Teleportation NND RKA and Focus damage

[Martin2]

I apologise if this has been answered elsewhere.

 

I have a player with a teleport attack which is effectively teleport small objects into people causing NND 2D6 so ignores all PD / ED.

 

He follows the logic of if he can teleport small objects into people he can teleport small objects into Foci and damage them or destroy them.

 

The specific target was Cyclones jet pack to stop it working or disrupt it so it flew in circles etc. Following the Foci rules it is 53 active points giving him 10 PD / ED or you could say it could also be attached to his armour giving it 15 PD ED (which at the time I was not aware of so I ruled he was trying for a free drain or transform effect so said it did not work).

 

 

Would you rule that the 2D6 damage was worth more as it was a relevant NND as this attack would never damage Foci but would disable / kill NPC's in a few blasts? Or would it effectively destroy 1 power per attempt?

 

(This player does try for as many free special effects on his Teleport as much as possible. He has tried as foci for his attack is small objects of opportunity. He asks if that object was a grenade or small explosive charge why is it not doing instance death attack! Obviously I have tried to explain that he needs a few more points in his MP for that one .)

 

Thanks

[Steve Long]

Re: Teleportation NND RKA and Focus damage

 

This isn't really a rules question so much as it is a discussion topic, so I've moved it to the Discussion area to allow other posters to respond.

 

From a rules standpoint it's certainly possible to build an RKA, NND, Does BODY that makes it relatively easy to damage/destroy Foci. Many other attacks could do the same thing. I think the issue here isn't a rules one so much as it is one of players and GMs both applying their common and dramatic sense. As it says in the rulebook, "just because you can do something doesn't mean you should."

 

In my experience, if you have a player who insists on using a power like this so frequently that it negatively impacts the campaign, one of the easiest ways to deal with it is to start using the same sort of attack against him and the PCs just as frequently. Once the players get a taste of how annoying and disruptive it is a cease-fire often results. However, I'm sure other GMs have insights of their own and will be happy to post 'em here.

[Christopher]

Re: Teleportation NND RKA and Focus damage

 

Steve already made a good point: Just because you can, doesn't means you should.

 

Also AVAD is a Yield Sign power, so you have any right to forbid it's use/forbid that power as "damaging the game balance"

About over-using of special effects, just let him read 6E1 122. In Hero you don't buy special effects, you buy powers with clearly defined rules concepts. Special effects may give you a certain power-like result - once or twice and with a power roll. But once use it more often, you have to buy it as a power.

 

It would help a lot to know what the defenses against the NND is. Power Defense? Teleportation Powers? Perhaps switching that to more common defenses would help.

Overall an RKA NND isn't a very good idea, when the defense is uncommon...

 

For the grenade I would say, mixing up the explosives with the organic matter will prevent the explosion.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Teleportation NND RKA and Focus damage

 

If this teleportation attack is part of a multipower or VPP I would strongly encourage the player to build a Dispel based slot to use vs. Foci.

 

Regarding the "should I allow" aspect I would require any character with such an ability to have some type of moral code complication (Superman's Heat Vision can hurt and eventually kill almost anyone but he rarely uses it vs. soft targets because of his CvK).

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Teleportation NND RKA and Focus damage

 

Breakable foci are susceptible to damage from attacks, so there's no reason he can't just target applicable foci with the power as-is.

 

A Dispel would be useful for devices not built as foci such as cybernetics, or Only In Alternate Identity pseudo-foci.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Teleportation NND RKA and Focus damage

 

Ruling that it doesn't work is certainly valid, IMO. You could also treat it as a Power Stunt (q.v.) and give it a chance to work. But if it's a thing he wants to keep on being able to do, he needs to buy it.

[Christopher]

Re: Teleportation NND RKA and Focus damage

 

Ruling that it doesn't work is certainly valid' date=' IMO. You could also treat it as a Power Stunt (q.v.) and give it a chance to work. But if it's a thing he wants to keep on being able to do, he needs to buy it.[/quote']

Technically an RKA already works against Foci, so yes you gave him the tool for the job. When you want to take that away, consider to make him take a Limitation or consider it a broadening of the NND defense (Whatever normally Works + being unliving).

 

One thing about the telportation effect:

The rulesystem (6E2 29) sugest that it doesn't works for (willfully) teleporting objects into another. If you should teleport one object into another Object on error, damage is made to the Object being miss teleported.

So you could say that "Teleport Knive into Hearth" is not a valid use of Teleportation Special effect - even the most simple use has to be bought explicitly with a Power and approved.

[Martin2]

Re: Teleportation NND RKA and Focus damage

 

The Champions Powers book gives specific examples of NND RKA attacks of teleporting things into people for damage so I am allowing it.

 

The group is not a 4 colours group of heroes so damaging villains to near death is not a problem for them. It is a problem for me as the government is not so keen on it!

 

But they did not kill any of the Ultimates they met. It was close and they nearly had a totall wipeout for them. If that happened they would have been infected by the ophidian plague and become snake men and probably end of campaign or having to be rescued by the Champions!

 

The players are not too familiar with Hero and I only have the books so they are not too familiar with the rules (well the others are more sympathetic with me ).

 

The player in question knows other RPG's and says well this is logical so why does it not work. Damage someone = damage equipment. Problem being if you let him do it to a jet pack he will do it to any Foci and cripple any villain with a simple ~60 point power in a MP!

 

Obviously his proposed power is a drain / transform but this would be an effect any technology power which factored with limitations would be a worthless 1D6 etc.

 

Does anyone have any suggestions for 60 point drains / transforms with specific limitations that I can throw at him for his next power in his Teleport MP?

[Christopher]

Re: Teleportation NND RKA and Focus damage

 

The player in question knows other RPG's and says well this is logical so why does it not work. Damage someone = damage equipment. Problem being if you let him do it to a jet pack he will do it to any Foci and cripple any villain with a simple ~60 point power in a MP!

Yes, when you can hit a Person with it, you can destroy items with it.

 

For most part Bullets beats Scanner, Energyblast beats Jetpack. So why shouldn't it work against items, when they don't have the defense to block an NND? (Don't forget taht you can buy defenses for foci only, with a -1/2 Limitation and APG II will contain rules for tougher foci).

[Lucius]

Re: Teleportation NND RKA and Focus damage

 

I apologise if this has been answered elsewhere.

 

I have a player with a teleport attack which is effectively teleport small objects into people causing NND 2D6 so ignores all PD / ED.

 

He follows the logic of if he can teleport small objects into people he can teleport small objects into Foci and damage them or destroy them.

 

The specific target was Cyclones jet pack to stop it working or disrupt it so it flew in circles etc. Following the Foci rules it is 53 active points giving him 10 PD / ED or you could say it could also be attached to his armour giving it 15 PD ED (which at the time I was not aware of so I ruled he was trying for a free drain or transform effect so said it did not work).

 

 

Would you rule that the 2D6 damage was worth more as it was a relevant NND as this attack would never damage Foci but would disable / kill NPC's in a few blasts? Or would it effectively destroy 1 power per attempt?

 

(This player does try for as many free special effects on his Teleport as much as possible. He has tried as foci for his attack is small objects of opportunity. He asks if that object was a grenade or small explosive charge why is it not doing instance death attack! Obviously I have tried to explain that he needs a few more points in his MP for that one .)

 

Thanks

 

There is no reason this power can't damage an Accessible Focus. (Unless it's an Unbreakable Focus or something.)

 

Technically you could rule "no, you can't damage an INaccessible Focus that way" but Focus is a Limitation for a reason. I suggest giving him a high targetting penalty (-8 OCV maybe) and perhaps a requirement to make a Power Skill Roll or if he has Skill Levels that apply to the Power, allocate them to this "stunt."

 

The tricky part is the Powers that "look like a Focus" like Only in Alternate ID often does.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Looks like a palindromedary

[Christopher]

Re: Teleportation NND RKA and Focus damage

 

The tricky part is the Powers that "look like a Focus" like Only in Alternate ID often does.

The rulebook even had a note somwhere to Use OIAID instead of OIF. Especially for greater security for than OIF (nobody can steal it and use it against you, unless that is the basis of the adventure), but the fact that one can't destroy your Ironman-Armor now is also very usefull.

Just asume that it has some devices/appropirate protection against direct damage (the material is self-mending/self repairing, can't lock on with teleport, etc...). perhaps the armor is literally indestructible, the same way Mjolnir is.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Teleportation NND RKA and Focus damage

 

A GM is supposed to tailor his opposition to the abilities of the PCs. You simply don't throw villains who rely wholly on their foci at this group all the time. Also keep in mind that some foci are Unbreakable and won't be fouled up by being damaged. Plus, there's the D for that NND that will prevent it from working en toto.

 

The power he has works perfectly by the rules, though he may want the additional flexibility a Dispel slot would grant him.

[Martin2]

Re: Teleportation NND RKA and Focus damage

 

A GM is supposed to tailor his opposition to the abilities of the PCs. You simply don't throw villains who rely wholly on their foci at this group all the time. Also keep in mind that some foci are Unbreakable and won't be fouled up by being damaged. Plus' date=' there's the D for that NND that will prevent it from working en toto. [/quote']

 

My initial question was to SL about the rules question which gives the rules of foci and be damaged if attacked which he turned it into a discussion. The rules state that non unbreakable foci take damage and have a linked PD / ED based on cost of the power. If damage beyond that certain PD /ED attack a power is lost. To me a relevant AVAD / NND can take out a lot of powers. I was just seeing if anyone else had come across this and had a rule.

 

My player is always challenging the concepts of the Hero System. He does not have the rules and even though I explain he always comes up with logical powers that he could adapt his Teleport to. The problem being I say it does not work and then when he has enough EXP say “well you now can have that power you used previously and this is what it is” etc.

 

He originally only had a long list of teleport powers with no attacks so I convinced him to have the 2D6 RKA of teleporting things into people and the 6D6 blast NND. So my choice to speed up the combat as he was only disarming people with a teleport disarm (again my suggested power) and 20m attack teleport to move people and objects around.

 

Most villains have Foci. Guns, armour, flight packs etc. I cannot slap on defences of teleport does not affect them on all of them just to screw up his attack even though it obeys the rules. Giving them all a teleport belt 1M would stop all his attacks but would take his character out of the combat. And also will make him dislike the Hero system more than he does at the moment!

 

Also most of these Foci would be damaged by any AVAD / NND if they were specifically targeted. It looks like there is no specific rule I can quote so I will just have to say his 2d6 RKA does damage to flesh and blood and not jet packs / guns etc. To do that he will need to spend points on drain / dispel / transform (whatever I decide).

 

The problem being that the effect will be to teleport small objects into guns / jet packs etc to make them not work! The current power he has!

 

So frustrating as I see his point of view!!!!

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Teleportation NND RKA and Focus damage

 

The player is making the common mistake of confusing the HERO Power (the Effect) with the similarly named special effect (sfx).

 

A character who has the Teleportation Power does not necessarily use the teleportation sfx (example: short-burst superspeed too quick* to see is easily modeled with Teleportation with the Must Cross Intervening Space Limitation). Even the teleportation sfx itself can have many flavors (see the series Stargate:SG1 for multiple examples).

 

*(Except to characters with Rapid senses)

But i digress..

 

The main theme in HERO (and maybe you need to lend this player a rulebook or encourage him to buy the Basic Rules to get this concept accross) is that you pay for the Effect(s) you want your character to be able to do. You define a common sfx but the HERO Power list is not a list of sfx (there are no lightning bolt or magic missile Powers), it is just a list of tools used to create abilities of sfx "X". Standard attack powers (blast & KA) can certainly be used against foci but they should never be as good at it as the Powers designed specifically for that purpose (Dispel). A character wanting to use a Blast vs. another character's weapon focus is probably going to take a penalty to his OCV due to targeting (similar to the disarming rules). In the same line of reasoning, a super-strong character can occasionally use a light-pole (if handy) to wrap up bad guys without actually paying for an entangle power (he doesn't control the actual stats of the resulting 'entangle' though, that's up to the GM). If the player wants to be able to do it on a regular basis he should be encouraged to purchase the appropriate power construct (Entangle).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Teleportation NND RKA and Focus damage

 

Being able to teleport things into other things is also one of the most powerful special effects out there (right up there with psychokinesis and telepathy). How many Star Trek stories (televised & in print) have revolved around the transporters being used to place something inside an enemy ship? (Too many to count!) How common are powers in your campaign world? How common is it for other characters to have similar powers? If a player character has this ability it is reasonable that one or more NPC's do as well. Does this player (and other players in the game) want to deal with villains using a similar ability against them? (probably not, but it's a question worth asking)

 

HM

[casualplayer]

Re: Teleportation NND RKA and Focus damage

 

Martin2, you say this is for a 60 pt Multipower? If the power he is using is a 2d6 NND RKA (60 AP) there's no room there for the Does BODY advantage. Is he only doing STUN with this power? If so, he isn't going to be hurting any foci with it. Maybe a 1d6+1 NND RKA Does BODY? (60 AP)

 

And if the power just does STUN by teleporting objects into the same space as other objects, it doesn't sound like they merge permanently instead just temporarily disrupt and discomfort each other. That would justify a power that would short circuit a device but not one that would necessarily break it for good. That could be a special effect for tons of stuff from Missile Deflection (causes the gun to jam, missile to misfire, arrow to not fly true) or Suppress or improved DCV, etc, etc.

 

Also foci are usually tiny and have hefty DCVs. Unless your teleporter is also a marksman he's asking for frustration trying to target the device of an elusive adversary.

[Christopher]

Re: Teleportation NND RKA and Focus damage

 

Most villains have Foci. Guns' date=' armour, flight packs etc. I cannot slap on defences of teleport does not affect them on all of them just to screw up his attack even though it obeys the rules. Giving them all a teleport belt 1M would stop all his attacks but would take his character out of the combat. And also will make him dislike the Hero system more than he does at the moment![/font']

 

Also most of these Foci would be damaged by any AVAD / NND if they were specifically targeted. It looks like there is no specific rule I can quote so I will just have to say his 2d6 RKA does damage to flesh and blood and not jet packs / guns etc. To do that he will need to spend points on drain / dispel / transform (whatever I decide).

Not every villian, not every item. Just a number equal to the rarity of the defense (since it's the rarity of defense, that determines the value of the Advantage). When it can't be used to damage Equipment, then that is worth a Limitation. Most likely around -1.

 

About the calculation:

Normal PD to Rare (Teleport) is a +2 Advantage. Since it is NND, that gets down to one Step so it is a 1 1/2 Advantage. Since it needs to do BODY, this is another +1 Advantage for a total of 2 1/2 Advantages or 3.5 Multiplier.

With a 15 pt Killing Attack (1d6), that means it's a 52 AP Power

With a 20 pt Killing Attack (1d6+1), that means it's a 70 AP Power

 

It might be a good Idea to lower the Defense to Power Defense (it's a good target for most unusual AVAD/NND's). That way it would only be a +2 Advantage together with Does Body, so 1d6+1 Damage is a 60 AP Power and it is less absolute.

 

You could still give him other attacks, that target more "normal" defenses. For Example:

Flicker Attack: 12d6 Blast, Teleportation Special Effect, Targets normaly ED (60 AP)

Fluff: Some Atoms in the Target get "shuffeled up". While not strong or controlled enough to insta-kill a target, it is a great disturbance for any Organism and Item. Unfortunatley the way the effect is delivered to the target (a Beam of Energy), makes it succeptible to Energy Dispersing Protections (like Armors and Forcefields).

 

Just because it is a teleportation Special effect, doesn't means it can't do "normal" attacks with a little bit of phantasy.