Adjusting DCV

[Lucius]

Re: Adjusting DCV

 

One solution might be to halve BOTH OCV and DCV for Drain, and halve NEITHER for Aid.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Can you Aid an Inherent Palindromedary?

 

That could make the boosted guy nearly impossible to hit when you don't have an AOE.

 

*shrug*

 

Then maybe the answer is to halve it for Combat Value across the board.

 

That said, with a 12 DC power able to modify either OCV or DCV by 4 points, an 11- to hit (62.5% chance) goes to 15- (about 95%) if we enhance OCV or reduce DCV. It drops to 7- (about 16%) if we enhance DCV or reduce OCV. These both seem pretty effective. Perhaps the answer is to halve the impact on OCV as well, not to remove the halving for DCV.

 

I was already thinking that, before I read Hugh Neilson's post here. I think if it were my character, I could live with that rule.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary visits a chiropractor

[Ice9]

Re: Adjusting DCV

 

Wich is why there is an ecouragement for the GM to not allow that in the books. Sorry' date=' but regulary hitting a target with a 1d6 Entangle (that will never hold) just to drop it's DCV is just not how the power is inteded to work.[/quote']1d6 was just an example. Since we're talking about a 60p Drain, let's talk about a 60p Entangle - we'll take the "Only takes damage when targetted" advantage, so that's what, 4d6? That's strong enough that most characters can't casual out of it, so even if the house-rule you mentioned was being used, it wouldn't matter.

 

So:

Entangle: Get auto-hit (and auto-headshotted, if hit locations are being used) until your next phase, then have to spend an action breaking free (and for a few characters, they may have trouble doing so).

Drain DCV: -2 DCV; lasts longer, but they never have to use an action and are never Move-Through/Headshot fodder.

 

A 1d6 Entangle should be easily demolished by Casual STR. The addition of Casual use of other powers in 6e (a development I was quite happy to see) also allows it to be shredded by pretty much any attack power immediately. Problem solved?

Without a house-rule, you still don't get that chance to escape until you can take an action. Also, as mentioned, for the cost of a decent drain, you get an Entangle strong enough that most characters can't Casual out of it.

[Christopher]

Re: Adjusting DCV

 

Entangle: Get auto-hit (and auto-headshotted, if hit locations are being used) until your next phase, then have to spend an action breaking free (and for a few characters, they may have trouble doing so).

Drain DCV: -2 DCV; lasts longer, but they never have to use an action and are never Move-Through/Headshot fodder.

Entangle can be escaped with a normal STR check. Or causal use of power. Or Teleport/Desolidifcation.

Drain lasts for mutltiple turns, no escape possible (except healing Drain). And can even be used multiple times, to get the maximum effect of 36 (before halving). A solid -3 for DCV or a -7 for OCV.

When we are at it, why don't we try to compare Dran or Entangle with Flash? Can halv your DCV too, for multiple segments and disables your OCV much like Entangle.

or could it be that comparing Flash, Entangle and Drain DCV is comparing Apples and Oranges? Both have their downside, weaknesses and advantages.

 

I still think OCV should not be halved. The drain there only affects you on your phases you use to Attack or Block, DCV Drain affects you on any phase your enemys uses to attack you (wich will be plenty, considering that they drained DCV in the first place).

Drain OCV hinders attacks. Drain DCV is like Boosting the OCV of all nearby enemys.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Adjusting DCV

 

For a 12 DC power to modify OCV or DCV by 4 points is powerful' date=' but the fade/return rate is fairly high unless the +1 Advantage to move it down the time chart to 1 minute is applied, which halves the effectiveness. Also, nobody ever won a combat with just a CV adjustment. It is a support power, and as such the character has to spend a action to activate it and then have a follow up attack to make it worthwhile (of course on a team this is less of a problem since the teammates benefit too). Personally I like to encourage the use of support powers, because it makes for more interesting combats than a simple exchanging of blows.[/quote']

 

Under 5e, a 60 AP drain would average 7 DEX, reducing OCV and DCV by 2 each, maybe 3. 6e allows the same Drain to reduce OCV or DCV by 4 (or apply half to each and reduce each by 2), without draining DEX and with range added, so the only real change is targeting OCV and DCV separately. Was a DEX drain overpowered in 5e? Does the change to target only one of the two CV's in 6e make it more powerful? That seems like the question we're exploring.

 

1d6 was just an example. Since we're talking about a 60p Drain' date=' let's talk about a 60p Entangle - we'll take the "Only takes damage when targetted" advantage, so that's what, 4d6? That's strong enough that most characters can't casual out of it, so even if the house-rule you mentioned was being used, it wouldn't matter.[/quote']

 

OK, as I read the rules, "casual to break free" isn't nearly the house rule it once was. One gets casual STR automatically to escape a Grab, so why not also an entangle? In any case, the 60 AP entangle makes it less of an issue. But let's compare:

 

- the reduced DCV lasts until it recovers where the entangle will be broken when the character gets an action, or a teammate uses one to assist him (and the Entangler needs a teammate to take advantage of the opponent's reduced DCV).

 

- the reduced DCV is not as impairing as reducing it to 0 in most cases, but a 4 point change in DCV almost allows for auto-hits.

 

- after two or three shots (if DCV drains at 4/hit), the target is at 0 DCV, and will stay there, or very low, for considerable time. The Entangle will have to keep being reinstated.

 

- the advantage of the Entangle is that it can hold the target (and some targets will have more difficulty breaking free). The DCV drained target will still be able to attack, move, etc.

 

I don't know the Entangle is more powerful than knocking off 4 DCV a shot.

 

How much would this depend on whether the GM allows an action to break/escape an Entangle to be aborted to - it is used to restore one's DCV.

 

Entangle can be escaped with a normal STR check. Or causal use of power. Or Teleport/Desolidifcation.

Drain lasts for mutltiple turns, no escape possible (except healing Drain). And can even be used multiple times, to get the maximum effect of 36 (before halving). A solid -3 for DCV or a -7 for OCV.

 

There is a maximum to positive adjustment powers, not negative onces. That Drain can keep soaking up DCV/OCV every phase until it's gone.

 

I still think OCV should not be halved. The drain there only affects you on your phases you use to Attack or Block, DCV Drain affects you on any phase your enemys uses to attack you (wich will be plenty, considering that they drained DCV in the first place).

Drain OCV hinders attacks. Drain DCV is like Boosting the OCV of all nearby enemys.

 

Drain OCV is like boosting the DCV of all nearby targets, isn't it? I'm not sold one way or the other, but I am coming more to the view that OCV and DCV should both be affected the same way by adjustment powers, whether that is full or halved.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Adjusting DCV

 

The fundamental difference is that there are characters that rely on DCV to survive. Not be effective, survive.

 

You don't typically need to rely on OCV to survive because there are multiple methods for reducing an opponent's DCV.

[Christopher]

Re: Adjusting DCV

 

There is a maximum to positive adjustment powers' date=' not negative onces. That Drain can keep soaking up DCV/OCV every phase until it's gone.[/quote']

Oh, intersting. Always thought they were subject too.

 

Drain OCV is like boosting the DCV of all nearby targets' date=' isn't it? I'm not sold one way or the other, but I am coming more to the view that OCV and DCV should both be affected the same way by adjustment powers, whether that is full or halved.[/quote']

Nope. It's only boosting the DCV of those you attack (wich is subject to your ability to attack in the first place). Your allies can still hit them normally.

 

There are a few defensive uses of OCV, but these pale in comparion to use DCV for defense. That is why it should be considered a defensive Characterstic and protected by the halving, but OCV not.

 

Off course you can to it however you like. I doubt we we will find much more things that favor the one site over the other.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Adjusting DCV

 

The fundamental difference is that there are characters that rely on DCV to survive. Not be effective' date=' survive.[/quote']

 

I'm pretty sure a lot of characters rely on PD to survive too, which would support halving DCV effects, but not OCV effects. However, an Aid to OCV makes it just as easy to hit the high DCV character as a Drain to DCV would. The only difference is that the OCV Aid only affects one attacker where the DCV Drain would make it easier for all attackers to hit.

 

That said, a STR AID enhances only one attacker's damage, where a PD Drain would enhance damage taken from all physical attacks, so the two are not entirely dissimilar. Maybe the biggest difference, at least in my mind, is that the PD drain makes it much more likely the target not only takes damage and gets KO'd (which the DCV drain also accomplishes), but also makes him more likely to take BOD damage, resulting in death.

 

I think there are really two questions here. First, "is an OCV adjustment of equal value to a DCV adjustment".

 

Second, "how fast/significantly should it be possible to adjust either OCV or DCV up or down"?

 

A 4 point reduction in OCV moves the attacker from, say, 11- to hit to 7- to his (62.5% chance to 16.2% chance). A second shot drops him to needing a 3 (well under 1% chance). But the same Drain would cost him 4 DC's, making his hits pretty ineffectual in most games, and an 8 DC loss from two hits would make most attackers laughable, so the two are at least somewhat comparable.

 

Dropping DCV in 2 point increments means moving from, say (for a high DCV opponent), 9- (37.5%) to 11- (62.5%) to 13- (83.8%) to 15- (95%) chances to hit. Dropping PD by about 10 per hit drops almost every targets to 0 PD in 4 hits, and drops their PD to a likely ineffectual number after two hits (from a fairly high 30 or 35 to 10 or 15, likely to be stunned at least by a single attack). So maybe halving DCV and leaving OCV is the consistent approach.

 

However, an extra 4 DC's adds 14 to my average STUN and 4 to average BOD. With Drains halved, PD drops 10. If not halved, it drops 21. For effectiveness purposes, not halving makes the PD drain more devastating for the individual target. Halving makes a DCV drain much less effective. The DCV or PD drain helps all my allies. The DC or OCV Aid hinders all my opponents.

 

Nope. It's only boosting the DCV of those you attack (wich is subject to your ability to attack in the first place). Your allies can still hit them normally.

 

There are a few defensive uses of OCV, but these pale in comparion to use DCV for defense. That is why it should be considered a defensive Characterstic and protected by the halving, but OCV not.

 

If I want all of my allies to be better able to hit all of our opponents, I either need to hit every opponent with a DCV drain, or every ally with an OCV Aid. That seems fairly comparable to me.

 

I'm still not sure which approach seems best, but I continue to lean to the theory that adjusting OCV and DCV carry comparable benefits for each increment adjusted, where adjusting attacks and defenses do not (ie 5 points of attack adds 3.5 STUN and 1 BOD where 5 points of PD means the target takes 5 more STUN and as much as 5 more BOD).

[Christopher]

Re: Adjusting DCV

 

If I want all of my allies to be better able to hit all of our opponents' date=' I either need to hit every opponent with a DCV drain, or every ally with an OCV Aid. That seems fairly comparable to me.[/quote']

I just noticed, when you would really write that up, wich one would be cheaper/more effective?

The Drain would only need Area Of Effect.

The Aid however would need some type of UOO, then Area of Effect on top of that.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Adjusting DCV

 

I just noticed, when you would really write that up, wich one would be cheaper/more effective?

The Drain would only need Area Of Effect.

The Aid however would need some type of UOO, then Area of Effect on top of that.

Aid works on anybody unless you buy it with the limitation "Self Only".

 

Thanks Hugh for the numerical analysis and trenchant comments; I would rep you again if I could. But we might also want to take into account that because of the bell curve, you get more bang for the buck from a small CV adjustment than a big one, while a PD Drain is more linear. That means halving the effect for a CV adjustment won't impact the power as much as it does for adjusting other defenses. You could use that to argue for halving both or neither depending on your point of view.

 

I don't think that the 5e DEX Drain was overpowered; in my experience it was probably a little underpowered. But that might be skewed by characters with combat levels that allowed some CV flexibility. Comparing 5e and 6e Drains vs. DEX is a bit tricky though because the break-points for DEX-figured CV don't line up with the points spent on 6e OCV and DCV, although with respect to adjustment powers I think it comes out pretty close.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Adjusting DCV

 

The fundamental difference is that there are characters that rely on DCV to survive. Not be effective, survive.

 

You don't typically need to rely on OCV to survive because there are multiple methods for reducing an opponent's DCV.

 

A good point, but does that mean DCV is so much more valuable that adjustment powers shouldn't work as effectively on it? Maybe the martial artist thinks so, but the brick doesn't care.

[Christopher]

Re: Adjusting DCV

 

Aid works on anybody unless you buy it with the limitation "Self Only".

No, I mean if you want to Drain all Your Enemyys at once (single Attack Action) or Aid all your allies at once (Single Attack action). We often had the concept of "Draining all Enemys OCV" instead of boosting your DCV, and vice versa and I think AID and Drain have different Prices/Advantage Values when transformed to AOE.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Adjusting DCV

 

No' date=' I mean if you want to Drain all Your Enemyys at once (single Attack Action) or Aid all your allies at once (Single Attack action). We often had the concept of "Draining all Enemys OCV" instead of boosting your DCV, and vice versa and I think AID and Drain have different Prices/Advantage Values when transformed to AOE.[/quote']

 

I think Aid and Drain work just the same except that Aid is no range and Drain in 6e does have range. You would only need UOO for an AoE Aid if you bought it as a continuous power (the Boost option where it has the limitation "Costs END to maintain"). Of course Aid is only 6pts per 1d6 while Drain is 10pts, so it is going to be cheaper to boost your allies than hinder your foes, especially if you want to increase the fade/return rate.

[Martin2]

Re: Adjusting DCV

 

I have a player who wants his character to be able to manipulate time so as to boost or drain DEX' date=' OCV,DCV, and SPD simultaneously (a +1½ Advantage). His beef is that for say 3d6 Aid (or Drain) which rolls an average of10, he gets +2 OCV but only +1 DCV, because DCV is a “defensive" power in 6e. That is for balance of course, but from a sfx standpoint it doesn’t make sense. So Iam looking for suggestions.[/size']

 

He could just by 4 linked Aids, with the DCV Aid having twice as many dice, but that is significantly more expensive than using the Advantaged Aid, even if he buys a separate Aid to add to the DCV Aid. Also it is clutters the character sheet.

 

He suggested that for a +½ Advantage, he could apply the Aid to DCV twice, essentially buying the Advantage for another stat, but applying it to one stat two times. That sounds reasonable, until you consider someone building just a DCV Drain and buying the Advantage that way instead of paying for the extra dice.

 

I suggested that we could house-rule OCV to work like DCV and both would only receive half effect. This mirrors the 5e cost structure in that 10 points to DEX would essentially give you +1 OCV and +1 DCV.

 

He countered that we could house-rule DCV not to be a defensive power. That would also mirror 5e rules, since DEX was affected at the normal rate. I am thinking that DCV was ruled to be a defensive power for good reason, but I haven’t exactly play-tested this.

 

So any thoughts, suggestions,or comments?

 

I sort of lost the thread of the rest of this with all the advice being thrown around.

 

So I thought I would go back to your original question to make it simple for me.

 

Either you can change the rule that DCV is not a defensive power (for whatever reason you think is best) but I think you should make it a rule for drain's or aids or what ever + or - effect you have in your game to make it simple. But this could make other powers very cheap to attack DCV (especially if this same player expands his powers to drain more DCV or aid his own DCV with his next power).

 

My thoughts are it still should be a defensive power as it is used against multiple attackers at the same time. So it would be overpowered if boosted on yourself as it would protect against lots of attacks where as OCV only effects your one attack (or some defences to a lesser effect). Or to drain one target and then you pile in with the rest of the group. So the ballance is it costs more.

 

In a similar situation I would say that the player should stick with SL rules and stick with the costing at halved or they will have to come up with a way they want to have the same values but which will cost more for game balance.

 

I find that some players will try and get as much out of their points as they can but if they want to change the rules it will have to be decided by the GM.

[Christopher]

Re: Adjusting DCV

 

This just popped up in the Rules Question and I think it is a solution to the problem, without affecting the splitting:

For Adjustment powers, you can have the points added/drained split among multiple characteristics at a pre-defined ratio for no extra cost (i.e. Aid to Strength and Con, 50% of the points to each).

 

You can also buy the Expanded Effect advantage to add the full value of the points rolled to multiple Characteristics (i.e. Aid to Strength and Con, 100% of the points rolled to each, for a +1 Advantage).

 

Can you combine both of these options, so that you get multiple "stacks" of Adjusted points, then split some or all of the stacks amongst different characteristics? A sample build:

 

Drain 7d6, Standard Effect 21 points, Expanded Effect (2 Characteristics; Speed/OCV 50% to each AND DCV, +1)

 

In theory, the above build would lower Speed by 1 (10 points, which is 50% of first "stack" of 21), OCV by 2 (10 points, which is the other 50% of first "stack" of 21), and DCV by 2 (20 points, which is 100% of the second "stack" of 21). But is the build legal?

 

As long as the GM doesn't object' date=' I see no reason not to allow a character to combine the two rules.[/quote']

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Adjusting DCV

 

Nice catch Christopher. Thanks for pointing that out. Seems I owe you rep...