Create Light and the 17 Point Light Spell that isn't

[Lucius]

Re: Create Light and the 17 Point Light Spell that isn't

 

*sigh* I guess I will be beaten into submission and accept images as the way to go.

 

I can't imagine why.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Really, sometimes I don't notice until the palindromedary points it out.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Create Light and the 17 Point Light Spell that isn't

 

How do the modifiers work? Well, the RAW rule is that if you have a 0 or positive PER modifier, you don't need to make a roll. Moving objects grant +1, High Contrast objects grant +1. A goblin moving within the area of effect of a light effect I would say gets both mods (he is lit up at a shallower depth than the darkness behind him). So, even a +3 PER mod from Images will allow you to see the target without a roll. Even in the second ring you are at +0. The third ring however you would have to make a roll at -1 to target him. of course, if you spent a 1/2 phase to track all targets in the area (1/2 phase to perceive), that gets you back at +0.

 

I know a lot of GMs would probably be annoyed at this level of detail (and about half of my players too, the other half likes this stuff). I always like to look at the rules in this way, make sure that the approach is sustainable within the rules, and then just say, "A torch allows you to target anything out to it's radius. Discerning fine detail, such as insignias, recognizing specific individuals and such will require a roll, but you can fight without penalty).

 

Living out in the country, in the woods no less, there are nights when it is black. We finished a session once, in which we had a discussion about darkness, and after the game (about 3am) we went outside and did some testing with various light sources. Based on that experience (and others) I can say that the write-ups I've made jive well enough that I hope to not have to think through this anymore. But, of course, I love this type of thing.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Create Light and the 17 Point Light Spell that isn't

 

The PER modifier on the images power are used to determine if the Image is fake; seeing through the illusion, as it were. That's not an issue given the special effect of the power, as nobody's going to try to say it's not a real light, so there's no need to expend points on the PER modifier.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Create Light and the 17 Point Light Spell that isn't

 

Well' date=' while I think mudpyr8 has a point about the cost, my personal objection is that it just flatly doesn't make any sense.[/quote']

 

But you see, that is my difficulty. I don't see WHY it "just doesn't make sense." I haven't delved into the innards of HERO as many here have, I readily to acknowledge my ignorance of HERO's many quirks, but that means that a long established "known" such as why Images is the suxorz escapes me.

 

 

 

 

And if I make it so everyone in the area can see, what is the functional difference between that and light?

Significant. See below.

 

For that matter, if you generate light, what are you doing if not making it so everyone can see? There's something to be said for Change Environment but the most logical choice in terms of reasoning from effect is Night Vision.

 

Except it's not, it's the opposite of that.

 

Night Vision says it's all about making people able to see IN THE DARK. Enabling sight by illuminating the darkness is an entirely different planet. Creating light means creating shadows, temporarily blinding anyone who looks directly at it with night adjusted eyes, it means being visible for a significant distance in the dark (even as just a bright speck of light off in the distance), it means that powers that have the Limitation "Only Work in the Dark" or "Does not Work in Bright Light" no longer function, it creates a potentially confusing visual situation as the light and or people shift around causing the shadows to flicker and things to appear and disappear, it means that if the light suddenly goes out that everyone will be effectively (VERY) blind.... unless they have Night Vision, which would be a very clever strategy.

 

For that matter, "Make it so I can see in the dark" and "Make it not dark so I can see" strike me as simply a difference in Special Effects. You're accomplishing the same game effect - the difference being whether you're accomplishing it for just you, or for everyone else too.

 

I submit, as I believe I have demonstrated above, that they are entirely different effects.

 

 

I feel your pain. Also, I have JUST finished a character who used Change Environment to simulate a smoky cloud. I bought a -2 to Sight Group and then to Smell/Taste Group as well, and was irked that the latter cost as much as the former - even though the vast majority of characters rely on sight, and relatively few would be tracking him by smell. I could have just left that off...but it's a logical part of the power.

 

I thought Smell/Taste were Nontargetting (by default) and thus would cost less?

[Lucius]

Re: Create Light and the 17 Point Light Spell that isn't

 

But you see, that is my difficulty. I don't see WHY it "just doesn't make sense."

 

Can you explain to me why you think it does make sense? I'd honestly like to see your thinking.

 

I haven't delved into the innards of HERO as many here have, I readily to acknowledge my ignorance of HERO's many quirks, but that means that a long established "known" such as why Images is the suxorz escapes me.

 

Well, I already quoted dmjalund:

 

I believe I have previously voiced my objections to using Images (only to create light) is like using entangle (only to cool drinks)

 

just as generating light is only one possible special effect for Images, just as ice is only one special effect of Entangle

 

It's fundamentally arbitrary. Why Images? It could just as easily be, say, Blast. After all, energy blasts often give off light as a special effect and sometimes the Blast itself might BE a beam of coherent light. Or you could pick Flash, which often has “bright light” as a special effect, and that would make more sense than Images. If a light source is very strong, it likely can in fact temporarily blind you, the basic game effect of Flash. If it's logically going to have that effect, maybe it should be built that way.

 

Crosshair Collie said something very pertinent to this:

 

The PER modifier on the images power are used to determine if the Image is fake; seeing through the illusion' date=' as it were. That's not an issue given the special effect of the power, as nobody's going to try to say it's not a real light, so there's no need to expend points on the PER modifier.[/quote']

 

“nobody's going to try to say it's not a real light” because it IS a real light, not an illusion of one. But Images is the power specifically to create illusions. Casting light in the darkness will show you what's really there (or at least what's really visible) – doesn't it seem odd to simulate that with a power intended to show what ISN”T really there?

 

Hm, he may have hit on why mudpyr8 complains so much about the cost, if he's spending points on stuff he doesn't need that will inflate the cost of using Images....

 

Significant. See below.

 

I asked what was the functional difference.

 

Creating light means creating shadows, temporarily blinding anyone who looks directly at it with night adjusted eyes, it means being visible for a significant distance in the dark (even as just a bright speck of light off in the distance), it means that powers that have the Limitation "Only Work in the Dark" or "Does not Work in Bright Light" no longer function, it creates a potentially confusing visual situation as the light and or people shift around causing the shadows to flicker and things to appear and disappear, it means that if the light suddenly goes out that everyone will be effectively (VERY) blind.... unless they have Night Vision, which would be a very clever strategy.

 

What you're talking about, with the possible exception of “temporarily blinding anyone,” is Special Effects. Look again at what you've written and ask yourself why any of it would not apply to Images to just the same degree as it does to Nightvision. I certainly don't think Images is the power you'd use to temporarily blind someone. If anything, you're making an argument that the base Power should be Flash.

 

Everything you're describing is simply the consequence of having a light. Some of it's the consequence specifically of having a small, portable light such as flashlight or torch, perhaps even more especially of natural flame light sources like candles and lanterns that are especially given to causing the shadows to flicker etc. In short, you've just described what a Power that creates light – ANY Power that creates light – will do.

 

If you build a light Power with Images, then you will be

creating shadows, temporarily blinding anyone who looks directly at it with night adjusted eyes, it means being visible for a significant distance in the dark (even as just a bright speck of light off in the distance), it means that powers that have the Limitation "Only Work in the Dark" or "Does not Work in Bright Light" no longer function, it creates a potentially confusing visual situation as the light and or people shift around causing the shadows to flicker and things to appear and disappear, it means that if the light suddenly goes out that everyone will be effectively (VERY) blind.... unless they have Night Vision, which would be a very clever strategy.

 

If you build a light Power with Blast (after all, being hit with a torch hurts and even a candle can burn you or cause a fire) then you will be

creating shadows, temporarily blinding anyone who looks directly at it with night adjusted eyes, it means being visible for a significant distance in the dark (even as just a bright speck of light off in the distance), it means that powers that have the Limitation "Only Work in the Dark" or "Does not Work in Bright Light" no longer function, it creates a potentially confusing visual situation as the light and or people shift around causing the shadows to flicker and things to appear and disappear, it means that if the light suddenly goes out that everyone will be effectively (VERY) blind.... unless they have Night Vision, which would be a very clever strategy.

 

If you build a light Power with Flash (after all, all but the weakest lights can conceivably blind someone for a Segment or two) then you will be

creating shadows, temporarily blinding anyone who looks directly at it with night adjusted eyes, it means being visible for a significant distance in the dark (even as just a bright speck of light off in the distance), it means that powers that have the Limitation "Only Work in the Dark" or "Does not Work in Bright Light" no longer function, it creates a potentially confusing visual situation as the light and or people shift around causing the shadows to flicker and things to appear and disappear, it means that if the light suddenly goes out that everyone will be effectively (VERY) blind.... unless they have Night Vision, which would be a very clever strategy.

 

And if you create a light Power with Nightvision, then you will be

creating shadows, temporarily blinding anyone who looks directly at it with night adjusted eyes, it means being visible for a significant distance in the dark (even as just a bright speck of light off in the distance), it means that powers that have the Limitation "Only Work in the Dark" or "Does not Work in Bright Light" no longer function, it creates a potentially confusing visual situation as the light and or people shift around causing the shadows to flicker and things to appear and disappear, it means that if the light suddenly goes out that everyone will be effectively (VERY) blind.... unless they have Night Vision, which would be a very clever strategy.

 

And again, the same with Change Environment, or with Utech's suggestion of creating a new Power.

 

These elements you mention will always be there because they are not implied by the underlying Power but by the Special Effects used to define that Power in the game world. Changing the base Power you use doesn't make them go away. The fundamental effect of creating light, the effect that we reason from, is “People can see now.”

 

I submit, as I believe I have demonstrated above, that they are entirely different effects.

 

Not at all. What you've done is give a list of possible effects of having a light source. The basic, important effect of having a light source remains being able to see; the effects you list (with, as I've said, the possible exception of temporary blindness) are just what's going to happen when you have that kind of light source, however it's defined mechanically.

 

Even Utech's Light Power doesn't necessarily imply the specific special effects you mention; just as a Darkness Power could be used to create a silence field to block hearing, the Light Power could be used to create a conductive medium in a vacuum to enable hearing, or a diffusive medium to enable smell or other chemical senses. (Probably linked with Life Support; if you're filling a vacuum with a gas it might as well be one you can breathe.)

 

 

edit: actually, Life Support may be a useful illustration here. If you want a zombie or robot that does not breathe, you use Life Support: Self Contained Breathing. If you want a spell creating a bubble of breathable air underwater, or oxygen tanks for a spacesuit, again you use Life Support: Self Contained Breathing.

 

"This Power means you don't need to breathe air" and "This Power means you have air to breathe" strike me as pretty parallel to "This Power means you don't need light to see" and "This Power means you have light to see by." The first pair can obviously be special effects of the same Power. So can the second pair.

 

 

 

I thought Smell/Taste were Nontargetting (by default) and thus would cost less?

 

Look up Change Environment. Penalties to Perception rolls cost the same, regardless of which Sense or Sense Group they apply to.

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary has one more suggestion: define create light as Dispel Vs Darkness.

[dmjalund]

Re: Create Light and the 17 Point Light Spell that isn't

 

My two suggestions are these:

1) Aid Intelligence, only to increase per roll

2) Growth useable as attack, only to make target more visible

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Create Light and the 17 Point Light Spell that isn't

 

Good discussions all around. I like the thinking a lot. Lucius - great job sorting through and examining the options as presented. Very, very helpful.

 

I'm going to focus on the whole Images PER bonus thing because that is something that I had thought of way back when this was first proposed years ago and then stuffed away never to be thought of again. The fact that someone brings up that spectre reinforces that my gut reaction felt right then and feels right now.

 

6E1 238 talks about easily perceived images and uses a megaphone as an example. This is actually perfect - it's not as if a base image isn't perceivable, just that you can make it louder. In the absence of sound, creating a +0 PER sound is normal and effective and fills the area with sound.

 

The same would be true of light. Now, to create a lighthouse that can be seen for miles, would be where you use the +PER bonus. Lights would also get the High Contrast bonuses (+1 to +5) to PER mods to, essentially, offset the range penalties to perceive them but that doesn't fill those areas in between with light.

 

That's Images with AE.

 

So, here we go... is this it? Is this the final?

Cost  	Power	END
1  	Candle: Sight Group Images, Darkness penalties: 0-1m -0, 1-2m -1, 2-4m -2, Normal Sight Only, Area Of Effect (4m Radius Explosion; +1/4) (6 Active Points); OAF (-1), Easily Blown Out (-1), Only To Create Light (-1), No Range (-1/2), Extra Time (Full Phase, Only to Activate, To light; Half Phase to snuff; -1/4), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 1 Hour (-0), Side Effects (Side Effect always occurs whenever the character does some specific act; Real Fire; -0) [Notes: 1 BODY, 0 PD/ED; Causes 0-1 Killing Damage (1d6-5) and then is snuffed out.] 	[1 cc]
1  	Torch: Sight Group Images, Darkness penalties: 0-4m -0, 4-8m -1, 8-12m -2, Normal Sight Only, Area Of Effect (12m Radius Explosion; +1/4) (6 Active Points); OAF (-1), Only To Create Light (-1), No Range (-1/2), Extra Time (Full Phase, Only to Activate, To light; Half Phase to snuff; -1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 1 Hour (-0), Side Effects (Side Effect always occurs whenever the character does some specific act; Real Fire; -0) [Notes: 2 BODY, 3 PD/ED. Torch can be used as a club doing HA +2d6. The flame can cause 1/2d6 Killing Damage, but then is snuffed out. It is possible to strike with the flaming end to do both club and flame damage (still snuffing out the flame). ] 	[1 cc]
2  	Lantern, Hooded: Sight Group Images, Darkness penalties: 0-2m -0, 2-4m -1, 4-6m -2, Normal Sight Only, Area Of Effect (6m Radius Explosion; +1/4) (7 Active Points); OAF (-1), Only To Create Light (-1), No Range (-1/2), Side Effects (Side Effect always occurs if broken; Real Oil-Based Fire; -1/4), Extra Time (Full Phase, Only to Activate, Half Phase to extinguish; -1/4), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 6 Hours (1/2 liter of oil; +1/4) [Notes: 2 BODY, 3 PD/ED. The lantern can be used as a club doing HA +1d6 damage (STR Min 5; max damage is 5d6), however the lantern takes any damage it causes and can break. Breaking a lantern may ignite (11-) all of the oil doing 1d6 Killing Damage in a radius based on the amount of oil left in the lantern (1-2 hours = 0.25m, 3-4 hours = 0.5m, 5-6 hours = 2m) and burns for 1 turn. Any object that takes BODY damage (after defenses) ignites and burns for an additional 1d6 Killing Damage at the end of the next segment if not extinguished.] 	[1 cc]
2  	Lantern, Bullseye: Sight Group Images, Darkness penalties: 0-6m -0, 6-12m -1, 12-18m -2, Normal Sight Only, Area Of Effect (18m Cone Explosion; +1/2), Thin Cone (-1/4) (7 Active Points); OAF (-1), Only To Create Light (-1), No Range (-1/2), Extra Time (Full Phase, Only to Activate, Half Phase to extinguish; -1/4), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 6 Hours (1/2 liter of oil; +1/4) [Notes: 2 BODY, 3 PD/ED. The lantern can be used as a club doing HA +1d6 damage (STR Min 5; max damage is 5d6), however the lantern takes any damage it causes and can break. Breaking a lantern may ignite (11-) all of the oil doing 1d6 Killing Damage in a radius based on the amount of oil left in the lantern (1-2 hours = 0.25m, 3-4 hours = 0.5m, 5-6 hours = 2m) and burns for 1 turn. Any object that takes BODY damage (after defenses) ignites and burns for an additional 1d6 Killing Damage at the end of the next segment if not extinguished.] 	[1 cc]
4  	Lantern, Storm: Sight Group Images, +/-1 to PER Rolls, Darkness penalties: 0-6m -0, 6-12m -1, 12-18m -2, Normal Sight Only, Area Of Effect (18m Radius Explosion; +1/2) (14 Active Points); OAF (-1), Only To Create Light (-1), No Range (-1/2), Extra Time (Full Phase, Only to Activate, Half Phase to extinguish; -1/4), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 6 Hours (1 liter of oil; +1/4) [Notes: 3 BODY, 4 PD/ED. This reinforced lantern can be used as a club doing HA +2d6 damage (STR Min 7; max damage is 7d6), however the lantern takes any damage it causes and can break. Breaking a lantern may ignite (11-) all of the oil doing 1d6 Killing Damage in a radius based on the amount of oil left in the lantern (1-2 hours = 0.5m, 3-4 hours = 1m, 5-6 hours = 3m) and burns for 1 turn. Any object that takes BODY damage (after defenses) ignites and burns for an additional 1d6 Killing Damage at the end of the next segment if not extinguished.] 	[1 cc]

10  	Torch: Multipower, 26-point reserve, all slots Side Effects (Side Effect always occurs whenever the character does some specific act; Real Fire; -0); all slots OAF (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4), STR Minimum 5 (-1/4) [Notes: 2 BODY, 3 PD/ED] 	
1f  	1) Torchlight: Sight Group Images, Increase Sight PER penalty by -1 per 3m from center, Normal Sight Only, Area Of Effect (12m Radius Explosion; +1/4) (6 Active Points); OAF (-1), Only To Create Light (-1), No Range (-1/2), Extra Time (Full Phase, Only to Activate, To light; Half Phase to snuff; -1/4), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 1 Hour (-0) 	[1 cc]
1f  	2) Club: HA +2d6; Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/4) 	1
1f  	3) Flame: RKA 1/2d6; 1 Recoverable Charge (Striking with flame snuffs the flame; -1 1/4), No Range (-1/2) 	[1 rc]
7  	Torch: Sight Group Images, Increase Sight PER penalty by -1 per 3m from center, Normal Sight Only, Area Of Effect (12m Radius Explosion; +1/4) (6 Active Points); OAF (-1), Only To Create Light (-1), No Range (-1/2), Extra Time (Full Phase, Only to Activate, To light; Half Phase to snuff; -1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4), STR Minimum 5 (-1/4), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 1 Hour (-0), Side Effects (Side Effect always occurs whenever the character does some specific act; Real Fire; -0) plus HA +2d6; OAF (-1), Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4), STR Minimum 5 (-1/4), Side Effects (Side Effect always occurs whenever the character does some specific act; Real Fire; -0) plus RKA 1/2d6; 1 Recoverable Charge (Striking with flame snuffs the flame; -1 1/4), OAF (-1), No Range (-1/2), Linked (Torchlight; -1/4), STR Minimum 5 (-1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4), Side Effects (Side Effect always occurs whenever the character does some specific act; Real Fire; -0) [Notes: 2 BODY, 3 PD/ED. Torch can be used as a club doing HA +2d6. The flame can cause 1/2d6 Killing Damage, but then is snuffed out. It is possible to strike with the flaming end to do both club and flame damage (still snuffing out the flame). ] 	1

2  	Flashlight: Sight Group Images, Normal Sight Only, Increased Maximum Range (50m; +0) (6 Active Points); OAF (-1), Only To Create Light (-1), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 6 Hours (+1/4) 	[1 cc]
5  	Flashlight, Bright: Sight Group Images, +/-2 to PER Rolls, Normal Sight Only, Increased Maximum Range (110m; +0) (16 Active Points); OAF (-1), Only To Create Light (-1), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 1 Day (+1/2) 	[1 cc]
8  	Flashlight, Superbright: Sight Group Images, +/-4 to PER Rolls, Normal Sight Only, Increased Maximum Range (340m; +1/4) (25 Active Points); OAF (-1), Only To Create Light (-1), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 6 Hours (+1/4) 	[1 cc]
2  	Lantern, Solar Powered: Sight Group Images, Increase Sight PER penalty by -1 per 3m from center, Normal Sight Only, Area Of Effect (9m Radius Explosion; +1/4) (9 Active Points); OAF (-1), Only To Create Light (-1), No Range (-1/2), Real Item (Batteries need replacement after 2 years/100,000hrs of use; -1/4), 1 Recoverable Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 10 Hours (Recovers Under Limited Circumstances; 1 hour of sunlight = 2 hours of battery; +1/2) 	[1 rc]

3  	Create Light Spell: Sight Group Images, Darkness penalties: 0-5m -0, 5-10m -1, 10-15m -2, Normal Sight Only, Area Of Effect (15m Radius Explosion; +1/4), Costs Endurance Only To Activate (+1/4), Time Limit (20 Minutes; +1) (12 Active Points); Only To Create Light (-1), OIF (Object of Opportunity; -1/2), No Range (-1/2), Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) 	1

1  	Campfire: Sight Group Images, Darkness penalties: 0-8m -0, 8-16m -1, 16-24m -2, Normal Sight Only, Area Of Effect (24m Radius Explosion; +1/2) (9 Active Points); OAF Immobile (-2), Only To Create Light (-1), Extra Time (1 Minute, Only to Activate, Once built, Full Phase to light; Full Phase to extinguish; -3/4), No Range (-1/2), Requires A Roll (Survival roll; -1/2), Side Effects (Side Effect always occurs whenever the character does some specific act; Real Fire; -1/4), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 3 Hours (1 bundle of wood; +1/4) [Notes: 2 BODY, 3 PD/ED. Characters can reduce the illumination radius to 1/4 normal by building in a pit or some other shielding method. Someone thrown into a fire will take 1-2d6 Killing Damage every 3 segments, depending on how hot or large the fire is. As a guide, start with 1d6 for a new fire and add +1 DC for each half hour of burn time, once you get to 2d6K then subtract -1 DC for each half hour of burn time. In other words, new = 1d6, stoking = 1d6+1 to 1 1/2d6, full burn with hot coals (about 1.5 hrs in) = 2d6, dying = 1 1/2d6 to 1d6+1, dwindling = 1d6 and fading -1 DC per 1/2 hour thereafter offering no light just heat and the possiblity to reignite the fire.] 	[1 cc]

 

One of the things I have been trying to do lately is to select builds that are as RAW as possible and jive with the published material. You see, I'm a bit of a Hero evangelist and when I steer people towards the game I like them to be able to grab books and use them. That doesn't necessarily jive with some of the stuff we have, and Narosia is very much a "I'm going to do it the way the campaign needs it" type setting, but there is so much great material that it is very frustrating for newbies to pick up a book and then come to the boards only to discover that us grognards don't do it that way (although everyone is very helpful so that's at least good).

 

Anyway, I pulled out my copy of Fantasy Hero and looked up the lighting section. Interestingly enough the lighting gear has no detail on the equipment list, and the write-up on FH 415-416 simply talks about the effects of lighting without any reference to specific powers. This actually makes it easier to associate with just the base Images power.

 

I threw in a build of the Torch as a multipower because it can technically be a functional weapon. The tricky part was that it can actually use all three of its powers simultaneously. I also built it as a compound power which may be more appropriate, but technically you can't choose to not hit someone with the flaming end in that case whereas in the multipower you can.

 

I added some other lims like "Real Weapon" and "Side Effects: Real Fire" as if you aren't careful you can set things on fire.

 

I also added the effects of what happens when you break a lantern, since that was detailed in the book.

 

I'm feeling pretty good about the completeness of this, not to mention the low cost of many of the effects including the Create Light Spell at 12 active and 3 real points. That very much works for me.

 

The last bit was the campfire, not so much as an object as it was detailed in the book so I thought it would be handy to build it out in the same way.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Create Light and the 17 Point Light Spell that isn't

 

....I just spent 40 minutes typing up a detailed response and it was all lost "because the token expired." Annoyed. And yet I am going to do it all over again.

 

 

Well, I already quoted dmjalund:

 

I saw that, but the analogy was flawed and didn't work and I figured it could have been a mistake so why not just ask for the issue directly rather than dwell on that. In short, the analogy was a false analogy that utilized a different relationship than the one at hand, and it got the relationship backwards. The analogy offered focuses on how creating light is only one potential SFX of Images, just as ice is only one potential SFX for Entangle. That is not the issue here; no one disputes that Images can have many SFX. Therefore, it is not analogous. Furthermore, the relationship in question is whether one particular Power is the only (or perhaps just most) appropriate way to create a particular Real/Mechanical Effect (as opposed to SFX), not that a Power (Entangle) can be used in multiple ways. A more accurate analogy would have been that while Entangle is the appropriate power to represent restraining someone (via ice, mystical bonds, handcuffs, being encased in living stone, wrapped up in vines, etc), it is not the only Power which can have a tangential effect. For instance, if you want to model the car crash goop from Demolition Man (when a car is about to wreck, the occupants are quickly covered in a liquid/foam which rapidly hardens around them to protect them, but requires force to break out of), you could make an argument for an Entangle with lots of PD, or perhaps Barrier instead (with appropriate Lims). That is much more relevant to the idea that Images does not possess a monopoly on enabling people to see, just like Entangle might not possess a monopoly on restraining one’s ability to move.

 

 

It's fundamentally arbitrary.

Perhaps you’re right. See below. I will note, however, that given that these are rules meant for modeling reality and are imperfect by their very nature, at some level it’s all arbitrary. You try to make it make as much sense as possible, but if something doesn’t quite fit…. How far down the rabbit hole do you go? How many rules and subrules do you create? This is an aside, really, that has only a small substantive impact on the discussion at hand, but an important one.

Why Images? It could just as easily be, say, Blast. After all, energy blasts often give off light as a special effect and sometimes the Blast itself might BE a beam of coherent light. Or you could pick Flash, which often has “bright light” as a special effect, and that would make more sense than Images. If a light source is very strong, it likely can in fact temporarily blind you, the basic game effect of Flash. If it's logically going to have that effect, maybe it should be built that way.

Here I disagree with your examples, which seem disingenuous. There is nothing that requires or even suggests that a Blast power should have a SFX of light or lasers or even energy (you actually shifted from Blast to “energy blast”). That’s why they changed the name of the power from Energy Blast to Blast because there is no necessary relationship. A Blast can be energy, ice, a baseball, a gust of wind, whatever. The same is true for Flash: while I might allow a PC to be able to get a glimpse of what is around him if he is not looking at the Flash when it goes off, it makes no sense to use it as a sustained source that enables people to see since the entire purpose of the power is to render a particular sense temporarily ineffective. Additionally, I would increase the penalty of darkness modifiers after the Flash since his night vision would have been ruined by the sudden saturation of light. So these Powers make LESS sense than Nightvision for the purpose of JUST reducing darkness penalties.

 

Crosshair Collie said something very pertinent to this……“nobody's going to try to say it's not a real light” because it IS a real light, not an illusion of one. But Images is the power specifically to create illusions. Casting light in the darkness will show you what's really there (or at least what's really visible) – doesn't it seem odd to simulate that with a power intended to show what ISN”T really there?

Agreed. That IS very pertinent, and now I need to go back and look at my builds to decide if I should really have those PER modifiers to represent how bright the light is. It does also suggest that Images is not entirely coherent as a power that reduces darkness penalties.

 

I asked what was the functional difference…..What you're talking about, with the possible exception of “temporarily blinding anyone,” is Special Effects. Look again at what you've written and ask yourself why any of it would not apply to Images to just the same degree as it does to Nightvision. I certainly don't think Images is the power you'd use to temporarily blind someone. If anything, you're making an argument that the base Power should be Flash.

I reread what I wrote in light of what you’ve said here, and I’ve concluded that you’re right; excluding your exception. The temporary blindness is a logical result of the interaction of SFX and environment and should just be a given. I like clever uses of abilities and it is ridiculous to try to model every potential usage of a Power. Whatever the Power is, common sense dictates that suddenly being exposed to light when you’re starting in the dark can result in a temporary disorientation due to light blindness. That does not equal an argument in favor of Flash, however, anymore than the fact that my fire Blast which can set a paper factory on fire should instead be a super-charged Change Environment rather than Blast.

 

Everything you're describing is simply the consequence of having a light. Some of it's the consequence specifically of having a small, portable light such as flashlight or torch, perhaps even more especially of natural flame light sources like candles and lanterns that are especially given to causing the shadows to flicker etc. In short, you've just described what a Power that creates light – ANY Power that creates light – will do.

Agreed. However, I would like to again note that there IS a substantive distance between “reducing darkness penalties” and “making people able to see.” I think they are mechanically distinct. What happens if you give Nightvision to a person who has the Complication: Blind? You’re giving them a functional sense, so they should then be able to see. This is significantly different than just reducing darkness penalties.

 

And again, the same with Change Environment, or with Utech's suggestion of creating a new Power.

See below, but in short I think one of these two options is the best.

 

Even Utech's Light Power doesn't necessarily imply the specific special effects you mention; just as a Darkness Power could be used to create a silence field to block hearing, the Light Power could be used to create a conductive medium in a vacuum to enable hearing, or a diffusive medium to enable smell or other chemical senses. (Probably linked with Life Support; if you're filling a vacuum with a gas it might as well be one you can breathe.)

Agreed

 

 

edit: actually, Life Support may be a useful illustration here. If you want a zombie or robot that does not breathe, you use Life Support: Self Contained Breathing. If you want a spell creating a bubble of breathable air underwater, or oxygen tanks for a spacesuit, again you use Life Support: Self Contained Breathing.

"This Power means you don't need to breathe air" and "This Power means you have air to breathe" strike me as pretty parallel to "This Power means you don't need light to see" and "This Power means you have light to see by." The first pair can obviously be special effects of the same Power. So can the second pair.

Now THIS is a functional, strong, persuasive analogy. Probably better than the one I provided at the top.

 

 

Look up Change Environment. Penalties to Perception rolls cost the same, regardless of which Sense or Sense Group they apply to.

I’m sorry, I was so focused on Images that I forgot that you said Change Environment.

 

The palindromedary has one more suggestion: define create light as Dispel Vs Darkness.

That might have potential.

 

This isn’t as eloquent as the last time I wrote this, but in short: you’ve convinced me. Images is kind of screwy for this. It’s not entirely logical or cohesive. However, I still think Nightvision is inappropriate. In fact, if anything, you’ve persuaded me that Nightvision should be eliminated, or at the very least the Senses need a significant overhaul.

I can see Transform, Summon, even Dispel potentially for the modeling the effect that RAW says Images is appropriate for…. But I think the best would be to toss it to Change Environment. Change Environment can already model negatives to PER due to environmental circumstances. It has a Wind Table/Chart. Why not just have a Luminosity Chart/Table linked to Change Environment the exact same way? Also, perhaps Images could be renamed “Sensory Input” and there could be a cost divide between “real” sensory input and “false” sensory input. It could be the difference between, say, the ability to project your voice across distances (the voice really IS there, it’s really affecting the world around it, etc) versus an illusion/hallucination.

 

 

Whew. I hope this turned out ok....

[Lucius]

Re: Create Light and the 17 Point Light Spell that isn't

 

 

So, here we go... is this it? Is this the final?

 

Final for you? That's up to you.

 

Final for everyone else? Probably not, but that's no reflection on your solutions.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary notes that the U.S. Constitution was ratified over a hundred years ago, and some of us are still fighting about some of its provisions...

[Lucius]

Re: Create Light and the 17 Point Light Spell that isn't

 

....I just spent 40 minutes typing up a detailed response and it was all lost "because the token expired." Annoyed. And yet I am going to do it all over again.

....

 

Do what I do. Copy the quotes you wantto a word processing document (I use Open Office) and compose there, then copy and paste into a post.

 

Or if you do compose here, click and drag and copy before hitting "send" so you have it in clipboard.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Otherwise, the palindromedary eats it

[Lucius]

Re: Create Light and the 17 Point Light Spell that isn't

 

Perhaps you’re right. See below. I will note, however, that given that these are rules meant for modeling reality and are imperfect by their very nature, at some level it’s all arbitrary. You try to make it make as much sense as possible, but if something doesn’t quite fit…. How far down the rabbit hole do you go? How many rules and subrules do you create? This is an aside, really, that has only a small substantive impact on the discussion at hand, but an important one.

 

Or rather – which rabbit hole? Do you go the way of Utech's radical solution of just making up a new Power whole cloth, or create what you need out of elements in the toolkit already, even if that involves applying a number of Modifiers?

 

Here I disagree with your examples, which seem disingenuous. There is nothing that requires or even suggests that a Blast power should have a SFX of light or lasers or even energy (you actually shifted from Blast to “energy blast”). That’s why they changed the name of the power from Energy Blast to Blast because there is no necessary relationship. A Blast can be energy, ice, a baseball, a gust of wind, whatever.

 

Energy Blast is the old name; I've been playing a long time.

 

And yep, you're basically making the same point I was. Blast doesn't have to be light, and neither does Images.

 

The same is true for Flash: while I might allow a PC to be able to get a glimpse of what is around him if he is not looking at the Flash when it goes off, it makes no sense to use it as a sustained source that enables people to see since the entire purpose of the power is to render a particular sense temporarily ineffective. Additionally, I would increase the penalty of darkness modifiers after the Flash since his night vision would have been ruined by the sudden saturation of light. So these Powers make LESS sense than Nightvision for the purpose of JUST reducing darkness penalties.

 

Now actually, when it comes to Flash, my point is this: it's hard to imagine any kind of create light Power except at the low end (a candle) that does not logically imply the ability to dazzle someone's sight as at least a possible application of the Power. I can hurt someone with a torch (possibly implying Blast or some damaging Power) or other fire based light, but I can only hurt someone with a flashlight by using it as a club. But both could also temporarily blind someone, especially if they're just

coming out of very dim or absent light. (of course, if they were in the dark and can't normally see in the dark, they were ALREADY blind, so...)

 

Agreed. However, I would like to again note that there IS a substantive distance between “reducing darkness penalties” and “making people able to see.” I think they are mechanically distinct.

 

Yes, but the description of the Power Nightvision in the rules says “The character can see in total darkness.” it doesn't just make it easier to see when it's hard to see

 

(Digression: even though it's based on a mechanical build that implies that...maybe the question we need to ask is if Nightvision is built right in the rules in the first place?)

 

it makes it possible to see when it's impossible to see.

 

What happens if you give Nightvision to a person who has the Complication: Blind?

 

Good question. What happens if I give Running, Usable by Other, to a person who has the Complication: Lame? Does the Complication “overrule” the Power or vice versa?

 

What if I buy Enhanced Vision, +1 to Perception rolls, Usable on Other, and give it to a blind person?

 

I’m sorry, I was so focused on Images that I forgot that you said Change Environment.

 

I think most of the time the system does discriminate appropriately between targeting and non-targeting senses. Change Environment is an exception.

 

That might have potential.

 

So might Suppress Darkness. After all, Suppress and Dispel are allowed to work on things like “natural” fires aren't they? Why wouldn't they work on a natural darkness that's not bought as a Darkness Power?

 

This isn’t as eloquent as the last time I wrote this, but in short: you’ve convinced me. Images is kind of screwy for this. It’s not entirely logical or cohesive. However, I still think Nightvision is inappropriate. In fact, if anything, you’ve persuaded me that Nightvision should be eliminated, or at the very least the Senses need a significant overhaul.

 

Wasn't my intention. I'm far from being discontent with Nightvision, but I'll agree the topic's worth taking on.

 

I can see Transform, Summon, even Dispel potentially for the modeling the effect that RAW says Images is appropriate for…. But I think the best would be to toss it to Change Environment. Change Environment can already model negatives to PER due to environmental circumstances. It has a Wind Table/Chart. Why not just have a Luminosity Chart/Table linked to Change Environment the exact same way?

 

That would be more “radical” than most proposals, but less radical than inventing a whole new Light Power.

 

Also, perhaps Images could be renamed “Sensory Input” and there could be a cost divide between “real” sensory input and “false” sensory input. It could be the difference between, say, the ability to project your voice across distances (the voice really IS there, it’s really affecting the world around it, etc) versus an illusion/hallucination.

 

I wouldn't go so far as renaming it. We don't rename Darkness even though it can be anything from a cloud of smoke to a radar jamming field. Maybe a little re-writing. As for cost difference...hm....I created this power recently for packing a place with babes..

 

Looks like the place is packed with babes: Touch Group, Normal Sight and Normal Hearing Images, +/-6 to PER Rolls, Persistent (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Uncontrolled (Turn it off by turning them off. They'll probably scatter when the fight starts anyway) (+1/2) (70 Active Points); Extra Time (20 Minutes, Only to Activate, -1 1/4), Set Effect (-1), Difficult to Alter simple changes take a Full Phase (Plus verbal instructions. "Why don't you girls all get in the pool?"; -1/2), Physical Manifestation (Because it IS packed with babes; -1/4)

 

The assumption of course is that they're real babes, but their only function here is decorative. In what ways would the power be better or worse with unreal babes?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says there's no way this post could have been composed online!

[Lucius]

Re: Create Light and the 17 Point Light Spell that isn't

 

I've been reading the rules, and I'm starting to think Suppress vs. Darkness may be the best solution.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says it was like watching a light come on

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Create Light and the 17 Point Light Spell that isn't

 

But I think the best would be to toss it to Change Environment. Change Environment can already model negatives to PER due to environmental circumstances. It has a Wind Table/Chart. Why not just have a Luminosity Chart/Table linked to Change Environment the exact same way?

 

I suggested something much like this for 6e. It wasn't adopted.

[Lucius]

Re: Create Light and the 17 Point Light Spell that isn't

 

I suggested something much like this for 6e. It wasn't adopted.

 

It wasn't the only good idea to not be adopted.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary Orphanage is full of good ideas that have not yet been adopted

[dmjalund]

Re: Create Light and the 17 Point Light Spell that isn't

 

How abot "Suppress Change Environment"?

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Create Light and the 17 Point Light Spell that isn't

 

While I agree that Images "only for light" is a rather expensive way to build something like a flashlight, perhaps this is an indication that "only for light" isn't being given enough of a limitation; that is part of the HERO system that you get what you pay for. It depends on the setting and how useful light is as to how much it should cost. If you want it cheaper, make the limitation bigger.

 

That said, for most campaigns I don't think it is necessary to build flashlights - they are either equipment or a convenience that are too far down in the detail level to bother with. If a wizard wants a light spell for exploring dungeons or something, he can buy it as Images if he likes, but I think sfx of other powers should be used to cover it. In my games I allow wizards to use other spells (like Flame Bolt or Blinding Light or whatever if the sfx is appropriate) at a very low level to generate light without having to buy a separate spell. It just makes sense for the sfx and they already paid points for it, so why not?

 

As earlier noted, buying an Entangle just to generate ice cubes is silly, but if you already have an Ice Bonds Entangle, taking advantage of the sfx to make ice cubes is fine. What doesn't make sense (to me) is buying a power specifically to generate ice cubes; again that is too far down in the details to bother with. That is one of the great things about sfx in HERO. It allows the GM to handwave all those low level details just because it makes sense so things don't get bogged down.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Create Light and the 17 Point Light Spell that isn't

 

Hoy. The Nightvision idea was interesting, and got me thinking to other solutions involving Enhanced Perception. How about something like a (very) Limited Transmit Adder on Sight? It'd certainly be dirt cheap.

[Lucius]

Re: Create Light and the 17 Point Light Spell that isn't

 

Hoy. The Nightvision idea was interesting' date=' and got me thinking to other solutions involving Enhanced Perception. How about something like a (very) Limited Transmit Adder on Sight? It'd certainly be dirt cheap. [/quote']

 

An idea worth exploring. I've been playing a little with the Suppress angle.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Help! I'm a palindromedary and I'm being suppressed!

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Create Light and the 17 Point Light Spell that isn't

 

Flashlight: PSL vs. Normal Sight PER Penalties due to Darkness (Visible, OAF, Real Equipment, 1 Continuing Recoverable Charge lasting 6 hours (Batteries))?

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Create Light and the 17 Point Light Spell that isn't

 

Flashlight: PSL vs. Normal Sight PER Penalties due to Darkness (Visible' date=' OAF, Real Equipment, 1 Continuing Recoverable Charge lasting 6 hours (Batteries))?[/quote']

 

Fuel charge.

[Lucius]

Re: Create Light and the 17 Point Light Spell that isn't

 

Here's an example built with Suppress Darkness

 

Better to light one candle....: Suppress Darkness 3d6 (standard effect: 9 points), Area Of Effect (4m Radius; +1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (52 Active Points); No Range (-1/2), Limited Power Real Candle (Easily blown out, consumes oxygen, etc.; -1/2), Limited Special Effect Very Common SFX ("Natural" darkness (not bought with Darkness Power); -1/4), Perceivable (Unless hidden under a bushel; -1/4) Real Cost: 21

 

A logical as Suppress Darkness is, I think it may come in at too high in both Active and Real Points. Although I admit I'm not certain what IS the "ideal" cost for light, or how to calculate it.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary advises to just lighten up