Create Light and the 17 Point Light Spell that isn't

[Legendsmiths]

So, I am working on stuff and light, as a power/effect has been lurking out there. This has been a bugaboo for a while, something that I've hand waived for years.

 

With some of the new additions to 6E there is a rather elegant way to build a "light" effect if you are reasoning that the goal of a Create Light power is to enable others to see (reasoning from effect).

 

Lamp:

Nightvision, Persistent (+1/4), Usable Simultaneously (all targets standing within 10 meters of Grantor; +1 1/2); Time Limit (20 Minutes; -1), OAF (-1)

Active 14, Real 5

 

Now, where I am going with this is that this is far more than what I want to achieve with a torchlight equivalent magical light. A small orb the size of a tennis ball that can create a light bright enough for a 4m radius space.

 

Using the power above as the maximum boundary of effect. How do I roll this back?

 

Working through it some more, I get:

 

Lamp:

Nightvision, Persistent (+1/4), Usable Simultaneously (all targets standing within 10 meters of Grantor, Grantor can take back power at any time; +1), Recipient must remain close to Grantor; OAF Fragile Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; -1 1/4), Time Limit (20 Minutes; -1), Physical Manifestation (Visible Light; -1/4), Perceivable (Bright Light; -1/4)

Active 12, Real 3

 

The Physical Manifestation is for the physicality of light (reflections, being able to hood the item, etc.). Perceivable is because otherwise every target simply has Nightvision there is no sense that the power is sourced at the "Lamp".

 

The further challenge is that minor variations either in area of effect or duration have little to no impact on the cost of the power and yet this is probably the purest instance of "Create Light" from a game mechanics point of view, reasoning from the "we all want to see in the dark" effect.

 

As a persistent item, a magical torch for example, it would be 4 points.

 

Ahh, I've got it. In Usable Simultaneously use the number of targets as an analog for area of effect.

 

Magic Candle: Nightvision, Usable Simultaneously (up to 2 people at once; +1/4), Recipient must remain close to Grantor, Grantor can take back power at any time, Persistent (+1/4); OAF Fragile Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; -1 1/4), Restrainable (-1/2), Perceivable (Bright Light; -1/4). A/R 7/2

 

Magic Torch: Nightvision, Persistent (+1/4), Usable Simultaneously (up to 8 people at once; +3/4), Recipient must remain close to Grantor, Grantor can take back power at any time; OAF Fragile Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; -1 1/4), Restrainable (-1/2), Perceivable (Bright Light; -1/4). A/R 10/3

 

Magic Lantern: Nightvision, Persistent (+1/4), Usable Simultaneously (up to 16 people at once; +1), Recipient must remain close to Grantor, Grantor can take back power at any time; OAF Fragile Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; -1 1/4), Restrainable (-1/2), Perceivable (Bright Light; -1/4). A/R 11/4

 

Magic Lamp: Nightvision, Persistent (+1/4), Usable Simultaneously (up to 64 people at once; +1 1/2), Recipient must remain close to Grantor, Grantor can take back power at any time; OAF Fragile Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; -1 1/4), Restrainable (-1/2), Perceivable (Bright Light; -1/4). A/R 14/5

 

So, somebody just point me in the right direction if I just jumped off the deep end.

 

Thanks.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Create Light and the 17 Point Light Spell that isn't

 

Admittedly, I'm still in 5e, but the official way to create Light used to be Images, however big was appropriate, only to create light. In 4e, it was Change Environment.

 

The problem I see with your construction(s) is that I can't see why the recipient would need to be close to the grantor, or how the grantor could rescind the power at any time; if I'm holding a flashlight or torch, anybody can see what it illuminates, whether or not they're standing near me, and I can't make other people unable to see without dousing the light and turning off the power entirely.

[Escafarc]

Re: Create Light and the 17 Point Light Spell that isn't

 

The only problem with this is that this cancels the pentaly for being in the dark and the people will be able to see a lot farther than if they were holding a "torch-like" light source.

[Lucius]

Re: Create Light and the 17 Point Light Spell that isn't

 

So, I am working on stuff and light, as a power/effect has been lurking out there. This has been a bugaboo for a while, something that I've hand waived for years.

 

With some of the new additions to 6E there is a rather elegant way to build a "light" effect if you are reasoning that the goal of a Create Light power is to enable others to see (reasoning from effect).

 

Lamp:

Nightvision, Persistent (+1/4), Usable Simultaneously (all targets standing within 10 meters of Grantor; +1 1/2); Time Limit (20 Minutes; -1), OAF (-1)

Active 14, Real 5

 

This is of course flawlessly logical, and I think I have suggested it myself somewhere or other on the boards here.

 

Now, where I am going with this is that this is far more than what I want to achieve with a torchlight equivalent magical light. A small orb the size of a tennis ball that can create a light bright enough for a 4m radius space.

 

Using the power above as the maximum boundary of effect. How do I roll this back?

 

Working through it some more, I get:

 

Lamp:

Nightvision, Persistent (+1/4), Usable Simultaneously (all targets standing within 10 meters of Grantor, Grantor can take back power at any time; +1),

 

I'm uncertain about "take back power" here. Someone suggested it didn't make sense, because you can't pick and choose - either the light's on or off, the lamp is hooded or not. On the other hand, without this modifier, one could argue that hooding the lamp still lets others see if they choose to keep using the power you granted them by lighting the lamp in the first place.

 

Recipient must remain close to Grantor; OAF Fragile Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; -1 1/4)' date=' Time Limit (20 Minutes; -1), Physical Manifestation (Visible Light; -1/4), [/quote']

 

While it's possible that some kind of further Limitation is needed, I don't think "Physical Manifestation" is appropriate. For one thing, it's already a Focus.

 

Perceivable (Bright Light; -1/4)

Active 12, Real 3

 

The Physical Manifestation is for the physicality of light (reflections, being able to hood the item, etc.). Perceivable is because otherwise every target simply has Nightvision there is no sense that the power is sourced at the "Lamp".

 

The further challenge is that minor variations either in area of effect or duration have little to no impact on the cost of the power and yet this is probably the purest instance of "Create Light" from a game mechanics point of view, reasoning from the "we all want to see in the dark" effect.

 

As a persistent item, a magical torch for example, it would be 4 points.

 

Ahh, I've got it. In Usable Simultaneously use the number of targets as an analog for area of effect.

 

Magic Candle: Nightvision, Usable Simultaneously (up to 2 people at once; +1/4), Recipient must remain close to Grantor, Grantor can take back power at any time, Persistent (+1/4); OAF Fragile Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; -1 1/4), Restrainable (-1/2), Perceivable (Bright Light; -1/4). A/R 7/2

 

Rather than Expendable Focus, I'd suggest a Fuels Charge. And what makes this candle magic, as opposed to a mundane candle?

 

Magic Torch: Nightvision, Persistent (+1/4), Usable Simultaneously (up to 8 people at once; +3/4), Recipient must remain close to Grantor, Grantor can take back power at any time; OAF Fragile Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; -1 1/4), Restrainable (-1/2), Perceivable (Bright Light; -1/4). A/R 10/3

 

Magic Lantern: Nightvision, Persistent (+1/4), Usable Simultaneously (up to 16 people at once; +1), Recipient must remain close to Grantor, Grantor can take back power at any time; OAF Fragile Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; -1 1/4), Restrainable (-1/2), Perceivable (Bright Light; -1/4). A/R 11/4

 

Magic Lamp: Nightvision, Persistent (+1/4), Usable Simultaneously (up to 64 people at once; +1 1/2), Recipient must remain close to Grantor, Grantor can take back power at any time; OAF Fragile Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; -1 1/4), Restrainable (-1/2), Perceivable (Bright Light; -1/4). A/R 14/5

 

So, somebody just point me in the right direction if I just jumped off the deep end.

 

Thanks.

 

You're definitely on the right track. I think once we get it all ironed out, the Explosion version of Area Effect will apply. After all, if you're holding a torch, you'll see something next to you just fine, have a -1 to see something further away, then -2 and on to full darkness. Figuring out how to construct it so that it should work that way may be the challenge.

 

We may also want to look at the Transmit Adder. I have a feeling it may be relevant.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Detect Palindromedary

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Create Light and the 17 Point Light Spell that isn't

 

Thank you, Lucius.

 

What I was trying to outline was that, in so many words, the base power was superior in every way to a Torch or a Lantern but achieved the same effect. So, at the upper limits, a Torch or Lantern should never cost more than this power build, assuming the build is accurate.

 

AE Explosion works for effects that can be incremented, but Nightvision cannot. I can definitely see how to use explosion (and have several builds using that with images and other stuff), but I always end up with an inferior effect solution.

 

Grantor can take back power at anytime has to be in the context of all or nothing, perhaps as a -0 clarification to the advantage.

 

Recipient must remain close to Grantor means they must remain within 10m, the outer limit of really most portable light sources.

 

The "Magic" part of the name is that it never burnt out. I realize I have Expendable on there which is I think part of a half-thought. In its current state, I would activate the light and it would remain on, forever, until I turn it off, at which point it would be burnt out. Unlikely that fits anyone's metaphysical models, but that doesn't alter the cost all that much. Removing expendable makes it magic. Adding Continuing Charges: Fuel makes it more like a traditional torch/lamp (although the difference in duration has very little impact on the cost).

 

The one problem I do see here is that someone can't walk into the area after the effect starts and benefit from it, at least not without an action on the Grantor's part. That does break the model somewhat.

 

Grrr. For what it provides, Images just seems way more expensive that it should be for the impact on the game. I say that with the full realization of how dangerous darkness can be and how we all take the ability to see in the dark for granted. The metagame impact of having to spend significant points on a power to see is annoying at best, even though that ability is critical to survival. It is essentially a given, the absence of which gets in the way of the rest of the adventure and rarely is dealing with darkness the focus of most fantasy adventures.

 

Here are the Images builds using d20 lighting elements:

 

 

5 Candle: Sight Group Images, +/-3 to PER Rolls, Area Of Effect (2m Radius; +1/4); OAF (-1), Only To Create Light (-1), Easily Blown Out (-1), No Range (-1/2), 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Hour (-1/4) ()

7 Torch: Sight Group Images, +/-4 to PER Rolls, Area Of Effect (12m Radius Explosion; +1/4); OAF (-1), Only To Create Light (-1), No Range (-1/2), 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Hour (-1/4) ()

9 Lamp: Sight Group Images, +/-4 to PER Rolls, Area Of Effect (9m Radius Explosion; +1/4); OAF (-1), Only To Create Light (-1), No Range (-1/2), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 6 Hours (+1/4) ()

11 Lantern: Sight Group Images, +/-4 to PER Rolls, Area Of Effect (18m Radius Explosion; +1/2); OAF (-1), Only To Create Light (-1), No Range (-1/2), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 6 Hours (+1/4) ()

[Lucius]

Re: Create Light and the 17 Point Light Spell that isn't

 

AE Explosion works for effects that can be incremented, but Nightvision cannot.

 

It can't? Here's the build in the rules:

 

Nightvision

Cost: 5 Character Points (+4 Enhanced

Perception, with a -½ Limitation, Only To

Counteract Darkness Modifiers; Passive).

 

Looks to me like it has 4 increments.

 

Grantor can take back power at anytime has to be in the context of all or nothing, perhaps as a -0 clarification to the advantage.

 

Agreed.

 

Recipient must remain close to Grantor means they must remain within 10m, the outer limit of really most portable light sources.

 

As long as it's clarified that "Grantor" for purposes of this Power is the light source. The guy who lights the candle can immediately teleport to Far, Far Away, and as long as he leaves the candle behind his absence doesn't plunge the room into fdarkness.

 

The one problem I do see here is that someone can't walk into the area after the effect starts and benefit from it, at least not without an action on the Grantor's part. That does break the model somewhat.

 

That IS a problem. I suggest a Limitation (not proposing a value yet) that will cover "is a light." This will cover the radius of effect issue (i.e. you can't see past a certain point) and the fact that others can easily see YOU if you're holding the light (you can't see the Goblin/thief/whatever lurking at the other end of the dark corridor, but they sure know where YOU are standing in that pool of light) and the fact that the effects are basically out of your control - you can't deny the benefit of light to your enemies, but you also don't have to worry that your ally arriving late to the party will somehow be blind despite standing now in the same circle of light you're in.

 

Further refinements of magical light (i.e. more powerful spells) may actuall HAVE that kind of control - letting you decide who gets to see and who doesn't.

 

 

 

Grrr. For what it provides, Images just seems way more expensive that it should be for the impact on the game.

 

Not to mention the fact that it's arbitrary and illogical, and unlike a NightVision based solution, is not derived by "reasoning from effect."

 

Here are the Images builds using d20 lighting elements:

 

d20 lighting elements?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary names Neon and Tungsten as lighting elements

[dmjalund]

Re: Create Light and the 17 Point Light Spell that isn't

 

I believe I have previously voiced my objectionsto using Images (only to create light) is like using entangle (only to cool drinks)

 

just as generating light is only one possible special effect for Images, just as ice is only one special effect of Entangle

[Lucius]

Re: Create Light and the 17 Point Light Spell that isn't

 

I believe I have previously voiced my objectionsto using Images (only to create light) is like using entangle (only to cool drinks)

 

just as generating light is only one possible special effect for Images, just as ice is only one special effect of Entangle

 

Beautifully put. I'll have to reputize you later.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary, only for generating taglines

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Create Light and the 17 Point Light Spell that isn't

 

If you don't want to use the official Images method, why not use Change Environment? It's not RAW, but neither is the build you are making, and with CE you don't have to bother with the Usable By Others and all that.

 

EDIT: Didn't someone up thread even mention that CE was the official way back in 4th? It just seems both simpler and more straight forward. IMO of course.

[Utech]

Re: Create Light and the 17 Point Light Spell that isn't

 

CE certainly makes more sense to me.

 

Another option is to make a new Power: Light. (written up quickly and with absolutely no playtesting)

 

Light

Type: Standard Power/Sense-Affecting Power

Duration: Constant

Target: Hex

Range: Self

Costs END: Yes

Cost: See Light Summary Table

 

A character with Light can create a field that floods an area with the carrier of information (usually light) that allows one Sense Group (usually the Sight Group) to function normally. Some examples of Light include candles, flashlights, a match, and a neon sign for your favorite hops-based beverage.

 

 

Light makes the covered area accessible to Senses that would otherwise be blind. Light does not counteract Darkness by default, but a GM may rule that the Power with more Active Points is dominant.

 

Light Summary Table:

Cost To Fill One Hex: 5 for one Targeting Sense Group; 3 for one Nontargeting Sense Group

Cost Per +2 Meter Radius: +5 for one Targeting Sense Group; +3 for one Nontargeting Sense Group

Extra Senses: +5 for one Targeting Sense Group; +3 for one Targeting Sense; +3 for one Nontargeting Sense Group; +1 for one Nontargeting Sense

[Lucius]

Re: Create Light and the 17 Point Light Spell that isn't

 

If you don't want to use the official Images method' date=' why not use Change Environment? [/quote']

 

Because we're applying the reason-from-effect principle.

 

Although I have to admit that while Night Vision makes perfect sense, Change Environment does make some sense.

 

edit: Utech is actually making some sense too, although I'm personally reluctant to introduce new whole-cloth Powers.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary remarks that sometimes, Lucius does that without even thinking

[Manic Typist]

Re: Create Light and the 17 Point Light Spell that isn't

 

I've been doing some tinkering with light spells myself lately, and I am currently content with Images for that purpose. I didn't find it too expensive, but I am using a VPP so perhaps that makes the difference?

 

Regardless, on reasoning from effect: If you want to see in the dark, then Night Vision makes sense. It is dark but you can still see...

 

However, if you want to "make it not dark so that I can see" then I'd say Images or Change Environment (or hell, maybe even Transform) would be a more logical result than Night Vision.

 

 

Edit: MY biggest complaint in the Sensory Affecting Powers area (at least right now), frex: Images, is how I MUST BUY A SENSORY GROUP (as opposed to just the one specific sense you want)! It is really annoying, and jacks up the price unnecessarily. What if I want to create a light spell that JUST generates light at the normal visual spectrum (for humans at least)? If you want it to just have Normal Sight, the best I've done so far is to set the default group to Sight Group and then use a custom adder to reduce the cost to reflect the normal price of "Normal Sight." Gr.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Create Light and the 17 Point Light Spell that isn't

 

Creating a Light power built on Darkness doesn't work either. You end up getting more expensive than Images.

 

Change Environment works, although is not RAW.

 

3 Candlelight: Change Environment (-4 to Normal Sight PER Rolls, Offsets Penalties) (8 Active Points); OAF (-1), No Range (-1/2), 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Hour (-1/4) ()

 

4 Torchlight: Change Environment (-4 to Normal Sight PER Rolls, Offsets Penalties), Area Of Effect (12m Radius Explosion; +1/4) (10 Active Points); OAF (-1), No Range (-1/2), 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Hour (-1/4) ()

 

4 Lamplight: Change Environment (-4 to Normal Sight PER Rolls, Offsets Penalties), Area Of Effect (9m Radius Explosion; +1/4) (10 Active Points); OAF (-1), No Range (-1/2), 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Hour (-1/4) ()

 

4 Lanternlight: Change Environment (-4 to Normal Sight PER Rolls, Offsets Penalties), Area Of Effect (18m Radius Explosion; +1/2) (12 Active Points); OAF (-1), No Range (-1/2), 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Hour (-1/4) ()

 

But results in no differentiation between each level, even at the Active Point level. So, while it is cheaper, it's also not RAW. The Nightvision route is at least marginally RAW. I do agree that it is the more intuitive way to approach it.

 

The problem with AE Explosion on Nightvision or just Enhanced PER is that isn't allowed, hence the UOO route.

 

"d20 elements" meant using the definitions for light in d20/Pathfinder games.

 

Here's another stab at the UOO route:

 

4 Torchlight: Nightvision, Uncontrolled (Until expires or is extinguished; grants power to all who approach; +1/2), Usable Simultaneously (up to 8 people at once; +3/4), Recipient must remain close to Grantor, Grantor can take back power at any time (11 Active Points); OAF (-1), Time Limit (1 Hour; -3/4), Perceivable (Bright Light; -1/4)

 

Uncontrolled might be the way to address the issue of people walking into the area. So far that's more RAW than anything else besides Images.

 

4 Candlelight: Nightvision, Usable Simultaneously (up to 2 people at once; +1/4), Recipient must remain close to Grantor, Grantor can take back power at any time, Uncontrolled (Until expires or is extinguished; grants power to all who approach; +1/2) (9 Active Points); OAF (-1), Perceivable (Bright Light; -1/4), 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Hour (-1/4) ()

 

4 Torchlight: Nightvision, Uncontrolled (Until expires or is extinguished; grants power to all who approach; +1/2), Usable Simultaneously (up to 8 people at once; +3/4), Recipient must remain close to Grantor, Grantor can take back power at any time (11 Active Points); OAF (-1), Perceivable (Bright Light; -1/4), 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Hour (-1/4) ()

 

4 Lamplight: Nightvision, Usable Simultaneously (up to 4 people at once; +1/2), Recipient must remain close to Grantor, Grantor can take back power at any time, Uncontrolled (Until expires or is extinguished; grants power to all who approach; +1/2) (10 Active Points); OAF (-1), Perceivable (Bright Light; -1/4), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 6 Hours (-0) ()

 

6 Lanternlight: Nightvision, Uncontrolled (Until expires or is extinguished; grants power to all who approach; +1/2), Usable Simultaneously (up to 32 people at once; +1 1/4), Recipient must remain close to Grantor, Grantor can take back power at any time (14 Active Points); OAF (-1), Perceivable (Bright Light; -1/4), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 6 Hours (-0) ()

 

Still not a whole lot of differentiation. Images does give me differentiation, it's just more expensive than I would like.

 

I suppose I could make Light a "commodity effect" and apply a cost multiplier to it.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Create Light and the 17 Point Light Spell that isn't

 

Edit: MY biggest complaint in the Sensory Affecting Powers area (at least right now), frex: Images, is how I MUST BUY A SENSORY GROUP (as opposed to just the one specific sense you want)! It is really annoying, and jacks up the price unnecessarily. What if I want to create a light spell that JUST generates light at the normal visual spectrum (for humans at least)? If you want it to just have Normal Sight, the best I've done so far is to set the default group to Sight Group and then use a custom adder to reduce the cost to reflect the normal price of "Normal Sight." Gr.

 

I agree, and I do the same thing. It's just annoying.

 

4 Candle: Sight Group Images, +/-3 to PER Rolls, Normal Sight Only, Area Of Effect (2m Radius; +1/4); OAF (-1), Only To Create Light (-1), Easily Blown Out (-1), No Range (-1/2), 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Hour (-1/4) ()

6 Torch: Sight Group Images, +/-4 to PER Rolls, Normal Sight Only, Area Of Effect (12m Radius Explosion; +1/4); OAF (-1), Only To Create Light (-1), No Range (-1/2), 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Hour (-1/4) ()

7 Lamp: Sight Group Images, +/-4 to PER Rolls, Normal Sight Only, Area Of Effect (9m Radius Explosion; +1/4); OAF (-1), Only To Create Light (-1), No Range (-1/2), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 6 Hours (+1/4) ()

9 Lantern: Sight Group Images, +/-4 to PER Rolls, Normal Sight Only, Area Of Effect (18m Radius Explosion; +1/2); OAF (-1), Only To Create Light (-1), No Range (-1/2), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 6 Hours (+1/4) ()

[Lucius]

Re: Create Light and the 17 Point Light Spell that isn't

 

I've been doing some tinkering with light spells myself lately, and I am currently content with Images for that purpose. I didn't find it too expensive, but I am using a VPP so perhaps that makes the difference?

 

Well, while I think mudpyr8 has a point about the cost, my personal objection is that it just flatly doesn't make any sense. dmjalund put it better than I could:

 

I believe I have previously voiced my objectionsto using Images (only to create light) is like using entangle (only to cool drinks)

 

just as generating light is only one possible special effect for Images, just as ice is only one special effect of Entangle

 

Regardless, on reasoning from effect: If you want to see in the dark, then Night Vision makes sense. It is dark but you can still see...

 

However, if you want to "make it not dark so that I can see" then I'd say Images or Change Environment (or hell, maybe even Transform) would be a more logical result than Night Vision.

 

And if I make it so everyone in the area can see, what is the functional difference between that and light? For that matter, if you generate light, what are you doing if not making it so everyone can see? There's something to be said for Change Environment but the most logical choice in terms of reasoning from effect is Night Vision.

 

For that matter, "Make it so I can see in the dark" and "Make it not dark so I can see" strike me as simply a difference in Special Effects. You're accomplishing the same game effect - the difference being whether you're accomplishing it for just you, or for everyone else too.

 

Edit: MY biggest complaint in the Sensory Affecting Powers area (at least right now), frex: Images, is how I MUST BUY A SENSORY GROUP (as opposed to just the one specific sense you want)! It is really annoying, and jacks up the price unnecessarily. What if I want to create a light spell that JUST generates light at the normal visual spectrum (for humans at least)? If you want it to just have Normal Sight, the best I've done so far is to set the default group to Sight Group and then use a custom adder to reduce the cost to reflect the normal price of "Normal Sight." Gr.

 

I feel your pain. Also, I have JUST finished a character who used Change Environment to simulate a smoky cloud. I bought a -2 to Sight Group and then to Smell/Taste Group as well, and was irked that the latter cost as much as the former - even though the vast majority of characters rely on sight, and relatively few would be tracking him by smell. I could have just left that off...but it's a logical part of the power.

 

But even though we're making sense, let's get back to the lighter topic we started with...

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary finds the discussion enlightening

[Lucius]

Re: Create Light and the 17 Point Light Spell that isn't

 

Uncontrolled might be the way to address the issue of people walking into the area. So far that's more RAW than anything else besides Images.

 

And Images as the way to create light is only RAW by fiat, not because it's in any way an organic part of the game system.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Illuminating a palindromedary

[Lucius]

Re: Create Light and the 17 Point Light Spell that isn't

 

The problem with AE Explosion on Nightvision or just Enhanced PER is that isn't allowed, hence the UOO route.

 

It is allowed, once you have put the Usable On Others on it.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary reminds Lucius of a Power write up he's already done that may shed some light on the subject...

 

Ah, here it is. 5 Real Points. (probably too cheap for such an awesome power...)

 

Here Comes the Sun: Nightvision, 1 Continuing Charge lasting 12 Hours (approximate) (-0), Area Of Effect (1m Radius; +1/4), Usable Simultaneously (up to 2 people at once; +1/2), MegaScale (1m = 100,000 km; +2 1/4), Cannot alter scale (-1/4) (19 Active Points); Window of Opportunity Once/day; window remains open 1-2 minutes (-1), Perceivable (-1/2), Concentration (0 DCV; -1/2), Incantations (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4)

 

This ritual, which must be performed at dawn, enables the Sun to rise and begin His journey across the sky, casting a beneficent light upon the entire world for the duration of that journey.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Create Light and the 17 Point Light Spell that isn't

 

I think that about does it.

 

3 Candlelight: Nightvision, Usable Simultaneously (up to 2 people at once; +1/4), Recipient must remain close to Grantor, Grantor can take back power at any time, Area Of Effect (2m Radius Explosion; +1/4) (7 Active Points); OAF (-1), Perceivable (Bright Light; -1/4), 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Hour (-1/4) ()

4 Torchlight: Nightvision, Area Of Effect (12m Radius Explosion; +1/4), Usable Simultaneously (up to 8 people at once; +3/4), Recipient must remain close to Grantor, Grantor can take back power at any time (10 Active Points); OAF (-1), Perceivable (Bright Light; -1/4), 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Hour (-1/4) ()

4 Lamplight: Nightvision, Area Of Effect (9m Radius Explosion; +1/4), Usable Simultaneously (up to 4 people at once; +1/2), Recipient must remain close to Grantor, Grantor can take back power at any time (9 Active Points); OAF (-1), Perceivable (Bright Light; -1/4), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 6 Hours (-0) ()

6 Lanternlight: Nightvision, Area Of Effect (18m Radius Explosion; +1/2), Usable Simultaneously (up to 32 people at once; +1 1/4), Recipient must remain close to Grantor, Grantor can take back power at any time (14 Active Points); OAF (-1), Perceivable (Bright Light; -1/4), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 6 Hours (-0) ()

 

I like it. There is a point differential in both real and active. It's somewhat intuitive. It's also RAW as far as I can see.

 

Thanks for working through this with me - it's why I love this place. Big rep for you, Lucius.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Create Light and the 17 Point Light Spell that isn't

 

Here I altered the radii slightly to be easily divisible by 4 so there is a smooth progression in the diminishing light. I like it!

 

3 Candlelight: Nightvision, Increase PER penalty by -1 per 0.5m from center, Usable Simultaneously (up to 2 people at once; +1/4), Recipient must remain close to Grantor, Grantor can take back power at any time, Area Of Effect (2m Radius Explosion; +1/4) (7 Active Points); OAF (-1), Perceivable (Bright Light; -1/4), 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Hour (-1/4) ()

4 Torchlight: Nightvision, Increase PER penalty by -1 per 3m from center, Area Of Effect (12m Radius Explosion; +1/4), Usable Simultaneously (up to 8 people at once; +3/4), Recipient must remain close to Grantor, Grantor can take back power at any time (10 Active Points); OAF (-1), Perceivable (Bright Light; -1/4), 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Hour (-1/4) ()

4 Lamplight: Nightvision, Increase PER penalty by -1 per 2m from center, Area Of Effect (8m Radius Explosion; +1/4), Usable Simultaneously (up to 4 people at once; +1/2), Recipient must remain close to Grantor, Grantor can take back power at any time (9 Active Points); OAF (-1), Perceivable (Bright Light; -1/4), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 6 Hours (-0) ()

6 Lanternlight: Nightvision, Increase PER penalty by -1 per 5m from center, Area Of Effect (20m Radius Explosion; +1/2), Usable Simultaneously (up to 32 people at once; +1 1/4), Recipient must remain close to Grantor, Grantor can take back power at any time (14 Active Points); OAF (-1), Perceivable (Bright Light; -1/4), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 6 Hours (-0) ()

Multipower

[Escafarc]

Re: Create Light and the 17 Point Light Spell that isn't

 

The problem with using Nightvison is how far a person with it can see. They can see as far as if they were in daylight. That is far more powerful then a "torch" or "lantern' should allow at night.

[Lucius]

Re: Create Light and the 17 Point Light Spell that isn't

 

The problem with using Nightvison is how far a person with it can see. They can see as far as if they were in daylight. That is far more powerful then a "torch" or "lantern' should allow at night.

 

You're absolutely right. I think I addressed this problem, among others, earlier.

 

That IS a problem. I suggest a Limitation (not proposing a value yet) that will cover "is a light." This will cover the radius of effect issue (i.e. you can't see past a certain point) and the fact that others can easily see YOU if you're holding the light (you can't see the Goblin/thief/whatever lurking at the other end of the dark corridor, but they sure know where YOU are standing in that pool of light) and the fact that the effects are basically out of your control - you can't deny the benefit of light to your enemies, but you also don't have to worry that your ally arriving late to the party will somehow be blind despite standing now in the same circle of light you're in.

 

In other words, a Limitation that says (perhaps among other things) "Look, the Radius Advantage is there to define the range of the light."

 

By the way, something occurs to me about Utech's solution and mudpyr8's objection:

 

If we're going to invent a new Power, we get to set the cost. I don't think it has to be as expensive as mudpyr8 thinks.

 

edit: never mind

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wonders about Create Heavy

[Utech]

Re: Create Light and the 17 Point Light Spell that isn't

 

By the way, something occurs to me about Utech's solution and mudpyr8's objection:

 

If we're going to invent a new Power, we get to set the cost. I don't think it has to be as expensive as mudpyr8 thinks.

 

Just so. If a new Light Power ought to cost 1 point and that's it, that's what it will cost. As I explained in the post sketching in a Light Power, I just tossed some numbers in there. Frankly, I think the new Power is a lot simpler than all the backflips I've seen so far to do something quite simple.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Create Light and the 17 Point Light Spell that isn't

 

*sigh* I guess I will be beaten into submission and accept images as the way to go.

 

Any arguments for "Only to Create Light" being more of a -2 limitation? I think this is a case of "Power loses almost all of its overall

effectiveness" rather than half of its effectiveness. I mean, Images is used to create a perceivable object, capable of movement and much more. Simply illuminating the area seems to be but a fraction of that effect.

 

That does get Images down to more manageable point levels.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Create Light and the 17 Point Light Spell that isn't

 

So, I'm putting together a standard Lighting file to keep track of these types of decisions. Here's what I have so far, establishing that "Only to Create Light" is a -2 lim, and that you can buy Normal Sight Only rather than Sight Group for images (using a custom adder at -5 points).

 

3 Candle: Sight Group Images, +/-3 to PER Rolls, Increase Sight PER penalty by -1 per 0.7m from center, Normal Sight Only, Area Of Effect (2m Radius Explosion; +1/4); Only to Create Light (-2), OAF (-1), Easily Blown Out (-1), No Range (-1/2), 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Hour (-1/4) - END=[1 cc]

 

4 Torch: Sight Group Images, +/-3 to PER Rolls, Increase Sight PER penalty by -1 per 4m from center, Normal Sight Only, Area Of Effect (12m Radius Explosion; +1/4); Only to Create Light (-2), OAF (-1), No Range (-1/2), 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Hour (-1/4) - END=[1 cc]

 

5 Lamp: Sight Group Images, +/-3 to PER Rolls, Increase Sight PER penalty by -1 per 3m from center, Normal Sight Only, Area Of Effect (9m Radius Explosion; +1/4); Only to Create Light (-2), OAF (-1), No Range (-1/2), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 6 Hours (+1/4) - END=[1 cc]

 

5 Lantern: Sight Group Images, +/-3 to PER Rolls, Increase Sight PER penalty by -1 per 6m from center, Normal Sight Only, Area Of Effect (18m Radius Explosion; +1/2); Only to Create Light (-2), OAF (-1), No Range (-1/2), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 3 Hours (+1/4) - END=[1 cc]

 

5 Flashlight: Sight Group Images, +/-4 to PER Rolls, Normal Sight Only; Only to Create Light (-2), OAF (-1), Limited Range (85m; -1/4), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 6 Hours (+1/4) - END=[1 cc]

 

6 Flashlight, Bright: Sight Group Images, +/-4 to PER Rolls, Normal Sight Only, Increased Maximum Range (170m; +0); Only to Create Light (-2), OAF (-1), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 1 Day (+1/2) - END=[1 cc]

 

6 Flashlight, Superbright: Sight Group Images, +/-4 to PER Rolls, Normal Sight Only, Increased Maximum Range (340m; +1/4); Only to Create Light (-2), OAF (-1), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 6 Hours (+1/4) - END=[1 cc]

 

5 Lantern, Solar Powered: Sight Group Images, +/-3 to PER Rolls, Increase Sight PER penalty by -1 per 3m from center, Normal Sight Only, Area Of Effect (9m Radius Explosion; +1/4); Only to Create Light (-2), OAF (-1), No Range (-1/2), Real Item (Batteries need replacement after 2 years/100,000hrs of use; -1/4), 1 Recoverable Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 10 Hours (Recovers Under Limited Circumstances; 1 hour of sunlight = 2 hours of battery; +1/2) - END=[1 rc]

 

7 Create Light Spell: Sight Group Images, +/-3 to PER Rolls, Increase Sight PER penalty by -1 per 4m from center, Normal Sight Only, Area Of Effect (12m Radius Explosion; +1/4), Costs Endurance Only To Activate (+1/4), Time Limit (20 Minutes; +1); Only to Create Light (-2), OIF (Object of Opportunity; -1/2), No Range (-1/2), Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) - END=3

 

I threw modern stuff in there too as I wanted to have a baseline for flashlights and, of course, a solar powered lamp for post apocalyptic games. I got most of my data from maglite and then fudged a little to fit.

 

Images does work well for flashlights since you are illuminating just a 1mr, but I supposed CE would also accomplish that.

 

Any critiques beyond the obvious "you used images, you daft git"?

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Create Light and the 17 Point Light Spell that isn't

 

Oh, and yes you can keep casting the Light spell every 20 minutes (a pattern established in the new Pathfinder rules and one I happen to like and that is now easy to build in Hero). But if the party relies solely on the mage for light, that gives you nice 20 minute intervals in which to eat the mage.