Rules on Hiking? [6e]

[Ragitsu]

Are there rules on hiking/marching that I missed?

[Beast]

Re: Rules on Hiking? [6e]

 

you can only go as fast as the slowest person/thing

 

might want to look at the long term end rules

[Ragitsu]

Re: Rules on Hiking? [6e]

 

How close/far from reality. are the current rates?

[Outsider]

Re: Rules on Hiking? [6e]

 

What do you consider to be reality?

[Escafarc]

Re: Rules on Hiking? [6e]

 

What do you consider to be reality?

 

Depends are you inside or outside the cave?

[Ragitsu]

Re: Rules on Hiking? [6e]

 

What do you consider to be reality?

 

Around world record rates for hiking/endurance walking/endurance jogging.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Rules on Hiking? [6e]

 

I don't believe they've changed from 5E in any significant way.

[Beast]

Re: Rules on Hiking? [6e]

 

the stories when growing up, had the california missions being about 26 miles apart

so with about 8 hrs of good sunlight at minimum you could hike from 1 mission to the next in that time

this is for small groups hiking if you looking at large groups I'd figure about 20 miles a day

[Ragitsu]

Re: Rules on Hiking? [6e]

 

I don't believe they've changed from 5E in any significant way.

 

How "realistic" were the ones in 5e, then?

 

Basically, how far can a Stat 10 human hike, in HERO, before getting too tired to move any more? Also, how far can that same human cover in a 10 hour day (not counting time for sleep, and living off the land/resting)?.

[Outsider]

Re: Rules on Hiking? [6e]

 

Long Term END rules : Take the number of END you spend per turn, divide by your REC.

Less than 1/2 : No LTE use

1/2 to less than 1 : 1 LTE used per 5 minutes

1 to less than 2 : 1 LTE used per minute

2 to less than 3 : 1 LTE used per turn

 

LTE use effectively lowers your END stat temporarily. If you have a base END of 20, and use 10 LTE, your END stat is 10. You cant use normaly recoveries to recover to above 10 until you regain the LTE used. LTE is regained at a rate of your REC per 5 hours spent resting.

 

So a normal unencumbered person running at full speed uses

1 END per phase (6" movement, or 12" with NCM = 24 meters per phase)

2 END per Turn (base human = SPD 2, 48 meters per turn = 4 meters per second = 14.4 kph = 9 mph)

2 END/4 REC = 1/2

1 LTE per 5 minutes is spent

100 minutes to run down to 0 END

100 minutes at 9 mph means a base human can run 15 miles before being exhausted.

 

Alternatively, a person can walk at 4" (2" NCMx2, 1/3 the rate above (3mph)) on his first phase each turn, then accelerate up to 10" (5" NCMx2) on his second phase each turn. This would make his END usage be 0 for the first phase (since 2" of movement uses no END (Running costs 1 END per 5", so 2" used rounds down to 0 END each phase) and 1 END on his second phase (5" of base movement used = 10" with NCM multiplier. HE can only go to 10" because accelleration is limited to one's full combat move per phase.) Meaning 1 END per turn divided by 4 REC = less than 1/2 = no LTE used. Overall, this makes for 12" of movement per turn, or half the running rate, or 5.25 miles per hour.

This means that, strictly within the rules, a base normal person can travel 42 miles in 8 hours or 52.5 miles in 10 hours without being fatigued at the end of it.

 

If they're willing to be down 8 LTE at the end of their day (2 sleep periods will recover that) they can travel for 40 minutes at a 9mph run, then 7 1/3 hours at a 5.25 mph walk/jog for a total of 44.5 miles in 8 hours.

 

If they travel for 10 hours a day, sleep for 10, and have 4 hours spare for cooking, eating, setting camp, etc, then they go 9 more miles a day, for a total of 55 miles a day.

 

And this is all a 20 END, 4 REC base normal. Increasing their REC to 5 makes a large difference, as they can now use 2 END per turn and remain in the 'no LTE used' portion of the LTE rules. Basically, they can run all day at 9 mph, covering 72 miles in 8 hours, or 90 miles in 10 hours. And not be fatigued at all at the end of it.

 

If you look at the 'heroic' end of the scale, and give a person 9 REC, 4 SPD and 7" of running, they can use 1 END every phase without loseing LTE. This works out to 56" per turn = 112 meters per 12 seconds = 21 miles per hour = 168 miles in an 8 hour run, or 210 miles in a 10 hour run. Again, all without getting tired (no LTE used).

 

 

Basically, while the LTE rules may or may not work for long periods of fighting (where END use per turn is higher) or for Supers, its not hoirribly 'realistic' when it comes to normals and travelling.

 

On the other hand, Fantasy Hero 5e circumvents this by having its own distance travel system that states distances per day by mode of travel, with modifiers for terrain, weather, and so on.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Rules on Hiking? [6e]

 

Frankly, it doesn't bother me that applying Hero's combat rules to long distance hiking comes up with strange results. Long distance hiking isn't all that cinematic. With respect to the example heroic character, I note the following:

 

(a) 9 REC seems pretty high and 4 SPD is top of the line for heroic characters. I suspect someone in the group will have lower stats.

 

( It has been noted in previous threads that SPD applies only in combat. If you restrict long distance travel to a 2 SPD, we cut the distance in half.

 

© I'd be inclined to question the theory that an individual runs for 8 hours straight. I don't consider "maximum combat speed" to be a leisurely stroll, or even a steady march

 

If we assume they will travel at a rate that does not result in loss of LTE, that looks to be about 3 MPH, or 24 miles in an 8 hour day. That does not seem like an unreasonable base for long distance travel. Where dies Fantasy Hero start characters under normal travel conditions?

 

Overall, this appears to be an area where the rule of "apply common and dramatic sense" should be applied.

[Outsider]

Re: Rules on Hiking? [6e]

 

Cripes. Misstroked a key and lost a rather legthy response.

 

The essence of it, without the numbers :

 

Yes, 9 REC/4 SPD is high end. But it is still within the realm of the 'normal'.

 

Setting SPD to 2 for distance travel is a good idea. Not only does it slow down combat monsters, but it speeds up ditherers.

 

It doesn't really solve the problem though. Just makes it less extreme. Basically, to determine maximum sustainable (ie no LTE use) rate of movement, a character can use END per turn up to just shy of half his REC. This means using up to 2" (4" with NCM) in an individual phase if no end expenditure is desired, or up to 7" (14" NCM) for a cost of 1 END per phase, or up to 10" (20") for a cost of 2 END per phase.

 

0-2 REC (Can use no END/Turn without incurring LTE loss)

Maximum travel (4"+4") = 24 miles per 8 hour march.

 

3-4 REC (Can use 1 END/Turn)

Maximum travel = (4"+10") = 42 miles per 8 hour march (with 6" running) Add 3 miles per 1" of Running above 6"

 

5-6 REC (Can use 2 END/Turn)

Maximum travel = (12"+12") = 72 miles per 8 hour march (with 6" running) Add 12 miles per day if running is 7" or more.

 

7-8 REC (Can use 3 END/Turn)

Maximum travel = (14"+16") = 90 miles per 8 hour march (with 8 " running) Add 6 miles per day per inch of running over 8"

 

9-10 REC (can use 4 END/Turn)

Maximum travel = (16"+16") = 96 miles per 8 hour march (with 8" running) add 12 miles per day per inch over 8"

 

 

So even at SPD 2, a character with a modest 5 REC (1 over normal) can travel at 3 times the base rate without getting tired.

 

This does represent him moving at his maximum rate the whole time. It isnt a steady march or a leisurely stroll, but the long term END cost is the same as those. Unrealistic, but also well within the rules. Heck, I don't consider it very realistic that one can walk even 24 miles without being at least somewhat fatigued at the end of it, but that's how the rules work for even a spd 2, 6" run base normal toddling along using only 1/3 of his Running.

 

The Fantasy Hero 5e travel rules set overland movement by a small (16 or less) number of unencumbered humans on a road at 5 kph, which works out to 25 miles per 8 hour day. Unfortunately, I think that may be a typo, as they set the rate across typical (non-road) terrain at 5.5 kph. They probably meant 6 kph for the road rate (the mounted road rate is .5 kph better than the mounted 'typical' non-road rate) which would work out to about 30 miles per day.

 

Setting everyone to the base rate solves this, but adds the problem of determining how to resolve any sort or race or chase situation. Just applying 'common and dramatic sense' can be pretty unsatisfying for players used to a mechanics heavy system like HERO. Dramatic sense, especially, often sounds like 'Railroad Tracks'. "You aren't going to catch up to (or outrun) your opponents, regardless of your relative relevant stats, because I didnt (or did) prepare for that encounter to take place."

[Ragitsu]

Re: Rules on Hiking? [6e]

 

Frankly' date=' it doesn't bother me that applying Hero's combat rules to long distance hiking comes up with strange results. [b'] Long distance hiking isn't all that cinematic[/b].

 

The Last of the Mohicans?

Lord of the Rings?

Tears of the Sun?

Blood Diamond?

 

And those are just the movie examples I can think of, where a long hiking scene/long distance travel is an integral part of the story.

 

Overall' date=' this appears to be an area where the rule of "apply common and dramatic sense" should be applied.[/quote']

 

Some could, and might, given their own experiences with endurance walking. Then again, not everyone has such experience, and some will want to calculate whether or not their characters will reach the city in time to warn them of an attacking army.

 

---

 

Outsider, thank you for the effort you put into your responses. I admit to not having fully read them yet, but will do so before the day's over.

 

One more question for now: as I understand, fifty to fifty-five miles in a day is quite a feat for the average (untrained) person of decent physical shape. Is this true?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Rules on Hiking? [6e]

 

The Last of the Mohicans?

Lord of the Rings?

Tears of the Sun?

Blood Diamond?

 

And those are just the movie examples I can think of, where a long hiking scene/long distance travel is an integral part of the story.

 

In which of these do you see an extensive discussion of the hike itself? The encounters along the way are typically the focus of the book, with the characters recognizing they have to keep the pace up. A brief reference to the many days of exhausting travel, rather than several chapters of each day's grueling march, tends to be the description of the actual travel.

 

Some could' date=' and might, given their own experiences with endurance walking. Then again, not everyone has such experience, and some will want to calculate whether or not their characters will reach the city in time to warn them of an attacking army.[/quote']

 

You can calculate that regardless of what system you decide to use. I don't find it overly dramatic or cinematic to watch the players pull out their calculators to determine how they can best manipulate the rules to maximize their speed. "Let's see, I can spend 3 END per turn without being overtaken by long term END, and I have a 4 SPD. My character will move 7" for 9 seconds, broken up with 3 seconds moving at 2", for the entire march. So that's 28 meters (counting NCM) x 3 + 8 meters = 92 meters per turn = 460 meters per minute = 27.6 kph sustained movement rate".

 

If we want to add in some form of strategy/rolling, we could certainly start at a base rate, then add the ability to exceed that rate in a forced march, requiring CON rolls to avoid Drains from the exertion and, at the extreme, an inability to go on.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Rules on Hiking? [6e]

 

Alternatively, a person can walk at 4" (2" NCMx2, 1/3 the rate above (3mph)) on his first phase each turn, then accelerate up to 10" (5" NCMx2) on his second phase each turn. This would make his END usage be 0 for the first phase (since 2" of movement uses no END (Running costs 1 END per 5", so 2" used rounds down to 0 END each phase) and 1 END on his second phase (5" of base movement used = 10" with NCM multiplier. HE can only go to 10" because accelleration is limited to one's full combat move per phase.) Meaning 1 END per turn divided by 4 REC = less than 1/2 = no LTE used. Overall, this makes for 12" of movement per turn, or half the running rate, or 5.25 miles per hour.

This means that, strictly within the rules, a base normal person can travel 42 miles in 8 hours or 52.5 miles in 10 hours without being fatigued at the end of it.

I don't have my book with me, but I thought using Movement Powers used at least one END. Do you happen to know where in the books to find the info about q END movement? I think I should re-read it.

[Outsider]

Re: Rules on Hiking? [6e]

 

I don't have my book with me' date=' but I thought using Movement Powers used at least one END. Do you happen to know where in the books to find the info about q END movement? I think I should re-read it.[/quote']

 

If that is the case, then the rules err in the other direction. A normal person (4 REC, 20 END, 2 SPD, 6" Running) who is using 1 END per phase loses 1 LTE per 5 minutes, and thus can only go for 1 hour 40 minutes before being entirely exhausted. At a walk, that would be 5 miles, or at a run 15 miles. Then they'd have to rest for 25 hours to recover the LTE.

 

 

PS : I don't have my book with me either.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Rules on Hiking? [6e]

 

Hmm. Interesting idea. Consider Speed as costing End for purposes of LTE use.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Rules on Hiking? [6e]

 

If that is the case, then the rules err in the other direction. A normal person (4 REC, 20 END, 2 SPD, 6" Running) who is using 1 END per phase loses 1 LTE per 5 minutes, and thus can only go for 1 hour 40 minutes before being entirely exhausted. At a walk, that would be 5 miles, or at a run 15 miles. Then they'd have to rest for 25 hours to recover the LTE.

 

 

PS : I don't have my book with me either.

Maybe it's different with Running than other Movement Powers? I thought that with Flight it took 1 END to hover even if you weren't moving, but again I don't Grok the system as well as some and may be mixed up.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Rules on Hiking? [6e]

 

If that is the case' date=' then the rules err in the other direction. A normal person (4 REC, 20 END, 2 SPD, 6" Running) who is using 1 END per phase loses 1 LTE per 5 minutes, and thus can only go for 1 hour 40 minutes before being entirely exhausted. At a walk, that would be 5 miles, or at a run 15 miles. Then they'd have to rest for 25 hours to recover the LTE.[/quote']

 

Voluntarily lower your SPD to 1 and move at 6". You spend 1 END per turn, so no LTE. You move 24 meters per turn = 120 meters per minute = 7.2 km/hour.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Rules on Hiking? [6e]

 

Voluntarily lower your SPD to 1 and move at 6". You spend 1 END per turn' date=' so no LTE. You move 24 meters per turn = 120 meters per minute = 7.2 km/hour.[/quote']

...which is a brisk but not exhausting walk. I'd expect most fit (Char 10 rather than Char 8) characters in a heroic game to be able to keep that up pretty much indefinitely in the absence of other factors (e.g. having to struggle with difficult terrain or carry more than a light load). It's when you deviate even a little bit from the starting Characteristics that things start to get a little silly. Like when you buy that +1 Rec that someone pointed out can allow you to move at the full movement rate all day without any LTE loss.

 

Hmm. Here's an idea. Assign a certain minimum LTE loss rate for ANY activity requiring you to use more than the starting 10 Char, 2 Speed, 12m Running, etc. Characteristics for more than an hour. Then if you truly want a super-endurance character, you can actually buy more Endurance to last longer, or some kind of Healing that will restore LTE or something.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Rules on Hiking? [6e]

 

There was an old Hero supplement (from the Iron Crown days...the one about Ancient Greece I think) that had a system for long distance movement based on REC. Five miles/day/REC, I believe, so a decently fit guy can make 20 miles/day. A really fit normal guy can go 40, which is pretty hard to imagine, at least over a sustained length of time.

 

Historically, armies have been expected to move about 20 miles in a day. Daniel Boone went 160 miles from Chillicothe to Boonesborough in 5 days to warn of Shawnee attack. Does anyone have any other similar anecdotes?

[Escafarc]

Re: Rules on Hiking? [6e]

 

The Apache were said to be able to cover 40 miles a day in desert conditions.

[Outsider]

Re: Rules on Hiking? [6e]

 

Voluntarily lower your SPD to 1 and move at 6". You spend 1 END per turn' date=' so no LTE. You move 24 meters per turn = 120 meters per minute = 7.2 km/hour.[/quote']

 

Voluntarily lowering ones SPD to less than 2 is disallowed without special permission from the GM, at least in 5th Edition. (see the section on Entering Combat : Changing Speed (p 232 in 5th ed), and/or on Recovery : Holding Breath and Drowning (p 285 in 5th ed))

[prestidigitator]

Re: Rules on Hiking? [6e]

 

Everyone drowns at a minimum Speed of 2, yes, but you can certainly choose not to act (spend End) every Phase. Thus, it's reasonable to allow people to lower their Speed to 1 normally. In fact, I believe drowning is the ONLY case in which a character would potentially BENEFIT from a lower Speed. Even then you can let the character ACT on Speed 1 even though they must lose End as if they had another Phase (i.e. they must lose 1 more End each Turn than they spend on their one Phase of action at Speed 1).

[Outsider]

Re: Rules on Hiking? [6e]

 

Everyone drowns at a minimum Speed of 2' date=' yes, but you can certainly choose not to act (spend End) every Phase. Thus, it's reasonable to allow people to lower their Speed to 1 normally. In fact, I believe drowning is the ONLY case in which a character would potentially BENEFIT from a lower Speed. Even then you can let the character ACT on Speed 1 even though they must lose End as if they had another Phase (i.e. they must lose 1 more End each Turn than they spend on their one Phase of action at Speed 1).[/quote']

 

 

Not the ONLY beneficial case. Anyone trying to maintain any one of a number of continuous powers that cost END will realize a pretty significant benefit (half as much END spent per turn) by lowering their SPD to 1 instead of lowering it to 2.