things that teleporters just can't do, that flight can. And the cost of increasing mass in correspondence to Str. can get to be quite a bit (same for No-Relative Velocity and Armor P. if you let that break "can't be escaped with teleportation, etc).

 

La Rose

[CalumX]

Re: Rescue/Kidnap Teleport

 

6E2 notes that, at the GMs option, Teleportation can be used to perform Grab Bys at no STR bonus. Talk nicely to your GM

 

If not, I'd do it like this.

 

Hold your Phase till the segment before your next Phase. Teleport in, Grab subject. Next segment, Teleport away.

 

Or define something like a Teleport, UAA, with side effect teleports you to the same place, only while grabbed - and use Multiple Attack.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Rescue/Kidnap Teleport

 

Similarly, Nightcrawler's ability to teleport others he is in contact with to the same destination that he himself travels to is still a separate ability from his own personal Teleportation Power. It is best modeled as Teleportation with UAA.

Generous GM's can of course allow the extra mass modifier alone to allow a similar end result but then the defense against the maneuver becomes another issue for the GM to houserule as

well*.

 

*Note that any application of UAA to a power requires a defense to be defined in the same manner as a 5e NND Advantaged ability requires.

 

The defense is the same as the defense against being Grabbed and flown, run, Leaped, etc., elsewhere - breaking the Grab before the Grabber can move you. In cases of a Grab-By, that means breaking free with casual STR. In the case of a standard Grab, it means breaking free before the Grabber's next phase. That's probably at least as common as many of the defenses I see suggested as "reasonably common" for an NND (or similarly defended ability).

 

Teleporters also have an advantage out there that prevents them from escaping - flight doesn't. Teleporters still suffer from falling - flight doesn't. Teleporters can't cross over water without getting wet (lest they can jump long enough). Teleporters can't use their teleportation to help move objects or resist push. There are things that teleporters just can't do' date=' that flight can. And the cost of increasing mass in correspondence to Str. can get to be quite a bit (same for No-Relative Velocity and Armor P. if you let that break "can't be escaped with teleportation, etc). [/quote']

 

6E2 notes that' date=' at the GMs option, Teleportation can be used to perform Grab Bys at no STR bonus. Talk nicely to your GM[/quote']

 

That absence of velocity damage adders has a significant impact on the value of Teleportation in combat. As well, it is tough to perform Multiple Move By's in combat.

 

How much more expensive is it to build the Nightcrawler tactic from the movies, also seen in the comics, where he teleport/attacks a number of mooks in what seems to be a single action? If I have 60 meters of Running and 20 STR, I do 8d6 damage and can attack a number of targets within my running range. If I have 60 meters of Teleportation, most GM's will rule I can't attack multiple targets by 'porting and rematerializing multiple times in a single move, and even if they accept that, they won't give me a vellocity adder, so I likely am forced to do a Multiple Attack with my STR for 4d6.

 

Teleport and Flight simply have different strengths and weaknesses. Note that, for a +1/4 advantage, you can trade off between the advantages and weaknesses (Usable as another form of movement).

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Rescue/Kidnap Teleport

 

This is actually rather bizarre. I'm never on this side of the fence so to speak. Maybe I've finally found something my group either abuses or is more probelmatically creative with but it all seems to fit perfectly to me. I still find teleportation a power that should be at least marked with a "!" and incredibly dangerous if you can teleport others.

 

I read your words but what balances out in your mind simply does not in mine. methinks no convincing will happen today so I will give the point that in your camapaigns it is so.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Rescue/Kidnap Teleport

 

The defense is the same as the defense against being Grabbed and flown' date=' run, Leaped, etc., elsewhere - breaking the Grab before the Grabber can move you. In cases of a Grab-By, that means breaking free with casual STR. In the case of a standard Grab, it means breaking free before the Grabber's next phase. That's probably at least as common as many of the defenses I see suggested as "reasonably common" for an NND (or similarly defended ability).....[/quote']

 

But IIRC Nightcrawler doesn't actually have to 'grab someone' (exert STR) to teleport them along with him. He just has to touch them (almost exactly like how Kitty Pryde can turn someone else intangible at the same time that she does herself).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Rescue/Kidnap Teleport

 

So how would Nightcrawler and Kitty Pryde's abilities function in Hero terms? Is it reasonable that the target has the time to exercise casual STR and break free from a Grab, but does not have time to shift position so an opponent is no longer touching them? Perhaps it is their Surprise Attack which results in the target being unable to avoid being carried along for the ride.

 

Certainly, if the player wants to deny the target any ability to avoid being teleported, desolidified, or moved by flight, running, etc., that should cost more.

 

A side issue, but it seems like many examples in the source material feature friendly targets who are grabbed and carried without the significant negative impact Grab imposes on both characters' combat values under the Hero System. Is "grab and carry" always the combat maneuver "Grab", or could it vary with the SFX, and require the actual maneuver only when the target is unwilling (and/or unaware)?

[dmjalund]

Re: Rescue/Kidnap Teleport

 

a touch would still be considered an attack (probably costing zero end), and one could contemplate a "Touch and Affect" maneuver

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Rescue/Kidnap Teleport

 

If I remember correctly there are some official power write-ups that require a DEX roll to represent having to touch someone. I don't recall if that was in addition to, or instead of, an attack roll though...