Cybernetics

[Thia Halmades]

So, two things right off:

 

1> Seriously, how would you do it? Please give examples. I'm not asking to be flip, or because I can't do it, but I'm trying to get an idea of where the community stands on this issue.

 

2> Here's one that is boggling my mind: Jack loses an arm. Jack gets a cyberarm. Now what? Does he pay for it, if it has no real "impact?" Technically, Jack's arm had no limitations, but his cyberarm does! If he has it rated at his own STR (15, FREX) then does he get points back because he's no longer all human?

 

3> How do you measure the personal/spiritual/psychological impact, given that such a thing is important to the setting. As a point of reference, CyberPunk 2020, ShadowRun, they all include a sliding scale of personal impact. How would you measure that, preferably without creating a new stat?

 

I already have concepts and certain predispositions, but rather than say "critique this" I'm more interested in the open forum discussion of what your build would look like.

 

As always, thank you in advance.

[Zeropoint]

Re: Cybernetics

 

1) I'd do it by looking at the abilities and drawbacks of the cybernetic arm compared to the original.

 

2) Jack may qualify for a small disadvantage in that his arm requires specialized maintenance. Otherwise, if his arm doesn't do anything his old arm didn't, and CAN do everything his old arm did, it's just a special effect. Jack may also qualify for a social limitation of some sort, depending on how society views cybernetics.

 

3) While I personally disagree with the idea that our humanity and souls are so heavily dependent on meat, I'd represent this with a Psychological Limitation.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Cybernetics

 

Actually, ZP, in this case its about personal identity, first -- I watched a whole show on people with prosthetics which was downright eye-opening -- but more importantly about ones ability to wield magic while equipped with cybernetics.

 

So let me give you a little background:

 

There is one setting that I actually love. One. Just one. It isn't HALO (that's not a setting; that's a game I converted in my spare time). It's Ravenloft. A few years back, ArtHaus did Ravenloft for 3.0/3.5, and it was stellar. Now, the time has come for me to build a subordinate chapter in Halliruch, and that is...

 

Ravenloft: 2065.

 

I like the title. Catchy. Anyway. So this is a game about horrors, cyberware, and yes, magic. There is a very defined system of magic, and cybernetics interfere with it. That's much of the reason I'm asking the question. I don't want to tip my hand with my thoughts yet because I prefer to see what people do on the fly, but that's the impetus for the question.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Cybernetics

 

1-2: most of the time I have cybernetics at two levels: Standard and Advanced. Assuming cybernetics are 'powered' in a way that they are more than dead extensions of the limb that used to be there and act like actual limbs, EMPs and the like affect them; the Restrainable Limitation covers this for me. Advanced don't have that Limitation (shielded or however you explain it).

 

If the setting is one such that adding mechanical parts to you some how lessens you ("Oh, you poor thing, does it feel like a real hand?") then you also get a Social Complication. If it is one such that this is both an acceptable and expected replacement then it's just nothing in particular, SFX. Some people like to have their replacement limb look real and add synthetic skin, some don't mind the metal and leave it, some treat it like an accessory, add designs (LED patterns like tattoos, paint it wild colors, model it to look like a Terminator Arm, whatever) or some people just can't afford anything but a stock model and are forced to leave it. Generally how that goes over in Society At Large is referenced as either Social Complication or nothing (if cyber is ubiquitous or expected then nothing), designs could very well get Distinctive Features (just like tattoos and piercings). If there is a personal feeling of shame then they can take a Psychological Limitation to reflect that, on top of any Social Complications that may exist (or if none, then it is just a personal matter). In short:

 

Social Complication: dependent on society and views of replacing body parts with metal, or the expectation that you will get cybernetic limbs when you lose or don't have any. If it's normal then none, if it's still weird, then one.

Distinctive Features: dependent on how much it stands out, like any DF

Psychological Complication: filters completely on one's personal view of getting metal where there was once flesh.

 

3- can't help you, I find the concept meta-gamey and immediately toss it out if I have any say. Any views on "Humanity" are, IMO, personal and should be reflected by a case-by-case basis Psychological Complication. To me the very idea of a "humanity score" means that society will immediately reject metal as a solution as a whole and focus on other tech. If there is a debate over one's "humaness" then you're back into case-by-case basis of Psych Comps. Some people will be "yeah, cyber. does it have bottle opener?" and some will be "Tool Of The Devil!!" and they get the Psych "Hates Cyber" but a 'humanity scale' is - to be blunt - stupid.

[The_Patriot]

Re: Cybernetics

 

I built the cybernetics in Inceptum Terminus: Chronicles of the New Confederation as OIF or IIF depending on where the cybernetic was located. I wanted the cybernetics to be able to destroyed so I either made them fragile or durable, gave them rPD/rED, and gave them 1 Body for fragile and 2 Body for durable. My cybernetics all have a mechanical benefit, so they're properly statted up. Here's a sample cyberarm from my book.

 

Basic Cyberarm and Hand: (Total: 11 Active Cost, 6 Real Cost) +2 BODY (2 Active Points); OIF Durable (-½), Conditional Power Power Does Not Work In Intense Magnetic Fields (-¼) (Real Cost: 1) plus Resistant Protection (3 PD/3 ED) (9 Active Points); OIF Durable (-½), Conditional Power Power Does Not Work In Intense Magnetic Fields (-¼) (Real Cost: 5) Real Cost: 6

[sinanju]

Re: Cybernetics

 

If the cyberlimb simply replaces the existing hand, I'd say it costs nothing. The PC might get a complication (it's occasionally recognizable as cybernetic, or it occasionally malfunctions, or requires maintenance or repair--it doesn't heal, etc.). But not necessarily. If it gives him additional capabilities, he'd have to pay for them as usual, with whatever advantages or limitations suit the situation. For instance, STR 10 with Zero END Cost. He's no stronger than he ever was, but he can hang from it all day if he needs/wants to. On the other hand, he might not be able to Push his STR with that limb. It can do what it can do, and nothing more.

 

As for Cyberpsychosis, I believe that a was a metagame concept included to prevent munchkins from going insane with cyberware...by making their CHARACTERS go insane with too much cyberware.

[Naanomi]

Re: Cybernetics

 

I agree that it is basically just an arm, with some additional limitations possible. If it has more STR than a normal arm, buy it with the 'only for cybernetic arm' limitation, and maybe '0 END' advantage.

 

Complications that would fit:

Psychological (various)

Social (if discrimination exists)

Distinctive Appearance

Dependence (to model maintainance)

Physical Limitation (if the arm is 'hackable' or otherwise affected as machine-class mind in the setting)

[GAZZA]

Re: Cybernetics

 

In Shadowrun or Cyberpunk there are no reasons not to cyber yourself to the gills without some sort of artificial "humanity" or "essence" mechanic (at least Shadowrun has the "makes you bad at magic" semi-excuse; Cyberpunk it always felt like pure metagaming). Hero shouldn't have this problem, since you're paying points for it (assuming it is actually better than your meat arm was).

 

If cyberpsychosis was real, I wonder how the plague of serial killers from contact lense wearers and cochlear implants has been so successfully covered up by the Illuminati. By a strict definition of the word "cybernetic" even someone like me that wears glasses is a cyborg. And I rarely kill people.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Cybernetics

 

Well, in RL:2065 the system is one of drawing energy, channeling said energy, and sending it elsewhere. While I accept that my fellows may in fact find this meta-gamey/kludgey/etc., I don't mind a bit of forced balance. No, you may not be a fully tricked out cyborg and still be awesome with magic. Just ain't gonna happen. But that's why I'm the GM. Also, in part, this game is meant to invoke that sort of thing. You've all answered the first half of the question: HERO, unless you're getting some sort of advantage from the thing, doesn't bat an eyelash. You say you're made of metal? Pay for those things that say, to you, "I am metal," and so on. I appreciate the feedback as always, y'all.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Cybernetics

 

Well' date=' in RL:2065 the system is one of drawing energy, channeling said energy, and sending it elsewhere. While I accept that my fellows may in fact find this meta-gamey/kludgey/etc., I don't mind a bit of forced balance. No, you may not be a fully tricked out cyborg and still be awesome with magic. Just ain't gonna happen. But that's why I'm the GM. Also, in part, this game is meant to invoke that sort of thing. You've all answered the first half of the question: HERO, unless you're getting some sort of advantage from the thing, doesn't bat an eyelash. You say you're made of metal? Pay for those things that say, to you, "I am metal," and so on. I appreciate the feedback as always, y'all.[/quote']

 

You don't need a Mechanic to say you can't have Cyber and Magic - that's simply a campaign design consideration. "You choose one package, or the other."

[Nolgroth]

Re: Cybernetics

 

My own answers;

 

 

1. My own interpretation is that replacement limbs would get the Focus or Physical Manifestation limitation as well as Restrainable. They would be subject to damage separate from the main body, so the net Limitation value might well be -0. Other forms of cyberware would probably have some limitation reflecting that they can be damaged due to physical trauma (Impairing/Disabling Wounds).
   
2. An exact replacement would not cost anything. Even with the limitation value though, the character would gain no points directly. A Distinctive Features: Concealable (w Effort), Requires Special Senses (Cyberware detection machines) would be part of the package. If the character loses the natural limb and gains a cyberlimb during play, he gets the Distinctive Features at 0 value (subject to GM judgment of course).
   
3. I agree with ghost-angel that a "Humanity" characteristic is sort of pointless. On the other hand, something like Shadowrun Essence could be dealt with by establishing an Active Point cap for both Cyberware and Magic. If the person spends points in Cyberware, it lowers the amount of Active Points in which that character can use to buy spells. For instance; there is a campaign maxima of 60 Active Points for either spells or cyberware. Bob's character is injured during an explosion and loses his eyesight. Cyber replacement eyes (I believe the AP for eyesight is 20) are installed. Now Bob's character could only spend 40 Active Points on spells.
   
4. In the above, you could be an Active Point Loss (to Magic) cap on any given replacement. In Bob's character's case, you might put a 20 Active Point Loss on replacement eyes, no matter how many mods are put into the eye (Nightvision, Thermographic, Telescopic, etc). Indeed, the Active Point Loss cap could be standardized for each replacement type. Gets pretty complicated, but it is doable. You can also change the Active Point Loss to Real Point Loss, so that Focus and/or other limitations make cyberware not as magically devastating.
   

Neat thread. Been sort of letting cybernetic enhancements percolate in the back of my brain.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Cybernetics

 

You don't need a Mechanic to say you can't have Cyber and Magic - that's simply a campaign design consideration. "You choose one package' date=' or the other."[/quote']

 

Normally when i open a sentence with the phrase, "with all due respect,"it means that none is given. That isn't the case here, but with all due respect GA, you know that this isn't a design philosophy question, but a concept question. I freely accept that you wouldn't do it this way, but I am doing it this way. If you have a bunch if cyberware, it impacts your ability to cast. I consider saying "these things are mutually exclusive"to be add much of a kludge as anything else. This is a conscious design decision.

 

That being said, I'm offering the puzzle. I don't mind if you don't have a solution for the puzzle, but please don't tell me (summarized) that the puzzle is stupid because it doesn't align with your concepts.

 

DEM/TH 8 Feb @ 8:09a; Note to Self: Do not attempt to make diplomacy rolls early in the morning. This came out harsher than I intended, but the premise is sound. In this case, Nolgroth has the gist of it -- I'm not trying to force anyone down one path or another, I'm trying to have a sustainable balance between being tricked out, and using magic, and of course, using neither. The purpose wasn't to create a Humanity/Essence score, it was to ask, "given this puzzle, how would you solve for it?" So Nolgroth is on the right track.

 

Thanks, Nolgroth!

 

And again, sorry for the failed Diplo roll.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Cybernetics

 

Assumption 1: Magic does not require a Skill Roll

Physical Complication: The Cost Of Metal

When a character adds cybernetics magic becomes inherently harder to cast. It requires a Skill Roll to cast as the standard -1 per 10 AP in the spell. Additionally, Cybernetics also forces an additional -1 per 20 AP of Cybernetics the character has installed. The more cyber one has, the harder magic becomes to control.

*

Assumption 2: Magic requires a Skill Roll already

Physical Complication: The Cost Of Metal

When a character adds cybernetics magic becomes even harder to control than normal, the skill roll becomes -1 per 5AP in the spell. Additionally, cybernetics forces an additional -1 per 20 AP of Cybernetics the character has installed. The more cyber one has, the harder magic becomes to control.

*

Points: By forcing a skill roll, or a greater skill roll, on a character you can also take into account “cyber worth 0 points” such as just a plain limb replacement with nothing fancy. Any cybernetics that also cost Character Points start to interfere at an even greater level. How a GM treats the replacement of just a hand versus full replacement of the lower limbs (at just the “Replaced to equivalent normal human level” with no augmentation) is left alone. If the GM needs to quantify 0-point cybernetics treat each full limb as a 20AP “power” when affecting the Magic Skill Roll. [a hand may only add the skill roll to the character sheet, a full arm replacement will add the skill roll and impose an additional -1. Full lower limb replacement of both legs imposes an additional -2. Full Body Conversion – treating the torso as a limb – would impose an additional -5 to the Magic SR.]

*

From a pure campaign ground rules level: the more cybernetics one has the more points it requires to gain usable magic, not only is the character spending points on both cyber and magic, but they’re spending more points on the involved skill roll to use the magic. Whether the RSR Limitation is applied to magic spells or keeps the penalty solely as a Complication is up to the GM.

*

Complication Value: The value here is left blank, it’s up to the GM to decide just how often and how impairing this will be. As a Complication with potential to come into play mid-campaign, it will also likely be added as a 0 Point Complication. Either way, it is required to be taken when a Character adds anything Cybernetic, from a standard limb replacement to full augmentations.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Cybernetics

 

For psychological and social problems, use complications. For building the arm, just buy the characteristic up with "only for X limb", and No END. OIF may qualify, but how is the arm OIF anymore than your actual arm is OIF? Just my $.02

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Cybernetics

 

A basic, ordinary arm that is somehow identical to a normal arm, except that it is cybernetic. Possibilities:

 

 

1. Physical Limitation: Missing Arm (probably Frequent, Greatly Impairing). Create a Custom Power: Buy Off Missing Arm, through whatever Focus value the cybernetic-ness of the arm is worth (note: none is a valid option here).
   
2. Physical Limitation: Cybernetic Arm (Infrequent, Slightly Impairing), and treat it as being removable as Inaccessible Focus or whatever (same caveat as above). Part of the Complication value is that it might also require some amount of maintenance.
   
3. Buy the character's STR with the Restrainable Limitation, perhaps halved in value for it being one arm only.
   

 

If the limb has additional abilities, buy them as normal. Whether it's a Focus or not is based on how easy it is to remove the limb. (Removing doesn't always mean "taking it out of the owner's possession". An Accessible Focus has to be easily "removable" in combat, while an Inaccessible has to be removable out of combat. An EMP that disables an Accessible cybernetic arm could easily qualify as the method for "removing" it.)

 

As for how cybernetics affect the use of magic, FH6E p. 258 talks about restrictions on the use of magic. Consider: a fantasy world where mages aren't allowed to wear metal armor (p. 261 refers to this). For "metal" just substitute "cybernetics". Though a potential difference might be this: in a fantasy world, a wizard could easily pick up and put down a metal weapon or armor, while with a cybernetic limb it's not so easy.

 

I lean toward agreement with GA in that ultimately it's a magic system design consideration. This is just part of How Magic Works. Turn it around: What is the mechanical value (or implication) of a character who is Unable To Buy Powers Of Type X? Example: In a Champions game I have a character who is a gadgeteer. His concept doesn't call for him to have mental powers, so I don't just suddenly buy him 10d6 of Telepathy without some kind of gyrations to explain it (radiation accident, etc.). There's no mechanical enforcement for this; the enforcement is in GM Says No.

 

If you did want to mechanize (mechanicize?) it, I'd go with Nolgroth here, especially his points 3 and 4.

[Sketchpad]

Re: Cybernetics

 

Hmm ... For cybernetics, I'd be tempted to use the Cybernetics rules used in the Global Guardians PBEM campaign:

 

Cybernetics (-¼): This Limitation represents a system of implants and technological replacements for biological organisms. Most people know it better as "bionics". Instead of putting the man into the machine (as with Battlesuit), Cybernetics means putting the machine into the man. The powers and abilities bought with this limitation have many of the same problems as a Battlesuit. For example, the System Failure rolls are also used for Cybernetics, as well as the repair/replacement Limitations. Especially appropriate is the Difficult To Repair/Replace Limitation, because cybernetic systems that are damaged or destroyed almost always require major surgery to fix. Cybernetics cannot be taken away from a character in combat, but they can be neutralized in other ways. Also note that Cybernetics are not inherently obvious. Someone with obvious Cybernetics should take the Distinctive Feature Obvious Superhuman.

 

As for using humanity/magic, a couple of thoughts on that:

 

1) Create a Humanity (HUM) stat that measures the amount of humanity someone has. Start it around 10 and allow it to be bought up at a x2 ratio. As a player gets cybernetics, they lose AP/10 HUM per part. For example, someone gets Cyberblades (2d6 HKA; Cybernetic 30/24) added in, so they'd lose 3 HUM. At 0 HUM or lower, characters need to make Cyberpsychosis (EGO Roll - HUM value) each time they perform an action with their cybernetics.

 

2) Create a MANA stat that's basically END for magic-users. Costs the same, and can be used in the same manner ... only that it can only be used on magical spells and devices. When a character has the Cybernetics limitation, increase the limitation to +½ and add: "When casting spells, all MANA is doubled due to Cyber-Interference."

 

3) Finally, for people who want to "Borg Up" their heroes, open some of the automaton powers and make a new Talent:

Borg: You have opted to convert yourself into a mechanical body. The only thing that has remained organic is your brain, which has been treated to withstand the rigors of not having a physical body. You do not suffer from Cyberpsychosis, and may be victim to being hacked by skilled hackers. 15 points

 

As an aside, I can't suggest Mike Surbrook's Kazei 5 enough for folks looking at running cyber-based campaigns. It's by far one of the coolest books I've seen

[Susano]

Re: Cybernetics

 

As an aside' date=' I can't suggest Mike Surbrook's Kazei 5 enough for folks looking at running cyber-based campaigns. It's by far one of the coolest books I've seen

 

Yeah, I was just going to mention that. I cover a lot of what being discussed here in the cybernetics section. It might not be what the OP is looking for, but it certainly should provide ideas and food for thought.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Cybernetics

 

C'mon Mike -- you know I'm not going to buy a book for one section, no matter how much I support you. I already bought (and still have signed copies) of the Asian Bestiary I & II. Plug formerly acknowledged.

 

I think I really like what you did there Sketch -- rather than fumbling around trying to hyper-map everything (see HERO: Combat Evolved) boiling it in this case down to a -1/4 Limitation (Real Weapon, IIF, etc.) I think that's consistent, and it can carry with it things like the EMP and other "common sense" level impacts. If you're going bigger/badder, then that can be built out separately.