Clinging w/Damage Shield Advantage?

[Xavier Onassiss]

Ran across an old character with this (5e) and I'm not sure what I was thinking! It was a brick, so the Clinging STR was in the 65-70 range.

 

How would a Clinging Damage Shield work in your campaign? Or would you just say that's not a good idea, try again, please?

[dmjalund]

Re: Clinging w/Damage Shield Advantage?

 

Unless clinging can be used as an attack (Which I don't think it can) all a clinging Damage shield means that if you are knocked into a wall, you have the option of sticking to it.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Clinging w/Damage Shield Advantage?

 

As already pointed out, unless it also had the UAA Advantage it wouldn't do much.

 

see this old thread on Clinging + UAA

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/60806-Clinging-UAA?highlight=clinging+usable+attack

[Beast]

Re: Clinging w/Damage Shield Advantage?

 

sounds like the intention was to have a sticky body and any body touching you would become stuck

while you could only do normal damage on your phases as a 1/2 attack action

the clinging Str would only apply to holding on

 

classic tar baby trick

[Beast]

Re: Clinging w/Damage Shield Advantage?

 

HD3 for 6th edition let me build this

 

Clinging (normal STR), Damage Shield (+1/2), Sticky (+1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Usable As Attack (+1) (35 Active Points)

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Clinging w/Damage Shield Advantage?

 

Heh. Good answers. Thanks.

 

I might try the UAA version with the added limitation Only applies to hands to simulate a super-strength combination block/grab maneuver. Maybe this should also have the Only w/Block Maneuver limitation, with a Trigger advantage?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Clinging w/Damage Shield Advantage?

 

I would strongly suggest looking at the old thread I linked to as was quite some debate over exactly what UAA Clinging actually would accomplish (no mention of Damage Shield though).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Clinging w/Damage Shield Advantage?

 

Unless clinging can be used as an attack (Which I don't think it can) all a clinging Damage shield means that if you are knocked into a wall' date=' you have the option of sticking to it.[/quote']

 

IIRC, this was in the 5e rules. A Clinging damage shield resulted in the Clinging STR holding the target who struck the character with the Damage Shield. So, if my Martial Artist leapt forward and Kicked Xavier's character, his Damage Shield would require my MA to break his 65 - 70 STR Clinging STR in order to pull my foot off his body. The concept was a Tar Baby ability.

 

The concern is obvious - Xavier's character wouldn't pay all that much for a 70 STR Clinging Damage Shield.

 

The FAQ tells us that this Damage Shield isn't otherwise available for the usual effects of clinging:

 

If a character buys the Clinging Damage Shield power described on 5E 94, can he still use his Clinging to stick to walls, prevent Knockback, and so forth?

 

No, he can only use it as a Damage Shield.

 

It's been discussed in a few threads, including this one.

 

Steve specifically notes UAA is not needed here.

 

A forum search for Cling Damage Shield pulls up lots of hits, many of which are "abusive build" threads.

 

I think the best approach, since the construct itself is useful, would be to treat Damage Shield clinging like UOO clinging, and give it a base 10 STR, rather than a STR equal to the purchasing character's STR. A 70 STR clinging damage shield would then cost the same regardless of whether the purchasing character is a Brick or a 1 STR Tar (literal) Baby.

[Armitage]

Re: Clinging w/Damage Shield Advantage?

 

IIRC' date=' this was in the 5e rules. A Clinging damage shield resulted in the Clinging STR holding the target who struck the character with the Damage Shield. So, if my Martial Artist leapt forward and Kicked Xavier's character, his Damage Shield would require my MA to break his 65 - 70 STR Clinging STR in order to pull my foot off his body. The concept was a Tar Baby ability.[/quote']

 

It's in Sixth Edition too. 6E1 182

"Area of Effect (Personal Surface-Damage Shield): Although Clinging isn't an Attack Power, characters may buy Area of Effect (Personal Surface-Damage Shield) for it to create, for example, a "tar baby" effect in which anyone who touches the character gets stuck to him. Clinging with this Advantage only functions as a Damage Shield; it doesn't allow characters to walk on walls or the like."

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Clinging w/Damage Shield Advantage?

 

I think this is really too cheap for its potential benefit; I would prefer to buy it with a TK Damage Shield.

[Outsider]

Re: Clinging w/Damage Shield Advantage?

 

HD3 for 6th edition let me build this

 

Clinging (normal STR), Damage Shield (+1/2), Sticky (+1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Usable As Attack (+1) (35 Active Points)

 

 

While clinging does not cost END in and of itself, exerting Strength to remain stuck to something/someone that is trying to escape being so stuck does. Unless one buys his STR with Reduced Endurance Cost, the tar baby should have to pay the END cost for exerting his STR every phase someone is stuck to him, right? This also makes an unconscious tar baby pretty easy to escape, despite the persistence of his clinging, as, being unconscious, he can't exert (spend END) to activate his STR. So, pretty much he'd -have- to buy 0 END (+1/2) and Persistent (+1/2) on his STR as well to use persistent DS clinging effectively. For a 70 STR character, that's another 70 points, if he wants to use his clinging at full STR while unconscious. No longer 'too cheap', I think.

 

Nor, IMHO, would it be out of line to reduce the DCV of the tar baby (regardless of his STR) if he has a person anywhere near his own size & mass 'stuck' to him. At a minimum, -2 DCV (as if he was grabbing someone), or more likely, half DCV, as if he is carrying a bulky/awkward focus. No matter how strong you are, if you mass 100 kg AND have a 100kg person stuck to your head by his foot, you're not going to be as nimble. Your center of mass & balace will be way off.

[Armitage]

Re: Clinging w/Damage Shield Advantage?

 

I think this is really too cheap for its potential benefit; I would prefer to buy it with a TK Damage Shield.

 

The "Gotcha!" Power in the Stretching chapter of Champions Powers uses an Entangle Damage Shield to make someone stick to you when they touch you.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Clinging w/Damage Shield Advantage?

 

While clinging does not cost END in and of itself, exerting Strength to remain stuck to something/someone that is trying to escape being so stuck does. Unless one buys his STR with Reduced Endurance Cost, the tar baby should have to pay the END cost for exerting his STR every phase someone is stuck to him, right? This also makes an unconscious tar baby pretty easy to escape, despite the persistence of his clinging, as, being unconscious, he can't exert (spend END) to activate his STR. So, pretty much he'd -have- to buy 0 END (+1/2) and Persistent (+1/2) on his STR as well to use persistent DS clinging effectively. For a 70 STR character, that's another 70 points, if he wants to use his clinging at full STR while unconscious. No longer 'too cheap', I think.

 

Nor, IMHO, would it be out of line to reduce the DCV of the tar baby (regardless of his STR) if he has a person anywhere near his own size & mass 'stuck' to him. At a minimum, -2 DCV (as if he was grabbing someone), or more likely, half DCV, as if he is carrying a bulky/awkward focus. No matter how strong you are, if you mass 100 kg AND have a 100kg person stuck to your head by his foot, you're not going to be as nimble. Your center of mass & balace will be way off.

 

Good points. The Endurance thing is kind of a deal-killer.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Clinging w/Damage Shield Advantage?

 

While clinging does not cost END in and of itself' date=' exerting Strength to remain stuck to something/someone that is trying to escape being so stuck does. Unless one buys his STR with Reduced Endurance Cost, the tar baby should have to pay the END cost for exerting his STR every phase someone is stuck to him, right?[/quote']

 

Wrong. Or at least I disagree. Characters with Clinging do not pay END for STR merely to cling. They do not exert STR to keep something stuck to them, unless their Clinging is specifically limited to cost END. There is no reason the damage shield should change that. Clinging is not an exertion of STR - it is a separate power whose initial effect is determined based on the STR of the character.

 

This is, however, another good reason to change the rules and have the STR of Clinging be separate and apart from the character's physical STR. You want to stick to walls with 40 STR, buy 40 STR of Clinging. You bought your own STR up to 75? How delightful - but it does not make your hands and feet stickier.

 

Nor' date=' IMHO, would it be out of line to reduce the DCV of the tar baby (regardless of his STR) if he has a person anywhere near his own size & mass 'stuck' to him. At a minimum, -2 DCV (as if he was grabbing someone), or more likely, half DCV, as if he is carrying a bulky/awkward focus. No matter how strong you are, if you mass 100 kg AND have a 100kg person stuck to your head by his foot, you're not going to be as nimble. Your center of mass & balace will be way off.[/quote']

 

I would agree only if similar encumbrance-type penalties are to be applied to characters lifting objects. Similar penalties should, of course, apply to the character whose foot is stuck to someone's head.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Clinging w/Damage Shield Advantage?

 

The "Gotcha!" Power in the Stretching chapter of Champions Powers uses an Entangle Damage Shield to make someone stick to you when they touch you.

 

That doesn't make sense to me, because there's nothing entangling the victim. If I punch The Blob and my fist gets stuck, the rest of me is fully exposed. There's nothing someone else could attack. I also don't see how that would adhere the victim to the other person ...

[Outsider]

Re: Clinging w/Damage Shield Advantage?

 

Wrong. Or at least I disagree. Characters with Clinging do not pay END for STR merely to cling. They do not exert STR to keep something stuck to them' date=' unless their Clinging is specifically limited to cost END. There is no reason the damage shield should change that. Clinging is not an exertion of STR - it is a separate power whose initial effect is determined based on the STR of the character.[/quote']

 

I don't have my rulebook with me, but IIRC :

 

Clinging Ability 1 : Allows the character to use is Running to move along all (solid) surfaces.

Clinging Ability 2 : Allows the character to exert his STR* to remain 'stuck' to any surface he is touching if someone tries to pull him off of it.

Clinging Ability 3 : Character rolls one more die when reducing Knockback.

 

My interpretation :

Clinging ability 1 allows the character to use another power (Running) in situations where it normally is not usable (on vertical/overhung surfaces), but it does not pay the END cost for the use of that power. If a character is just 'standing' there on the side of a wall, he isnt using any Running, so there is no END cost, but if he decides to move around, the Running he uses costs END.

 

Clinging ability 2 allows the character to use another power (Strength) in situations where it normally is not usable (to resist being picked up/moved when there is nothing to hang on to), but it does not pay the END cost for the use of that power. If a character is just 'standing' there on the side of a wall, he isnt using any STR, so there is no END cost, but if someone tries to pull him off of it and there is a STR vs STR contest, the STR he uses costs END.

 

*The rules specifically use this phrasing : exert his Strength (again, IIRC)

 

 

 

This is, however, another good reason to change the rules and have the STR of Clinging be separate and apart from the character's physical STR. You want to stick to walls with 40 STR, buy 40 STR of Clinging. You bought your own STR up to 75? How delightful - but it does not make your hands and feet stickier.

 

I am totally in agreement with you on this.

 

I would agree only if similar encumbrance-type penalties are to be applied to characters lifting objects. Similar penalties should, of course, apply to the character whose foot is stuck to someone's head.

 

I do apply such penalties to people lifting/carrying heavy/awkward objects. Usually they get the 'grab' modifier, as they're holding the heavy/awkward object in their hands, on their back, or in some other position they have chosen that is balanced along their centerline, and they're usually holding it close to their center of mass. The Clinging DS character might get just the 'grab' modifier sometimes, but is often likely to get the other one, as he isnt controlling where the point of contact or center of balance with the 'lifted/carried' object is.

 

And the guy who's foot is stuck to someone's head will likely get even worse modifiers to his DCV. They'd be less so if it was his hand stuck to their head, but they'd still be -at least- as bad as the modifiers person they are stuck to gets.

 

To me, this power seems most effective as a Martial Artist/Speedster killer used by bricks, and DCV loss generally hurts those two archetypes far more than it does a brick.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Clinging w/Damage Shield Advantage?

 

I don't have my rulebook with me, but IIRC :

 

Clinging Ability 2 : Allows the character to exert his STR* to remain 'stuck' to any surface he is touching if someone tries to pull him off of it.

 

Clinging ability 2 allows the character to use another power (Strength) in situations where it normally is not usable (to resist being picked up/moved when there is nothing to hang on to), but it does not pay the END cost for the use of that power. If a character is just 'standing' there on the side of a wall, he isnt using any STR, so there is no END cost, but if someone tries to pull him off of it and there is a STR vs STR contest, the STR he uses costs END.

 

*The rules specifically use this phrasing : exert his Strength (again, IIRC)

 

I also don't have the rules in front of me. Anyone posting with the rules handy care to weigh in?

 

To me' date=' this power seems most effective as a Martial Artist/Speedster killer used by bricks, and DCV loss generally hurts those two archetypes far more than it does a brick.[/quote']

 

Many damage shields are most effective as a MA/Speedster killer, especially if they likely do enough knockback to put the victim prone, blind him or otherwise reduce his DCV. And they are all less effective if their user has a high DCV, as a Damage Shield has no effect if the desired target doesn't hit you,so the Brick makes the best use of them, especially as he wants to be in HTH range anyway.

[Outsider]

Re: Clinging w/Damage Shield Advantage?

 

OK, I am home, and have my rulebook handy now.

 

It seems I did not recall entirely correctly as to the use of the phrase 'exert his strength'. It is used in the 'cost' text summary at the top of the power, but is not used in the body of the text explaining the power.

 

Cost summary text :

10 Character Points for ability to exert character's normal STR; +1 Character point for every +3 Clinging STR.

 

Explanatory paragraph text :

While Clinging, a character can use his full STR to "stick" to the surface. He can increase this total above his normal STR: Every +3 points of Clinging STR costs +1 Character Point. If another character wants to pull a Clinging character from a surface, he must exceed the character's total Clinging STR in a STR Versus STR Contest; otherwise the character remains stuck.

 

 

It seems to me that someone using his STR in a STR Versus STR contest is using his STR, which costs END.

 

This, of course, brings up the question of how much END a character who bought up his Clinging STR beyond his normal STR uses in the STR Versus STR contest. Does he just pay END on his normal STR, and the added Clinging STR is a 'freebie' as far as END cost goes, or is the added Clinging STR really just regular STR bought with a -2 limitation : Only to improve Clinging rolls, in which case he pays END to use it? Or, does DS Clinging really allow unlimited and continuing END free grabs that don't occupy a character's hands or take an action? That wouldn't be as broken as aborting to Flying Dodge and getting the movement portion of it, but its pretty broken IMHO.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Clinging w/Damage Shield Advantage?

 

IMHO, "Costs END: No" is pretty straight forward.

The only mention of END in the power's description is "Clinging does not cost END to use, but the character must pay the usual END cost for any movement used while Clinging." (6E1, 182).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Clinging w/Damage Shield Advantage?

 

IMHO, "Costs END: No" is pretty straight forward.

The only mention of END in the power's description is "Clinging does not cost END to use, but the character must pay the usual END cost for any movement used while Clinging." (6E1, 182).

 

Agreed - seems pretty straightforward.

 

OK, I am home, and have my rulebook handy now.

 

It seems I did not recall entirely correctly as to the use of the phrase 'exert his strength'. It is used in the 'cost' text summary at the top of the power, but is not used in the body of the text explaining the power.

 

Cost summary text :

10 Character Points for ability to exert character's normal STR; +1 Character point for every +3 Clinging STR.

 

Explanatory paragraph text :

While Clinging, a character can use his full STR to "stick" to the surface. He can increase this total above his normal STR: Every +3 points of Clinging STR costs +1 Character Point. If another character wants to pull a Clinging character from a surface, he must exceed the character's total Clinging STR in a STR Versus STR Contest; otherwise the character remains stuck.

 

 

It seems to me that someone using his STR in a STR Versus STR contest is using his STR, which costs END.

 

It seems to me that Clinging - Costs END - No and DocSamson's quote, above, makes it even clearer. If it cost END to use STR to cling, this would logically be stated. The character is not actually using his STR - he is using his Clinging.

 

This' date=' of course, brings up the question of how much END a character who bought up his Clinging STR beyond his normal STR uses in the STR Versus STR contest. Does he just pay END on his normal STR, and the added Clinging STR is a 'freebie' as far as END cost goes, or is the added Clinging STR really just regular STR bought with a -2 limitation : Only to improve Clinging rolls, in which case he pays END to use it? [/quote']

 

That question is simply resolved by the fact that the character is using Clinging, not STR, and Clinging does not cost END to use. Thus, there is no need to split hairs over whether this is "really" clinging that costs no END, or is "really" STR that costs END. You stick to the wall with Clinging, not with STR. You do not hold on to the wall with your STR (which would cost END, and is not persistent so a Stunned character stops holding on to the wall). You stick to it with your Clinging (which is Persistent and costs no END).

 

It is no more limited STR than Telekinetic STR is STR with "at range". It is the strength of the Clinging, not the strength of the character.

 

Or' date=' does DS Clinging really allow unlimited and continuing END free grabs that don't occupy a character's hands or take an action? That wouldn't be as broken as aborting to Flying Dodge and getting the movement portion of it, but its pretty broken IMHO.[/quote']

 

Yes, it really allows unlimited and continuing END-free "being stuck to the character" that does not occupy the character's hands or take an action. Just like a Damage Shield applied to an attack power which has the 0 END advantage allows unlimited and continuing END-free damage to be inflicted on those who attack you without occupying your hands or taking an action.

 

Is it broken? Well, a lot of posters clearly think so, based on prior threads. Is it hard to build broken abilities in Hero system? No, not really. I suggest a better solution may well be to change the Clinging rules so that the character's base Clinging STR is set at a value, not set equal to his STR, and can be bought up for 1 point per 3 additional clinging STR. STR has been decoupled from most everything else, so why not from Clinging?

[Outsider]

Re: Clinging w/Damage Shield Advantage?

 

The back of my mind has been percolating with what seems broken about this to me, and I am thinking it is the effective power of it in relation to any campaign limits on the Active Points of powers.

 

If your campaign has (say) a 70 Active Point limit on powers, then the regular attack power bought with (+1/2) for Reduced Endurance, and (+1/4) for AESurface (Damage Shield), is limited to 40 base points in the power, as the advantages required will bring it up to the 70 AP limit.

 

This Clinging contruction on a 70 STR brick, however, effectively gives him a 122.5 Active Point power (70 STR with (+1/2) for 0 END cost, and (+1/4) for AESurface (Damage Shield) (Limited only to 'grab' people that touch him)) I also find it somewhat iffy that the character can turn a self only power into one that effectively acts as an attack just by buying (+1/4) AESurface.

 

But whatever. I suppose I am under no obligation to allow something in my game, even if it is 'book legal'.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Clinging w/Damage Shield Advantage?

 

I once used this build on a Blob style character I played for a few game sessions. My play findings weren't quite what I expected.

 

In the beginning it seemed like an "I win" button but I soon found out that having one hand or foot Clinging to me and a free Grab are very different things. After being stuck, if I didn't Grab the character fast, I would quickly find out if they had any ranged or non physical attacks. Funny thing, almost every Martial Artist I snared pulled out something sharp or pointy right after.

 

Then there are the "escapees". I was amazed at how many different ways there are to stack strength when you need to get away from someone. My Clinging STR was a 60 at the time and more than once a non-brick got away from me. Please note that when you Cling and Grab someone at the same time, they only have to escape from one. "If a person performing a Grab has Clinging and uses it to help hold onto the victim, the victim has to escape from the higher of the Grab STR or the Clinging STR. At the GM’s option, he might increase the highest one by +5 STR (perhaps more) to represent the cumulative effect." (6e1, 182). Below is an incomplete list of items that most melee characters who hit me seemed to have one or more of.

 

Contortionist (+1d6 STR for every 1 point by which the roll succeeds)

- Double Jointed (+3 Contortionist rolls)

Martial Escape (+15 STR)

- Damage Classes (+5 STR each)

Flight and Leaping (every 4m of Combat Movement can be used as +1 STR) (6e2, 25)

 

One Martial Artist I grabbed was easily able to get his STR over 100 for escapes.

A few other powers that confounded my my efforts at some point (and didn't even require a roll) included Desolidification, Teleportation, and EDM.