Adjusting DCV

[Ockham's Spoon]

I have a player who wants his character to be able to manipulate time so as to boost or drain DEX, OCV,DCV, and SPD simultaneously (a +1½ Advantage). His beef is that for say 3d6 Aid (or Drain) which rolls an average of10, he gets +2 OCV but only +1 DCV, because DCV is a “defensive" power in 6e. That is for balance of course, but from a sfx standpoint it doesn’t make sense. So Iam looking for suggestions.

 

He could just by 4 linked Aids, with the DCV Aid having twice as many dice, but that is significantly more expensive than using the Advantaged Aid, even if he buys a separate Aid to add to the DCV Aid. Also it is clutters the character sheet.

 

He suggested that for a +½ Advantage, he could apply the Aid to DCV twice, essentially buying the Advantage for another stat, but applying it to one stat two times. That sounds reasonable, until you consider someone building just a DCV Drain and buying the Advantage that way instead of paying for the extra dice.

 

I suggested that we could house-rule OCV to work like DCV and both would only receive half effect. This mirrors the 5e cost structure in that 10 points to DEX would essentially give you +1 OCV and +1 DCV.

 

He countered that we could house-rule DCV not to be a defensive power. That would also mirror 5e rules, since DEX was affected at the normal rate. I am thinking that DCV was ruled to be a defensive power for good reason, but I haven’t exactly play-tested this.

 

So any thoughts, suggestions,or comments?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Adjusting DCV

 

Just try the most simple house rule possible: For purposes of Aid DCV is not a Defensive Power.

 

It was ruled as a Defensive Power likely for Drains and similar Adjustment Powers that reduce a stat, and likely just kept that way for Positive Adjustment to keep it all the same across the board.

 

If Positively Adjusting DCV as a Defensive Power is causing problems for your game, just stop it and see what happens. If it's not working out change it again. Though I will point out that Positively Adjusting DCV up even +2 will take similar opponents are drop the attack-to-hit from 11- to 9- and that is no small potatoes (on the other hand, against an opponent with a significantly higher OCV it has less effect, and none against AoE).

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Adjusting DCV

 

Have him buy extra DCV "only while aided". In fact, I might suggest he go ahead and buy all of the characteristics/powers with OIAD, with the alternate identity being his time-boosed self.

[Christopher]

Re: Adjusting DCV

 

Have him buy extra DCV "only while aided". In fact' date=' I might suggest he go ahead and buy all of the characteristics/powers with OIAD, with the alternate identity being his time-boosed self.[/quote']

We had this discussion here:

AID or Charactersitics with Limited Time and Extra Time to activate (basically rebuildung the AID as a different Mechanic)

I think this is a good chase for the later, since it does not suffers from the halving. And as long as you don't try that on enemys with UAA or allies with UOO (for affecting others, use drain - says so in the book), you should be fine.

 

Of course, how do you handle it if he slows the enemy aka Drain OCV and DCV?. One approach would be to say: OCV is a defense Power too (since it can be used for Block/Deflection/Refelction) so it get's halved too.

But having a boost/bonus OCV/DCV and a Drain OCV/DCV can be a very dangerous combination. Just take any equall number of OCV/DCV greater than 2. Now adjust his part +3, the other side by -3. It's effectively a -6 for the enemy, both at hitting and defense. Don't need to tell you what a -6 does with the Bell curve...

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Adjusting DCV

 

Either the Extra DCV while aided, or additional Aid for the DCV. It may not make sense SFX wise, but it is a balance issue, which is more important.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Adjusting DCV

 

Just try the most simple house rule possible: For purposes of Aid DCV is not a Defensive Power.

 

For an Aid I agree, but the Drain will have the same issue. On the one hand, DCV being a defensive power against a Drain is totally justifiable - it would be like giving everyone fighting that opponent a bonus to their OCV.

 

On the other hand, if a character gets an OCV bonus it is numerically just like all his opponents getting hit with a DCV Drain. So which is better, OCV bonus or DCV penalty? Sort of depends on which side is outnumbered. When fighting a single major bad guy, the DCV Drain is certainly better. But when fighting a horde it is easier to buff you and your friends.

 

On that note, I didn't want to go with just extra DCV only useable when Aided because this is supposed to work on teammates as well. If this was only going to boost the one character, I just would have let him buy extra DEX, OCV, DCV, and SPD with an activation cost and be done with it.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Adjusting DCV

 

Adjusting Defensive Powers can be tricky bits, they are half-effect against Adjustment Powers because it is incredibly effective to remove them. I like that it works for Positively Adjusting them from a consistency point of view, but it sometimes causes as many problems as it solves.

 

I wouldn't worry about "the points added/removed" really, if you add +2OCV or removed +1DCV - which is more effective will depend on the likely hood of other modifiers due to combat maneuvers, other influences (such as halving for Prone) etc.

 

If it were me - I'd leave it. That's how it works, it tends to work well, and I have yet to encounter any problems with these situations (granted, I've only been in 3 6E Games using these specific rules).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Adjusting DCV

 

He suggested that for a +½ Advantage' date=' he could apply the Aid to DCV twice, essentially buying the Advantage for another stat, but applying it to one stat two times. That sounds reasonable, until you consider someone building just a DCV Drain and buying the Advantage that way instead of paying for the extra dice.[/quote']

 

That's an issue for the advantage as a whole. I can buy 2d6 OCV Drain + 2d6 DCV Drain for a total of 20 + 20 = 40, or for 30 if I use a +1/2 advantage on one of them to add the other. At least a 4d6 DCV Drain would be superior in allowing Power Defense to apply only once.

 

That said, a 3d6 DEX, OCV,DCV, DCV again and SPD simultaneously is a +2 Advantage. If he Linked all the powers, four would get -1/2 limitations, so he'd pay (for a Drain) 30 + [20 x 4] = 110 compared to 90. 3d6 DCV + 3d6 Linked DCV would cost 50 rather than 45, or 48 if you apply -1/4 Linked to each of the two powers.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Adjusting DCV

 

For "Self Only" temporary increases to characteristics, I sometimes use the Time Limit Advantage, combined with the Costs END to Activate limitation.

 

For this situation, here's how it looks:

 

(Total: 48 Active Cost, 40 Real Cost) +5 DEX, Time Limit (1 Turn; +1/4) (12 Active Points); Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4) (Real Cost: 10) plus +2 OCV, Time Limit (1 Turn; +1/4) (12 Active Points); Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4) (Real Cost: 10) plus +2 DCV, Time Limit (1 Turn; +1/4) (12 Active Points); Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4) (Real Cost: 10) plus +1 SPD, Time Limit (1 Turn; +1/4) (12 Active Points); Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4) (Real Cost: 10)

 

It's a bit less expensive than using Aid, but OTOH, all 10pts go away after 1 turn, as opposed to Aid's fade rate of 5pts/turn.

[Christopher]

Re: Adjusting DCV

 

I wouldn't worry about "the points added/removed" really, if you add +2OCV or removed +1DCV - which is more effective will depend on the likely hood of other modifiers due to combat maneuvers, other influences (such as halving for Prone) etc.

 

If it were me - I'd leave it. That's how it works, it tends to work well, and I have yet to encounter any problems with these situations (granted, I've only been in 3 6E Games using these specific rules).

Since he want's to aid allies, this might be simply the best way.

Let's see what he can do:

4d6 AID (24 BP), 4 Simultaniously (+1 1/2), 60 AP. The maximum effect possible is 24. That Translates to +4 OCV, +2 DCV, +12 DEX, +2 SPD. When using standart effect rule each use would add to an ally:

+2 OCV, +1 DCV, +6 DEX, +1 SPD

[Lucius]

Re: Adjusting DCV

 

One solution might be to halve BOTH OCV and DCV for Drain, and halve NEITHER for Aid.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Can you Aid an Inherent Palindromedary?

[Christopher]

Re: Adjusting DCV

 

One solution might be to halve BOTH OCV and DCV for Drain, and halve NEITHER for Aid.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Can you Aid an Inherent Palindromedary?

That could make the boosted guy nearly impossible to hit when you don't have an AOE.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Adjusting DCV

 

That's an issue for the advantage as a whole. I can buy 2d6 OCV Drain + 2d6 DCV Drain for a total of 20 + 20 = 40, or for 30 if I use a +1/2 advantage on one of them to add the other. At least a 4d6 DCV Drain would be superior in allowing Power Defense to apply only once.

 

That said, a 3d6 DEX, OCV,DCV, DCV again and SPD simultaneously is a +2 Advantage. If he Linked all the powers, four would get -1/2 limitations, so he'd pay (for a Drain) 30 + [20 x 4] = 110 compared to 90. 3d6 DCV + 3d6 Linked DCV would cost 50 rather than 45, or 48 if you apply -1/4 Linked to each of the two powers.

 

Good point about Power Defense. That makes the using the Advantage to lump adjustment powers together seem a bit more reasonable.

[casualplayer]

Re: Adjusting DCV

 

Personally I feel that instead of hardcoding that "Half Effect for Defensive Powers" nerf into Adjustment Powers, leading me to think that Steve Long has Munchkin scars that haven't quite healed yet, I feel that it should be Magnifying Glass/GM's Approval/Option. I think it is a vestigial ruling from several editions ago prompted by someone getting pwned by Bruiser or something ridiculous like that. It used to be that a PD Drain chased with a punch was pretty scary, right up until you ran into someone with a smidge of Power Defense and they beat you into a pulp. There are some SETACers on this thread; how seriously was it considered and playtested dropping this, IMO needless, ruling for 6th?

 

If you want to keep the Adjustment Powers rule but work around it for the timekeeper character Overall Levels Usable by Others/Usable as Attack Only for things that would benefit from additional time works well. Lets the target have boosted OCV and/or DCV, pick their shot with extra DCs or ramp up the Time Chart for Skills that can be done quicker or benefit from time to make a leisurely decision.

[dmjalund]

Re: Adjusting DCV

 

I am of the opinion that if a tactic can do something, a power should also be able to do it.

 

 

 

 

but that's just me.

[Ice9]

Re: Adjusting DCV

 

. I think it is a vestigial ruling from several editions ago prompted by someone getting pwned by Bruiser or something ridiculous like that.

I'm guessing it was also to compensate for BODY/STUN/END being made considerably cheaper. With the halving, Drain STUN is on par with Mental Blast; without the halving, it would extremely strong (as much STUN as Blast does, except against Power Defense). Even with the halving, Drain END is highly effective and can really stomp certain characters.

 

Now for DCV, I don't think it's necessary. For one thing, Entangle is much better at the job - even a 1d6 Entangle will allow a guaranteed hit if timed right, and with the "does not take damage unless specifically targetted" advantage, it can provide an entire phase of them - by which point the target will probably be KO'd. And at 5 points per rank, DCV has not gotten much cheaper from 5E.

[Christopher]

Re: Adjusting DCV

 

Now for DCV' date=' I don't think it's necessary. For one thing, Entangle is much better at the job - even a 1d6 Entangle will allow a guaranteed hit if timed right[/quote']

Wich is why there is an ecouragement for the GM to not allow that in the books. Sorry, but regulary hitting a target with a 1d6 Entangle (that will never hold) just to drop it's DCV is just not how the power is inteded to work.

And if you try that to often the GM might allow "Casual STR" checks imediately after the hit to break it before the DCV drops, so you need to use a Entangle more on par with Drain DCV to get this done.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Adjusting DCV

 

Personally I feel that instead of hardcoding that "Half Effect for Defensive Powers" nerf into Adjustment Powers' date=' leading me to think that Steve Long has Munchkin scars that haven't quite healed yet, I feel that it should be Magnifying Glass/GM's Approval/Option. I think it is a vestigial ruling from several editions ago prompted by someone getting pwned by Bruiser or something ridiculous like that. It used to be that a PD Drain chased with a punch was pretty scary, right up until you ran into someone with a smidge of Power Defense and they beat you into a pulp. There are some SETACers on this thread; how seriously was it considered and playtested dropping this, IMO needless, ruling for 6th?[/quote']

 

I don't recall any serious discussions about removal of the "half effect for defenses" rule in the SETAC discussions. However, I would stress that Steve only asked SETAC about issues he wanted issues on. Steve had the 6th Ed Boards to identify issues of interest to the Hero community, and would have been well past that stage when he created the SETAC. The halving of adjustment powers on defensive abilities wasn't raised, as I recall, on those boards.

 

SETAC was not a playtest group - draft copies of the 6e rules weren't being given out, although Steve did provide drafts of small sections he wanted comment on. Timing would not have permitted in-depth playtesting. Realistically, for over 90% of the Hero System, the many groups who played 5e for years and post to these Boards provided the "playtesting" experience for 6e.

 

To me, the ability to drop a character's PD by 21 points with a 12 DC attack seems quite excessive. The result would, I expect, be restrictions or bans on such attacks and/or a significant increase in power defense purchases which would render adjustment powers useless. Halving the effect of adjustment powers on defenses seems a viable solution to that problem. It has certainly not rendered such abilities useless in the games I've played.

 

I'm guessing it was also to compensate for BODY/STUN/END being made considerably cheaper. With the halving' date=' Drain STUN is on par with Mental Blast; without the halving, it would extremely strong (as much STUN as Blast does, except against Power Defense). Even with the halving, Drain END is highly effective and can really stomp certain characters. [/quote']

 

This issue was definitely discussed. A 6d6 STUN Drain would be the equivalent of a 6d6 AVAD vs STUN, coupled with a reduced recovery rate caped at 5 per turn, in the absence of STUN being declared a defensive power. Halving the effect of adjustment powers on these abilities was, I think, necessary. Of course, I was a strong proponent for reducing the characteristic costs. In the case of BOD, its cost hasn't changed from 5e since it no longer grants 1 STUN per BOD purchased (half the value in 5e). In respect of STUN, END and REC, as I stated on the 6e boards, it is extremely infrequent for characters to buy more STUN and REC instead of boosting defenses, or more END and REC instead of reduced END. With the cost reductions, I think buying up the stats is a much more viable choice.

 

Now for DCV' date=' I don't think it's necessary. For one thing, Entangle is much better at the job - even a 1d6 Entangle will allow a guaranteed hit if timed right, and with the "does not take damage unless specifically targetted" advantage, it can provide an entire phase of them - by which point the target will probably be KO'd. And at 5 points per rank, DCV has not gotten much cheaper from 5E.[/quote']

 

More to the point, DCV is not cheaper than OCV, so the usual theory that defenses are cheaper than offense is not accurate when applied to CV. I don't think I would reduce the cost of DCV, or increase the cost of OCV. However, I agree this begs the question whether DCV should have adjustment effects halved. Assuming comparable CV levels across the board, a change to OCV has just as much impact as a change to DCV.

 

That said, with a 12 DC power able to modify either OCV or DCV by 4 points, an 11- to hit (62.5% chance) goes to 15- (about 95%) if we enhance OCV or reduce DCV. It drops to 7- (about 16%) if we enhance DCV or reduce OCV. These both seem pretty effective. Perhaps the answer is to halve the impact on OCV as well, not to remove the halving for DCV.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Adjusting DCV

 

Wich is why there is an ecouragement for the GM to not allow that in the books. Sorry, but regulary hitting a target with a 1d6 Entangle (that will never hold) just to drop it's DCV is just not how the power is inteded to work.

And if you try that to often the GM might allow "Casual STR" checks imediately after the hit to break it before the DCV drops, so you need to use a Entangle more on par with Drain DCV to get this done.

 

A 1d6 Entangle should be easily demolished by Casual STR. The addition of Casual use of other powers in 6e (a development I was quite happy to see) also allows it to be shredded by pretty much any attack power immediately. Problem solved?

[Christopher]

Re: Adjusting DCV

 

A 1d6 Entangle should be easily demolished by Casual STR. The addition of Casual use of other powers in 6e (a development I was quite happy to see) also allows it to be shredded by pretty much any attack power immediately. Problem solved?

Why do you constantly repeat what I said, while Quiting the text where I said it? Makes no sense to me.

 

Assuming comparable CV levels across the board' date=' a change to OCV has just as much impact as a change to DCV.[/quote']

I disagree. DCV is a classical, passive Defense. Like PD, ED, Power Defense and the others.

 

OCV can only be used active. Sure, there are defensive Uses (Block, Reflection) but each of them requires you to use a phase (by aborting, held action or just doing it).

Even when Stunned you still have halve your DCV, but can't use your OCV at all (since you can't take actions).

[casualplayer]

Re: Adjusting DCV

 

To me' date=' the ability to drop a character's PD by 21 points with a 12 DC attack seems quite excessive. The result would, I expect, be restrictions or bans on such attacks and/or a significant increase in power defense purchases which would render adjustment powers useless. Halving the effect of adjustment powers on defenses seems a viable solution to that problem. It has certainly not rendered such abilities useless in the games I've played.[/quote']

 

What kind of PD are we talking about? Intrinsic PD, force field generated PD, barrier provided PD or focus-based PD? The same Adjustment Power isn't going to work on all of them unless advantaged, so the active cost is going up or the DCs are going down. The kind of character that relies on single source defenses is scarce indeed, but if they operate with just elevated PD it is likely that PD is advantaged heavily with Resistant and maybe Hardened so again that will diminish the effect proportionally.

 

It's also irksome that in all the genres we are trying to emulate this kind of cursing or diminishment is often seen and terribly effective, from Hela hexing Thor's bones to be fragile to a Poke'mon's Growl to Anti-buff spells galore to stasis fields. Make it a suggestion but don't make it a rule that causes more problems than it solves.

[Christopher]

Re: Adjusting DCV

 

What kind of PD are we talking about? Intrinsic PD' date=' force field generated PD, barrier provided PD or focus-based PD? The same Adjustment Power isn't going to work on all of them unless advantaged[...']

What?

Sorry, but rules say otherwise. Drain ED/PD is Drain ED/PD no Matter what Power it is build into. You don't have to specify it's type. The only exception I know of:

PD/ED with Resistant (+1/2) Advantage is still considered normal PD, not "Resistant PD" for Drain/AID.

The inverse is true for Resistant PD/ED and Drain Normal PD/ED.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Adjusting DCV

 

It's also irksome that in all the genres we are trying to emulate this kind of cursing or diminishment is often seen and terribly effective, from Hela hexing Thor's bones to be fragile to a Poke'mon's Growl to Anti-buff spells galore to stasis fields. Make it a suggestion but don't make it a rule that causes more problems than it solves.

 

I feel that game balance is more important than genre simulation; there are lots of things that occur in fiction that absolutely suck when applied to a game situation.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Adjusting DCV

 

More to the point, DCV is not cheaper than OCV, so the usual theory that defenses are cheaper than offense is not accurate when applied to CV. I don't think I would reduce the cost of DCV, or increase the cost of OCV. However, I agree this begs the question whether DCV should have adjustment effects halved. Assuming comparable CV levels across the board, a change to OCV has just as much impact as a change to DCV.

 

That said, with a 12 DC power able to modify either OCV or DCV by 4 points, an 11- to hit (62.5% chance) goes to 15- (about 95%) if we enhance OCV or reduce DCV. It drops to 7- (about 16%) if we enhance DCV or reduce OCV. These both seem pretty effective. Perhaps the answer is to halve the impact on OCV as well, not to remove the halving for DCV.

 

This was the driving reason for posting this thread - why should OCV and DCV be affected differently? In my mind it does boil down to whether DCV is really in the same catagory of defensive powers as PD, ED, etc. and whether OCV should be there too (since it is used for blocking, but mostly for symmetry).

 

For a 12 DC power to modify OCV or DCV by 4 points is powerful, but the fade/return rate is fairly high unless the +1 Advantage to move it down the time chart to 1 minute is applied, which halves the effectiveness. Also, nobody ever won a combat with just a CV adjustment. It is a support power, and as such the character has to spend a action to activate it and then have a follow up attack to make it worthwhile (of course on a team this is less of a problem since the teammates benefit too). Personally I like to encourage the use of support powers, because it makes for more interesting combats than a simple exchanging of blows.

[Christopher]

Re: Adjusting DCV

 

This was the driving reason for posting this thread - why should OCV and DCV be affected differently? In my mind it does boil down to whether DCV is really in the same catagory of defensive powers as PD' date=' ED, etc. and whether OCV should be there too (since it [i']is[/i] used for blocking, but mostly for symmetry).

Like a said above:

The difference is, that DCV works passively. It can apply to dozens of attacks per Turn or even between your phases (enemy Multiattacks, for example).

OCV on the other hand requires the use of a phase to use, even for defensive purposes. And even if used for blocking, what are your real chances to block more than say 3 or 4 attacks per use? Fail one roll, you can't block anymore.

Being hit once because the enemy get's beyond your DCV? No problem, you still get it's full effect (unless the attack somehon lowers it).

 

Sure, there are attacks that ignore your DCV, but those are rare and have to pay a price (AP, Real Cost and DC calculation) for it.