For all your Nazis-invading-America needs....

[Markdoc]

http://bigthink.com/blogs/strange-maps

 

courtesy of mid 1940's Time Magazine

 

cheers, Mark

[GoldenAge]

Re: For all your Nazis-invading-America needs....

 

Cool!

[Ian Mackinder]

Re: For all your Nazis-invading-America needs....

 

Very interesting, if just to show what was on people's minds at the time..

 

All that was needed for most of them to work was the near-total disappearance of the US and Commonwealth militaries, and for the Germans to have twenty-plus times more sealift and long-range support than they ever had.

[Markdoc]

Re: For all your Nazis-invading-America needs....

 

Very interesting, if just to show what was on people's minds at the time..

 

All that was needed for most of them to work was the near-total disappearance of the US and Commonwealth militaries, and for the Germans to have twenty-plus times more sealift and long-range support than they ever had.

 

All true. We know now that the German and Japanese high commands had never seriously considered a US invasion.

 

But the Allies didn't know that, and it has to be remembered - just as noted in the article - that 1940, 41 and early '42 had just been one disaster after another for the Allies, with supposedly impregnable defences falling like dominoes. Not knowing just how stretched the axis armies were, it looked to a lot of people back then as though they were far stronger. In truth, the Axis had almost burnt itself out by mid 1942: they were taking losses that they simply couldn't make up - but again, that was not obvious to the outside - it wasn't even obvious to many people on the inside. Late-to mid 1942 saw El Alamein, Midway, Stalingrad and Guadalcanal, which put the seal on the turnaround, but prior to that things had been pretty grim.

 

cheers, Mark

[Ian Mackinder]

Re: For all your Nazis-invading-America needs....

 

True enough.

 

I recall reading some early news reports about the Pearl Harbour attack that claimed German units actively participated.

 

Also, just have to look at the defensive preparations made in Australia in 1942. Most of our forces were still in the Mediterranean (where Churchill tried to keep them) and it looked like NOTHING was stopping the Japanese.

 

There is a big underground bunker in the lower reaches of the then brand-new Town Hall Railway Station (in the Sydney CBD) that was to be a major command post; and at least one more built out in the western suburbs. The latter was sealed up and pretty much forgotten for many years, until somebody found one of the entrances in their backyard in the early 90s.

 

Preliminary steps were also taken to prepare bridges for demolition. The pylons of the old Hawkesbury River Railway Bridge, just north of Sydney, still show the marks of these preparations.

 

In retrospect, all arguably unnecssary. Much as some elements of the Japanese military would have liked to go for Australia, they never had the troops or the ships to spare for it. The most they could have hoped for was to prevent the US using Australia as a base for their counter-offensive. Though there are strong indications that Japan made some small commando-style landings up north, which amounted to nothing.

 

Plus, it seems to often be overlooked that, even with most of our forces elsewhere, we still had a sizable reserve at home, including a LOT of WW1 veterans in their 40s and 50s. Maybe not up to all the rigors of "modern" warfare, but still capable of shooting and who would have known the land extremely well indeed.

 

Interesting to note that my first contact with 'Alternate History' was a book in my school library called 'The Battle Of Sydney'. Details the Japanese invasion of Australia via the Northern Territory,across to Queensland and down the east coast. Logisitics quickly fail them, and what's left of the main force is inevitably wiped out in a 'Big Banzai' across the Sydney Harbour Bridge (ALMOST get halfway) and the subsequent 'Kirribilli Barbeque' (don't ask). Some aspects very good, others downright idiotic (the invasion is wiped out, but the rest of the Pacific War happens exactly as here).

[Steve Long]

Re: For all your Nazis-invading-America needs....

 

There was at least one other magazine article on this subject that had an accompanying map of "threats to the US" -- I see the map for sale on eBay occasionally. If anyone ever sells it for what I regard as an acceptable price I'll pick it up for my collection as a curiosity.

[lemming]

Re: For all your Nazis-invading-America needs....

 

I read The War? (Based on the Ken Burns bit) two months ago and there was a anecdote of one soldier talking to a german prisoner after the Battle of the Bulge who claimed he was originally trained to administer part of Connecticut. (Interesting book I thought btw)

[assault]

Re: For all your Nazis-invading-America needs....

 

In retrospect' date=' all arguably unnecssary. Much as some elements of the Japanese military would have liked to go for Australia, they never had the troops or the ships to spare for it.[/quote']

 

In the absence of the US, the big edge they would have had over Australia would have been air superiority. To maintain that, they would have had to control the Indian Ocean as well as the Pacific.

 

Though there are strong indications that Japan made some small commando-style landings up north, which amounted to nothing.

 

Which, along with allied commando operations, justifies all the (wartime Pulp and Golden Age Champions) scenarios you can eat.

 

Plus, it seems to often be overlooked that, even with most of our forces elsewhere, we still had a sizable reserve at home, including a LOT of WW1 veterans in their 40s and 50s. Maybe not up to all the rigors of "modern" warfare, but still capable of shooting and who would have known the land extremely well indeed.

 

The Militia were pretty good troops. Young, raw and poorly equipped, mainly, but with a seasoning of veterans. Only one battalion ever really disgraced itself (the 53rd), and at least one (the 39th) proved themselves to be on a par with anyone else in the world.

 

Even the Volunteer Defence Corps (Home Guard equivalent) wouldn't have been useless. As you mentioned, they had plenty of veterans. Furthermore, some VDC units did actually see combat. Most of them were anti-aircraft batteries, which performed quite adequately. Also, the New Guinea Volunteer Rifles were technically a VDC unit, and some of them ended up being incorporated into a commando squadron!

 

Finally, after a rocky start, the Papuan Infantry Battalion, and later the New Guinea Infantry Battalions, proved to be excellent jungle fighters. By the end of the war they were capable of taking on Japanese troops in frontal attacks against defensive positions! (Half starved and disease ravaged Japanese troops, admittedly - but the New Guineans were dubiously trained and equipped irregulars.)

 

So basically, invading Australia (and conquering New Guinea) would have required a massive commitment of Japanese resources - enough to make them vulnerable elsewhere.

 

Oh yes: and comparatively small Australian forces, with local allies, tied up much larger Japanese forces in Timor. The same thing would have happened in Australia, but it wouldn't have been a nice time to be a civilian...

[Shadow Hawk]

Re: For all your Nazis-invading-America needs....

 

Something people tend to ignore in alternate war stories is logistics, the art of moving men and supplies from point a to point b. Japan lacked the shipping to properly support the garrisons it had. Adding Australia (or Hawaii, or India, or anything really) would have made the problem worse. Not that Japan wouldn't have tried, the Japanese Army had a contempt for non-combat things like 'food supplies' or even 'lack of ammuntion'.

The Japanese Navy was more realistic, since thier ships needed fuel, but not overly so.

The German general staff had a healthy respect for the problems of logistics, but Hitler didn't. Hitler would give orders to units that they lacked the fuel to carry out. He also tended to not believe reports of units destroyed. So at the end of the war he'd give orders to units that no longer existed.

[Ian Mackinder]

Re: For all your Nazis-invading-America needs....

 

Something people tend to ignore in alternate war stories is logistics, the art of moving men and supplies from point a to point b. Japan lacked the shipping to properly support the garrisons it had. Adding Australia (or Hawaii, or India, or anything really) would have made the problem worse. Not that Japan wouldn't have tried, the Japanese Army had a contempt for non-combat things like 'food supplies' or even 'lack of ammuntion'.

The Japanese Navy was more realistic, since thier ships needed fuel, but not overly so.

 

The Battle Of Midway has always been of special interest to me. One of the better books on the battle was co-authored by Mitsuo Fuchida, one of the IJN's top aviators. Certain side-comments are of special interest, and seem relevant here. During planning of the Midway Operation, some naval officers expressed doubts about the viability of Midway as a base. Their reasoning was quite sound, certainly sounder than what was more widely accepted.

 

Midway was a l-o-n-g way from any Japanese bases (and a very short distance from the Hawaiian islands), so keeping it adequately garrisoned and supplied would have been a major problem. Running alongside that was a real concern that the US might have simply done nothing, rather than trying to seize the islands back (immediately, if the US followed the Japanese plan ). In effect, the IJN's massive invasion fleet would have expended a butt-load of valuable fuel to seize islands (of arguably limited value) for which they would then have to commit substantial forces to actually hold.

 

Even if Japan had succeeded on all counts - took Midway and wiped out the US carriers, they would have still had this problem. They just did not have the forces available for any real follow-up to a Midway victory - like, say, an invasion of the Hawaiian islands. Japanese forces were already very close to being fully extended on all fronts.

[Shadow Hawk]

Re: For all your Nazis-invading-America needs....

 

The Battle Of Midway has always been of special interest to me. One of the better books on the battle was co-authored by Mitsuo Fuchida, one of the IJN's top aviators. Certain side-comments are of special interest, and seem relevant here. During planning of the Midway Operation, some naval officers expressed doubts about the viability of Midway as a base. Their reasoning was quite sound, certainly sounder than what was more widely accepted.

 

Midway was a l-o-n-g way from any Japanese bases (and a very short distance from the Hawaiian islands), so keeping it adequately garrisoned and supplied would have been a major problem. Running alongside that was a real concern that the US might have simply done nothing, rather than trying to seize the islands back (immediately, if the US followed the Japanese plan ). In effect, the IJN's massive invasion fleet would have expended a butt-load of valuable fuel to seize islands (of arguably limited value) for which they would then have to commit substantial forces to actually hold.

 

Even if Japan had succeeded on all counts - took Midway and wiped out the US carriers, they would have still had this problem. They just did not have the forces available for any real follow-up to a Midway victory - like, say, an invasion of the Hawaiian islands. Japanese forces were already very close to being fully extended on all fronts.

 

For even more commentary on the subject, read "Shattered Sword" by Parshell and Tully. If the Japanese had taken out the American carriers, the forces they had on hand were inadequate to take Midway Island from the Marine defenders.

 

And as you say, the Japanese bases were far away, the American bases were close by. The Japanese could expect daily attacks by a hundred heavy bombers (B-17 Flying Fortress) and medium bombers (B-25 Mitchell) escorted by fighters (P-40 Warhawk and P-38 Lightning). And Midway is only a few days sailing from Pearl Harbor by submarine.

 

Simply put, if they had first one the naval battle, they couldn't have siezed the island; and if they had taken the island any garrison they put on it would be pounded and starved.

[Ian Mackinder]

Re: For all your Nazis-invading-America needs....

 

For even more commentary on the subject, read "Shattered Sword" by Parshell and Tully. If the Japanese had taken out the American carriers, the forces they had on hand were inadequate to take Midway Island from the Marine defenders.

 

And as you say, the Japanese bases were far away, the American bases were close by. The Japanese could expect daily attacks by a hundred heavy bombers (B-17 Flying Fortress) and medium bombers (B-25 Mitchell) escorted by fighters (P-40 Warhawk and P-38 Lightning). And Midway is only a few days sailing from Pearl Harbor by submarine.

 

Simply put, if they had first one the naval battle, they couldn't have siezed the island; and if they had taken the island any garrison they put on it would be pounded and starved.

 

A-n-d, if I recall correctly, a proper defense of Midway would have also required the IJN keeping at least one carrier (plus escort) on permanent station in the area. As if they had carriers to spare ....

[Shadow Hawk]

Re: For all your Nazis-invading-America needs....

 

A-n-d' date=' if I recall correctly, a proper defense of Midway would have also required the IJN keeping at least one carrier (plus escort) on permanent station in the area. As if they had carriers to spare ....[/quote']

 

As if they had the oilers to fuel the carrier to spare...

And the oil to put in the (you know what I mean).

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: For all your Nazis-invading-America needs....

 

Though there are strong indications that Japan made some small commando-style landings up north' date=' which amounted to nothing.[/quote']It's true enough. An old survivor of a Japanese Army Ninja Recon Team, Mr. Edo, later found a child whose parents were killed in a Land Rover accident. Mr. Edo raised the child, Don Morgan, as his own, and passed his skills on to his "son".

 

...

 

In the end, Mr. Edo sent Don to America to seek "the final truth". After arriving in the states, he took the name

 

oh, nevermind.

 

:SCUBA Hero walks off muttering to himself:

[Yansuf]

Re: For all your Nazis-invading-America needs....

 

It's true enough. An old survivor of a Japanese Army Ninja Recon Team, Mr. Edo, later found a child whose parents were killed in a Land Rover accident. Mr. Edo raised the child, Don Morgan, as his own, and passed his skills on to his "son".

 

...

 

In the end, Mr. Edo sent Don to America to seek "the final truth". After arriving in the states, he took the name

 

oh, nevermind.

 

:SCUBA Hero walks off muttering to himself:

 

Seeker! Come back, Seeker!

[Ian Mackinder]

Re: For all your Nazis-invading-America needs....

 

It's true enough. An old survivor of a Japanese Army Ninja Recon Team, Mr. Edo, later found a child whose parents were killed in a Land Rover accident. Mr. Edo raised the child, Don Morgan, as his own, and passed his skills on to his "son".

 

...

 

In the end, Mr. Edo sent Don to America to seek "the final truth". After arriving in the states, he took the name

 

oh, nevermind.

 

:SCUBA Hero walks off muttering to himself:

 

Actually, I was referring to a book titled 'Curtin's Cowboys - Australia's Secret Bush Commandos' by Richard & Helen Walker. It tells the story of the North Australia Observer Unit, a volunteer unit raised by the Australian Army in 1942. They were tasked with patrollling most of Northern Australia, from the Kimberleys to the Gulf Of Carpentaria - a sizable area that, for the most part, was only superficially explored (the only charts for some places had been done by HMS Beagle) and definitely as Ghodawful an area as to be found anywhere on Earth.

 

The basic idea was that the 'Nackaroos' (as they were called) would live off the land as much as possible, report any Japanese incursions or invasion, then remain hidden behind enemy lines to operate as guerillas and spies.

 

On several occasions, they did find indications of small Japanese landings on the coast - searches and investigation turned up nothing else, and they were ordered to not talk about it. General consensus among the Nackaroos and others "in the know" was that these Japanese units either withdrew very quickly or were basically "swallowed up" by the horrible conditions. Certainly, they did not achieve anything else.

 

By the way, the descendant of the NAOU is NORFORCE ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NORFORCE ).

[The Weapon]

Re: For all your Nazis-invading-America needs....

 

All true. We know now that the German and Japanese high commands had never seriously considered a US invasion.

 

But the Allies didn't know that, and it has to be remembered - just as noted in the article - that 1940, 41 and early '42 had just been one disaster after another for the Allies, with supposedly impregnable defences falling like dominoes. Not knowing just how stretched the axis armies were, it looked to a lot of people back then as though they were far stronger. In truth, the Axis had almost burnt itself out by mid 1942: they were taking losses that they simply couldn't make up - but again, that was not obvious to the outside - it wasn't even obvious to many people on the inside. Late-to mid 1942 saw El Alamein, Midway, Stalingrad and Guadalcanal, which put the seal on the turnaround, but prior to that things had been pretty grim.

cheers, Mark

 

Yeah things were looking grim, but anyone who could even halfway count knew that Germany had nothing like the sealift capacity or navy to protect it to land on US soil and survive. The Japanese might have the navy to escort the transports to the West Coast nowhere near enough transports to support an invasion across the Pacific. Sure Axis looked invincible, but it didn't look capable of an invasion to anyone who looked at their industry.

[The Weapon]

Re: For all your Nazis-invading-America needs....

 

In retrospect, all arguably unnecssary. Much as some elements of the Japanese military would have liked to go for Australia, they never had the troops or the ships to spare for it. The most they could have hoped for was to prevent the US using Australia as a base for their counter-offensive. Though there are strong indications that Japan made some small commando-style landings up north, which amounted to nothing.

 

My understanding is that they were dropped off in the almost uninhabitable and malarial parts of Cape York and never heard of again. Considering how crocodile-infested the area was at the time it must have been some of the worst things to endure in the entire war.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: For all your Nazis-invading-America needs....

 

Actually' date=' I was referring to a book titled '[i']Curtin's Cowboys - Australia's Secret Bush Commandos[/i]' by Richard & Helen Walker. It tells the story of the North Australia Observer Unit, a volunteer unit raised by the Australian Army in 1942. They were tasked with patrollling most of Northern Australia, from the Kimberleys to the Gulf Of Carpentaria - a sizable area that, for the most part, was only superficially explored and definitely as Ghodawful an area as to be found anywhere on Earth.

 

The basic idea was that the 'Nackeroos' (as they were called) would live off the land as much as possible, report any Japanese incursions or invasion, then remain hidden behind enemy lines to operate as guerillas and spies.

 

On several occasions, they did find indications of small Japanese landings on the coast - searches and investigation turned up nothing else, and they were ordered to not talk about it. General consensus among the Nackeroos and others "in the know" was that these Japanese units either withdrew very quickly or were basically "swallowed up" by the horrible conditions. Certainly, they did not achieve anything else.

 

By the way, the descendant of the NAOU is NORFORCE ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NORFORCE ).

I was not aware of that.

 

I intended no disrespect to any WWII troops.

[Ian Mackinder]

Re: For all your Nazis-invading-America needs....

 

I was not aware of that.

 

I intended no disrespect to any WWII troops.

 

No offense was taken, or even at all considered.

 

My only intention was to show that, yet again, truth can be a heckuva lot more interesting than fiction.

[Ian Mackinder]

Re: For all your Nazis-invading-America needs....

 

My understanding is that they were dropped off in the almost uninhabitable and malarial parts of Cape York and never heard of again. Considering how crocodile-infested the area was at the time it must have been some of the worst things to endure in the entire war.

 

Not just Cape York is my understanding. There were apparently a few separate instances all along 'The Top End'. A few works allude to the Japanese Army considering using units of "condemned" soldiers. Basically, just dump them in enemy territory with light equipment, with expectations that they would wreak havoc until destroyed. Given the emphasis given to "high-risk" ventures early on, and Kamikazes later, I suspect that Japanese generals did much more than merely discuss this particular idea.

 

Besides crocs - add sharks, stonefish, jellyfish, cassowarries, snakes, ferals, vast numbers of mossies, an extraordinary array of other small things that sting / bite (including some PLANTS!), humidity routinely in the 90%+ range, almost impassible terrain alternating between swampy and rugged, the occasional cyclone, etc..

 

Plus, I honestly doubt that any Japanese commandos dropped off here were prepared for the conditions either materially or in training. Even the "expert" data that the Nackaroos originally had fell far short of the reality - and they had local cooperation, including plenty of assistance from Aboriginals.

 

Think all the very worst things ever heard about Australia's environment, and absolutely none of the good stuff. Then, quadruple that.

[assault]

Re: For all your Nazis-invading-America needs....

 

My only intention was to show that' date=' yet again, truth can be a heckuva lot more interesting than fiction.[/quote']

 

And, obviously, fact can inspire fiction.

 

I've always thought it wonderful that Seeker's background is actually vaguely semi-plausible, by superheroic standards.

 

There's no particularly good reason why a lone Japanese soldier living in a remote area might not be dismissed as a myth, particularly if a couple of attempts to locate him fail. Local indigenous people could know he was actually there, and the local white population wouldn't necessarily believe them.

 

Even under the White Australia policy, there were a few families with Japanese ancestry floating around northern Australia. There had been pearl divers and the like around in the 19th century. There are hundreds of Japanese graves on Thursday Island, for example.

 

Such families could provide a certain amount of support to our hypothetical Mr Edo after the war, particularly if they were related.

 

Why wouldn't he want to return to Japan? Shame at failing his mission? Some kind of sense of duty? There's a story there if somebody feels like writing it.

 

Another alternative is, if our fictional Japanese raiders are competent ninja/commando types, rather than condemned riffraff, they would need to matched with equivalently competent Australian troops. Interactions between these kind of troops could also have occurred elsewhere.

 

On the Japanese side, the commandoes could be treated as ninja. The Australians could be drawn from, or trained by, various pulp style figures.

 

And thus we have the basis of a whole Golden Age Champions/Wartime Pulp campaign...

 

Or, as the introduction to a certain 1970s Australian TV show went:

"Early in 1942 the Japanese Army swept through the South Pacific towards the Australian mainland. They overran the Malay Peninsula and reached deep into the jungles of New Guinea. As a result numbers of civilian planters and soldiers were formed into highly trained espionage teams by Allied Headquarters in Australia. These men were directed into sabotage operations deep behind enemy lines throughout the Pacific area. Much of their work must remain top secret. One of these groups may well have been called: Spyforce."