Have any of you played a Champions Hero with Summoning?

[Pizza Man]

The more I think about it, the more unbalancing it becomes.

 

Psidestep is a starting character (see sig) that hasn't generated a lot of GM comments. He can summon two 125 pt Dog soldiers. They're speed 5, with a 12D6 Energy Blast and slavishly loyal.

That makes three 12D6 E. Blasts that can be directed at an opponent. I built in a weakness, but I'm thinking I'm pushing the GM tolerance limit right there.

 

If I get experience to make my multipower 75 points, I will have 16 of the buggers. Or I could make the two I have stronger and more of an annoyance to the GM.

 

Has anyone created a summoning Hero and got it to work? I've seen duplication in character examples and they are even more powerful and potentially unbalancing.

 

Alternatively, has any GM run with a summoner and worked things out?

 

I'm afraid I may have to regulate Psidestep to villain status.

[CBikle]

Re: Have any of you played a Champions Hero with Summoning?

 

Summoning can be a tricky power with GMs who like to have a stronger degree of control over their game and/or with other players who might resent you playing "extra" characters and/or if your game group has a limited amount of game time each session (4 hours or less). These same problem also apply when playing with lots of Duplicates and followers.

 

My suggestion is that you keep the Summoned creatures at a relatively low Speed (3-4) and keep their actions at "soundbyte" level (especially in combat, as suddenly introducing new characters in the middle of Hero System combat will bring the game to a halt).

 

I don't know you, your GM or your playgroup, but I suspect that if the GM allows Summoning, he/she will gradually rethink the decision and will marginalize and water-down the power until you both agree to get rid of it or just create a new character.

[dmjalund]

Re: Have any of you played a Champions Hero with Summoning?

 

you might ban Summoning forom being placed in a Multipower - or have the summoned disappear or stop being loyal when you switch out of the Summoning slot.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Have any of you played a Champions Hero with Summoning?

 

Summoning doesn't always have to actually be a summoned character/creature.

It can be a vehicle as well.

 

This is exactly what I used if for with my this 350 point starting version of Batman(5e). They are not the bat-vehicles of the experienced character, they are just regular vehicles fitted with tech to allow them to come to Batman, period.

 

VPP slot: 8) Bat Vehicle Remote: Summon 60-point Bat Vehicles, 8 Recoverable Charges (+0), Expanded Class of Beings Very Limited Group (Bat Vehicles: Boat, Car and Jet; +1/4), Invisible to Sight Group, Source Only (+1/4), Slavishly Devoted (+1) (30 Active Points); Arrives Under Own Power (-1/2), Restrainable (-1/2), OIF (-1/2) Real Cost: 12

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Have any of you played a Champions Hero with Summoning?

 

Hmm... 125 points, 12d6, and SPD 5? How many points do they have left for Defenses? Could they stand up to one of their own 12d6 Blasts without being taken out of the fight? Do they have enough Presence to withstand most villains' Presence Attacks? Are their EGOs well enough protected to thwart most Mental Powers? How does their CV compare to that of your main character, or their opposition? How well do they coordinate in combat -- do they have Teamwork Skill? How do they communicate to issue or follow orders? Do they require verbal instructions, which could be drowned out by the noise of combat or certain Powers? When they appear, are they clumped together, so that one Area Of Effect attack would affect them all?

 

Underlying point being, there may be a number of exploitable drawbacks to relying on several allies of signicantly lower point totals. And if your character becomes known as a summoner, some opponents -- not all, but some -- will prepare to exploit them.

[CBikle]

Re: Have any of you played a Champions Hero with Summoning?

 

I just checked out the "Dog Soldiers" stats ; not bad.

 

Personally, I'd be OK with them as written, but I'd recommend a higher PRE (maybe 15) and Tracking Scent, because they're dogs.

 

Out of curiosity, I have two questions:

 

- How many players are in your group.

 

- Does the GM run summoned creatures/followers or does he let the PC do this and if so, is it all the time or just in combat (I'd imagine that the loyalty modifiers might influence this).

[Pizza Man]

Re: Have any of you played a Champions Hero with Summoning?

 

 

Out of curiosity, I have two questions:

 

- How many players are in your group.

 

- Does the GM run summoned creatures/followers or does he let the PC do this and if so, is it all the time or just in combat (I'd imagine that the loyalty modifiers might influence this).

No players, not in a group yet. I'll probably have to GM to start a group. So I'm purchasing all the basic 6th ed books now.

I've GM'd before, and my personal theory is: if a player wants to summon, then he is responsible to run his minions.

[Pizza Man]

Re: Have any of you played a Champions Hero with Summoning?

 

Hmm... 125 points, 12d6, and SPD 5?

 

How many points do they have left for Defenses? 8 PD/ED

Could they stand up to one of their own 12d6 Blasts without being taken out of the fight? NO

Do they have enough Presence to withstand most villains' Presence Attacks? NOPE

Are their EGOs well enough protected to thwart most Mental Powers? NO

How does their CV compare to that of your main character, or their opposition? 10 with Skill levels

How well do they coordinate in combat -- do they have Teamwork Skill? NO

How do they communicate to issue or follow orders? Verbal only

Do they require verbal instructions, which could be drowned out by the noise of combat or certain Powers? YES

When they appear, are they clumped together, so that one Area Of Effect attack would affect them all? YES

 

Underlying point being, there may be a number of exploitable drawbacks to relying on several allies of signicantly lower point totals. And if your character becomes known as a summoner, some opponents -- not all, but some -- will prepare to exploit them.

There is a write up for them in my sig. See Psidestep below.He does not rely on summoned creatures. He is an energy projector as well. Stats for the character and the Dog Soldiers are in post #6.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Have any of you played a Champions Hero with Summoning?

 

There is a write up for them in my sig. See Psidestep below.He does not rely on summoned creatures. He is an energy projector as well. Stats for the character and the Dog Soldiers are in post #6.

 

Fair enough. I just wanted to highlight that there's a lot more to consider in balancing Summoned creatures than just how they stack up as additional mobile gun emplacements. With so much of their stats devoted to offense, they're much more vulnerable to counterattack than Psidestep, or most Starting Level or higher supers. If the dogs become known to his opposition as all bite but no backbone, I as GM would consider it logical for some of my villainous NPCs to target them early in a fight, to remove their offensive threat.

 

In particular, Mental Powers could play merry hob in turning their offense against you. They may be Slavishly Loyal to Psidestep, but they could easily be mentally controlled to attack each other, or Psidestep's allies. Or Mental Illusions or Images could be used to make allies appear to be enemies to them.

[Escafarc]

Re: Have any of you played a Champions Hero with Summoning?

 

The only Champions PC I have in my games that uses summon can only summon the ghosts of the signers of the Declaration of Independence and only in his study.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Have any of you played a Champions Hero with Summoning?

 

Those summoned dogs sound like glass cannons.

 

Things become "overpowered" fairly easily if you just look at Damage / Speed / Defense alone. Then the guy with the biggest or most guns generally is going to win.

 

Balancing things in HERO can be tricky like that and takes some trial and error. God knows I'm having a world of trouble with my current Champs game with 600-ish point characters with 20 rDEF and 75% Resistant Damage Reduction. Nearly any amount of direct damage I can toss at them will just annoy them, so I have to get, uh, "crafty" (or just downright evil.)

[Cassandra]

Re: Have any of you played a Champions Hero with Summoning?

 

To use Summoning the GM has to make play up the Role Playing involved to avoid abuse. Let's take a popular example from Television

 

Lex Luthor has Summond a group of supervillains to defeat the Justice League. In order to get them to go after the Justice League he used Bribery and his Money: Filthy Rich to modify the roll. When things go wrong he has to use persuasion to modify his bribery roll.

 

Summoning is different from Followers. Followers are like Robin, Speedy, Bucky, or Wonder Girl. They are younger and more inexperience versions of the heroes but are eager and helpful. Those summond are their against their will for the most part. Unless you pay for a means of controlling them the summoned shouldn't be slavishly loyal or even useful, at least without cost.

[Pizza Man]

Re: Have any of you played a Champions Hero with Summoning?

 

To use Summoning the GM has to make play up the Role Playing involved to avoid abuse. Let's take a popular example from Television

 

Lex Luthor has Summond a group of supervillains to defeat the Justice League. In order to get them to go after the Justice League he used Bribery and his Money: Filthy Rich to modify the roll. When things go wrong he has to use persuasion to modify his bribery roll.

 

Summoning is different from Followers. Followers are like Robin, Speedy, Bucky, or Wonder Girl. They are younger and more inexperience versions of the heroes but are eager and helpful. Those summond are their against their will for the most part. Unless you pay for a means of controlling them the summoned shouldn't be slavishly loyal or even useful, at least without cost.

I did pay. Slavishly loyal is +1. and it avoids all that nasty bribery. They just...obey.

 

Like someone else said the Dog Soldiers are glass cannons, they are there to shoot, and nothing more. I was hoping that would balance them out.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Have any of you played a Champions Hero with Summoning?

 

I've only rarely seen a character with a Summons, and typically it wasn't a combat-helper; more like a spy, or summoning a creature that represents a self-guided missile. I've seen a few character who use summoning as a special effect, though ... an Indirect RKA to represent summoning a fanged beast which attacks and promptly disappears, for example, or a fire blast described as a small dragon appearing on his shoulder, breathes, and vanishes.

 

As far as balance goes, the GM should simply take into account your ability to summon these things, as he takes into account everybody's capabilities when designing encounters. If it turns out that they are unbalancing beyond the point where he can keep things on an even keel, then you and he should work together to modify the power so it's acceptable (say, changing it into a 12d6 EB with 3-shot autofire; you summon the dogs, they fire, then get unsummoned immediately).

[Pizza Man]

Re: Have any of you played a Champions Hero with Summoning?

 

(say' date=' changing it into a 12d6 EB with 3-shot autofire; you summon the dogs, they fire, then get unsummoned immediately).[/quote']

 

That could work. I was hoping for more generic uses like guarding a camp whilst I slept and such.

 

I'm getting the feel like I'm gonna have to substitute another power or something. I just see the fantasy mages summoning lions and such...But we're dealing with different games.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Have any of you played a Champions Hero with Summoning?

 

Like someone else said the Dog Soldiers are glass cannons' date=' they are there to shoot, and nothing more. I was hoping that would balance them out.[/quote']

 

Unless you've already discovered in play that it won't, I really doubt you'll have a major problem. Based on what you've written up I'd say there will be situations when you'll be able to use the Dogs very effectively, and others when they won't be a decisive factor, and others when they might even be a liability. IOW balanced overall.