Stereotypes about the Superhero genre

[phoenix240]

Doesn't it seem like almost everyone that dislikes the supers/comics as a genre hasn't heard or or read anything outside of the Superfriends? Most of the complaints seem based on shows writen for children when there are much more developed and mature stories in the genre. There has been for quite awhile yet most of the complaints seem to be based on stereotypes that calcifed 30 or more years ago and/or parodies of the superhero genre.

 

 

That's not to say no one has any legitimate reasons for their dislike, that everyone has to like comics/superhero rpgs or anything of the sort. You don't have to have a reason to not like a form of entertainment. But many of the more vocal complaints seem based on dated impressions, misinformation or, I hope I don't tick anyone off, a certain degree of willful ignorance.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Stereotypes about the Superhero genre

 

Comic geeks can take some of the rap too, but it's somewhat recursive...

The kiddie shows that said comics geeks grew up absorbing from their childhood Saturday Morning TV days followed the Silver Age rules instituted to Child-Proof comics by the McCarthy Era crackdown on Comics and the institution of the Comics Code.

 

So there is a disconnect.

Those who expect internal logic in their stories will often find Silver Age genre tropes to break their suspension of disbelief.

This is not aided by the occasional tendency of some segment of Fandom to occasionally go of very half cocked and very loud

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Stereotypes about the Superhero genre

 

A lot of times, yes, though that's not always the case. A lot of it has to do with how you run the games ... for example, my games would easily pass Comics Code Authority rules (aside from language), just because that's how I like it. I like heroic heroes, not morally gray anti-heroes ... however, I have at least one player who definitely prefers his characters morally ambiguous at best, so he has some reason not to like my superhero games as much. At the same time, such a game could be run that he would like.

[phoenix240]

Re: Stereotypes about the Superhero genre

 

That's what bugs me. You can have heroes, stories of right and wrong with child like morality and total black and white morality. IMO, Good comics pull this off very well. The broad stroke dismissal of supers are "cartoonish" is annoying to no end.

 

And they're "silly"? Unlike the hardcore realism of Vampires Posers, Cybernetic Sociopaths, etc. Role playing games are universally silly. That's what makes them fun.

 

I apologize for the ticked tone. Its mainly venting.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Stereotypes about the Superhero genre

 

Well bright colored morality does tend to grind against the morose, angsty stuff - which has a lot of fans.

Dark, angsty superheroes are surprisingly (to me) popular.

 

And I've certainly groaned at some of the lighter fare, but I got sick of the gritty almost immediately. I can handle darker tones, but I don't want my heroes punching through Viper agents' skulls. That's just not heroic to me. It might seem a little idiotic to have, say, Power Girl trading blows with Ultra Humanite's gorilla form since he's clearly not in her league power wise, but having her rip his spine out would be even less satisfying.

[phoenix240]

Re: Stereotypes about the Superhero genre

 

Well bright colored morality does tend to grind against the morose, angsty stuff - which has a lot of fans.

Dark, angsty superheroes are surprisingly (to me) popular.

 

I really shouldn't be so surprised to see the supers genre taking it on the chin on Rpg.net. And I'm not reallyl its just annoyed to see something I find worthwhile dragged through the dirt by people that seemed to have ignored the majority of its content. It's like (to me) dismissing all horror because you don't like Scooby Doo.

[Christopher]

Re: Stereotypes about the Superhero genre

 

And I've certainly groaned at some of the lighter fare' date=' but I got sick of the gritty almost immediately. I can handle darker tones, but I don't want my heroes punching through Viper agents' skulls. That's just not heroic to me. It might seem a little idiotic to have, say, Power Girl trading blows with Ultra Humanite's gorilla form since he's clearly not in her league power wise, but having her rip his spine out would be even less satisfying.[/quote']

Exactly.

The JL Epsido with the Justice Lords showed relatively good how the world would be, if they we just that notch different in their morals. And according to Mirror Batman, it even got boring after superman had lobotomised every villian.

[phoenix240]

Re: Stereotypes about the Superhero genre

 

Well bright colored morality does tend to grind against the morose, angsty stuff - which has a lot of fans.

Dark, angsty superheroes are surprisingly (to me) popular.

 

And I've certainly groaned at some of the lighter fare, but I got sick of the gritty almost immediately. I can handle darker tones, but I don't want my heroes punching through Viper agents' skulls. That's just not heroic to me. It might seem a little idiotic to have, say, Power Girl trading blows with Ultra Humanite's gorilla form since he's clearly not in her league power wise, but having her rip his spine out would be even less satisfying.

 

You can always go for the middle ground. Just because you can brutalize someone doesn't mean you will or have too. The physical confrontation can be handled "realistically" without it ending in gore and death. I'm not familiar with the Ultra Humanite but I assume from the example that he really doesn't pose much of a direct threat to the likes of Power Girl. She could subdue him without killing him most likely unless she chose not to. And that would make her a murderer not a hero, IMO.

 

That's another problem I have with much of the so called "modern" material. Not the violence or death. Fights are dangerous and many superhumans are tossing around very lethal abilities. But its often treated as if that is the only possible outcome and the ostensible heroes never seek an alternative or hold back in the slightest. Millar's "Authority" didn't even pay lip service to the idea of restraint or measured response. It would be similiar to a police officer that always went for their firearm in every situation.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Stereotypes about the Superhero genre

 

The Ultra Humanite is just Lex Luthor. I think he might predate Luthor, but they were essentially the same character until UH got trapped in a gorilla's body. Now he's Luthor with physical stats that would be threatening to a trained normal type hero. I have to look at it again, but I think the point of his thing with Power Girl was that he was plotting and scheming more than they were slugging it out. Also, you have to remember that PG, and all of the other Kryptonians, always have to hold back. Let's face it Luthor, Toyman, and all the rest would have been dead if Superman used the Authority's rules of engagement.

 

That is what bothers a lot of gamers who are new to the genre. They are so used to just using force to kill thier way through problems that they balk at having to let people live and go to jail. That, and the lack of immediate material gain, are that things that cause the biggest hiccups when trying to get someone into a supers game.

 

I have loved comics since I was ten years old, but I also don't think a lot of the Silver Age convetions make for a good game. I usually shoot for something along the lines of 1980s X-Men or Teen Titans. So more Bronze than Silver or Iron. I do like some of the Iron Age stuff about looking at what's going on behind the superbattles, but I try not to play it up to a depressing extent. I guess I shoot for a shade or two brighter than the Ultimates.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Stereotypes about the Superhero genre

 

You can always go for the middle ground. Just because you can brutalize someone doesn't mean you will or have too. The physical confrontation can be handled "realistically" without it ending in gore and death. I'm not familiar with the Ultra Humanite but I assume from the example that he really doesn't pose much of a direct threat to the likes of Power Girl. She could subdue him without killing him most likely unless she chose not to. And that would make her a murderer not a hero, IMO.

 

That's another problem I have with much of the so called "modern" material. Not the violence or death. Fights are dangerous and many superhumans are tossing around very lethal abilities. But its often treated as if that is the only possible outcome and the ostensible heroes never seek an alternative or hold back in the slightest. Millar's "Authority" didn't even pay lip service to the idea of restraint or measured response. It would be similiar to a police officer that always went for their firearm in every situation.

 

Err, wasn't that the whole point of "Authority"?

[phoenix240]

Re: Stereotypes about the Superhero genre

 

Err' date=' wasn't that the whole [i']point[/i] of "Authority"?

 

I wouldn't say that, not at first anyway. The Authority was originally an attempt to see what would happen if extremely powerful superhumans became more provactive and aggressive in righting the wrongs of world as they saw them. Not just supervillains more "real" problems. I don't agree with the way much of it was presented but the group did have something of a moral core in the first few issues (with Eillis as writer) and the stories were interesting in many ways if grim.

 

Then Millar took over and they became thugs cracking joke about punching people in the brain and fighting opponents that were apparently made of tin foil and spun sugar. The man is a shock jock that finds a way to wreck any project he gets his hands on with his juvenile LCD crap. IMO, anyway. The only good thing he's done has been The Ultimates and even that went downhill rapidly. Again, just my opinion.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Stereotypes about the Superhero genre

 

It must be admitted, the superhero genre has, over the years, had a lot of phenomenally silly storylines and characters, particularly in the Silver Age. Furthermore, there have been a lot of silly superhero cartoons aired, some intentionally so, some not. Despite the fact that it hasn't had a new episode in close to 30? years, Superfriends remains a very enduring image of the superhero to many (and is why Aquaman can't catch a break), and that show's plots and science were positively atrocious (which isn't to say it wasn't fun to watch).

[phoenix240]

Re: Stereotypes about the Superhero genre

 

To be fair though, many genres have a huge history of silly behind them. Fantasy has decades of drek. Martials Arts films are considered almost by definition among some, etc. Then there's those "hard science Transhuman Sci fi" games where Nanotech= magic and if you build a computer with a processor thats big enough and fast enough it will spontaneously turn into a god. Sucks that comics get grilled by gamers when so much else gets a pass.

 

People can't buy into superheroes (and look down on those who do) because they're too "unrealistic" but I'm supposed to accept that a dude in metal suit with sharp stick can kill a flying a T-rex with a built in flame thrower and magical power in personal combat?

[phoenix240]

Re: Stereotypes about the Superhero genre

 

The Ultra Humanite is just Lex Luthor. I think he might predate Luthor, but they were essentially the same character until UH got trapped in a gorilla's body. Now he's Luthor with physical stats that would be threatening to a trained normal type hero. I have to look at it again, but I think the point of his thing with Power Girl was that he was plotting and scheming more than they were slugging it out. Also, you have to remember that PG, and all of the other Kryptonians, always have to hold back. Let's face it Luthor, Toyman, and all the rest would have been dead if Superman used the Authority's rules of engagement.

 

That is what bothers a lot of gamers who are new to the genre. They are so used to just using force to kill thier way through problems that they balk at having to let people live and go to jail. That, and the lack of immediate material gain, are that things that cause the biggest hiccups when trying to get someone into a supers game.

 

I have loved comics since I was ten years old, but I also don't think a lot of the Silver Age convetions make for a good game. I usually shoot for something along the lines of 1980s X-Men or Teen Titans. So more Bronze than Silver or Iron. I do like some of the Iron Age stuff about looking at what's going on behind the superbattles, but I try not to play it up to a depressing extent. I guess I shoot for a shade or two brighter than the Ultimates.

 

I have to admit so called "Modern" age games are an easier sell unless the group is composed of real genre fiends.

[csyphrett]

Re: Stereotypes about the Superhero genre

 

I don't mind heroes as a genre. They are everywhere. If you don't like the writer, then what he's using for his story doesn't matter.

CES