Casual STR and Grab

[quozaxx]

A character would like to use his Casual Strength to grab an unconscious npc and run.

Actually use him as a shield. And then attack with another Power because he used casual Strength.

 

(It's an unusual situation)

 

The npc is unconscious enough to make him an unresisting object.

 

Now, I do know that Grab is an Attack Action.

I also, know that the GM can use casual Strength for other situations other than doors and entangles.

 

I am the GM. One of the players wants this to happen

Another does not and pointing out the rules that it is an attack action.

 

So, as a GM (or just your 2 cents worth), would you allow him to grab and attack or not?

 

Please hurry with the answer. I go on vacation tomorrow.

[Christopher]

Re: Casual STR and Grab

 

My 2-cents and the wording from Throw Maneuver:

"Generally speaking, as long as an object is non-resisting and in no way difficult to grasp or lift, a character shouldn’t have to use a Grab to pick it up if he can lift it with his Casual STR." 6E2 80.

So I would tend towards not allowing it as free, casual use of STR.

 

The best he can do:

Grab and lift him in this Round or Grab and throw him against however is the problem.

Make a Grab-by (6E2 67), but that would cause penalties.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Casual STR and Grab

 

Multiple Attack 6E2 73

 

Perform a Grab By while making another attack. Specifically Grab and Block (APG 168). Basically, it's a -2 OCV Block maneuver.

 

There is a lot of leeway under the rules about what can be part of a Multiple Attack. It is a Full Round action (unless you have Rapid Attack) and puts you at half DCV.

 

Using Casual STR means that the character will not be penalized further (e.g. Encumbrance) for carrying a person.

 

I think this is a perfectly reasonable action and very dramatic. In essence, both players are right.

 

When I GM I don't often spend time looking up the rules. The basic Multiple Attack mechanics are Full Phase, -2 OCV (per attack, cumulative), 1/2 DCV, if one attack fails the subsequent attacks fail. If you can remember that, you can pretty much cover any situation.

 

Does he have to make an attack roll to pick up the unconscious character? Yes, but the character is 0 DCV so even though he will be -5 OCV (-3 for Grab By and -2 for Multiple Attack), he still has a good shot at it. His 2nd attack will be at -2 OCV as well.

 

Now, you can't combine defensive maneuvers with offensive maneuvers, so technically this phase he can't block with the body BUT since he declared that's what he wants to do, I would have the body provide him cover (+2 DCV) until he can abort to a block. That's a modest reward during this phase because he is at -4 DCV and then halved for his multiple attack action, but that is the price you pay for being cool.

 

Player: "But I am using the body as a shield, why am I worse off DCV-wise"

GM: "You aren't. The problem is that you are trying to do too much in a single phase. It is definitely a cool sequence of actions, but doing that much in a single phase, while moving, means you can't focus on your defense. If you don't like it, do a Grab and Block this phase and move on your next phase."

 

Use of Casual STR does not constitute a free action, it just means that you aren't exerting yourself. Grabbing something, shoving something, all have to be accounted for in your actions.

 

Does that help? Have a nice vacation.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Casual STR and Grab

 

My 2-cents and the wording from Throw Maneuver:

"Generally speaking, as long as an object is non-resisting and in no way difficult to grasp or lift, a character shouldn’t have to use a Grab to pick it up if he can lift it with his Casual STR." 6E2 80.

So I would tend towards not allowing it as free, casual use of STR.

 

The best he can do:

Grab and lift him in this Round or Grab and throw him against however is the problem.

Make a Grab-by (6E2 67), but that would cause penalties.

 

I also agree with Christopher. It is up to you as a GM whether a limp body is easy to grasp - I would say no, as it is an unbalanced ragdoll with no clear "handles". I might allow grabbing the body with casual STR to not be an attack action if you just grabbed an ankle or something and dragged it, but grabbing it with sufficient control to use it as a shield I think would require enough focus to warrant an attack action.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Casual STR and Grab

 

I also agree with Christopher. It is up to you as a GM whether a limp body is easy to grasp - I would say no' date=' as it is an unbalanced ragdoll with no clear "handles".[/quote']

 

Depends how strong the lifting character is. Size differences may also affect my judgement in one direction or another.

 

The general tone of the game would also be a big deciding factor here...

[Christopher]

Re: Casual STR and Grab

 

Here is a solution with perhaps a little bit better values than teh Multiattack:

Make a Grab by to take the character and get closer to the enemy. That way he will (hopefully) have the character to use as shield in the next aborted phase and will be closer to the enemy.

But: He has to declare how far he wants to run after grabbing the target. And if he misses the grab he still moves that distance and stand now with al lteh penaltys in front of the enemy....

Grab by itself will put him at -3 OCV and -4 DCV.

[Zane_Marlowe]

Re: Casual STR and Grab

 

I'd remind the player that drawing a weapon is a 1/2 phase action, so picking up a body is also likely at least that. If it's a grab-by, then they can move and grab in one phase, but the benefit in that case is a full move and a grab action. The rules for a multiple attack are up to the GM to adjudicate, but I'd be reluctant to have a full move, picking up, and blocking in the same phase. I might be inclined to give the player some DCV for cover now that he's got the human shield, but that's not a block maneuver.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Casual STR and Grab

 

I'd remind the player that drawing a weapon is a 1/2 phase action' date=' so picking up a body is also likely at least that. If it's a grab-by, then they can move and grab in one phase, but the benefit in that case is a full move and a grab action. The rules for a multiple attack are up to the GM to adjudicate, but I'd be reluctant to have a full move, picking up, and blocking in the same phase. I might be inclined to give the player some DCV for cover now that he's got the human shield, but that's not a block maneuver.[/quote']

 

Sounds about right to me.

[Christopher]

Re: Casual STR and Grab

 

So we now have two solutions:

 

Multiattack with Grab and Block (as per the Rules in APG 200 and if the GM allows it):

Multiattack halves the DCV and would give a -4 OCV penalty (-2 for second action, -2 for mixing defensive Maneuvers with offensive ones).

Grab is at -1 OCV, -2 DCV. Block would be +2 OCV, +2 DCV. So, according to the Multiattack rules this would result in:

A Grab Maneuver at -5 OCV vs Target with 0 DCV.

A Block maneuver at -5 OCV (it uses the worst Combat Modifiers for all maneuver; 6E2 76, right collumn), plus bonus for having a "shield" and other situational modifiers.

DC is at -2 and halved. Can not use Skill-levels that apply only to Block or to Grab. And he either has to stand within hth range of the target or needs to stand within half move range and needs Rapid Attack.

Edit: He is also at -4 OMCV and halved DMCV.

 

Grab-by:

He can start at a distance from the Target, run, hopefully Grab and then continue to run. This will either result in him:

Being at -3 OCV, -4 DCV plus having a shield and having crossed some space.

Or being at -3 OCV, -4DCV and standing non way to close to his enemy...

[Doc Samson]

Re: Casual STR and Grab

 

I vaguely remember that the origin of the Grab By maneuver was in part inspired by this type of situation.

[fbdaury]

Re: Casual STR and Grab

 

Anyone have 5th or 6th ed Martial Arts book- Grappling Block Maneuver seems to cover what you are asking about, at least to my mind.

[Christopher]

Re: Casual STR and Grab

 

Anyone have 5th or 6th ed Martial Arts book- Grappling Block Maneuver seems to cover what you are asking about' date=' at least to my mind.[/quote']

As I understand it you Block the attack, but instead of just deflecting it you Grab the Limb (or Weapon) in question - but only when you declared Grapping Block as your action, not when aborting to it.

 

Maybe you can even grab any limb - the enemys strikes at you and you use to opening to grab his throat for example.

[fbdaury]

Re: Casual STR and Grab

 

As I understand it you Block the attack, but instead of just deflecting it you Grab the Limb (or Weapon) in question - but only when you declared Grapping Block as your action, not when aborting to it.

 

Well, that is not the case- check APG page 168, where it outlines the Grab and Block Maneuver- grab an opponent and at any time while they are held you may use them to block an incoming attack.

[Christopher]

Re: Casual STR and Grab

 

Well' date=' that is not the case- check APG page 168, where it outlines the Grab and Block Maneuver- grab an opponent and at any time while they are held you may use them to block an incoming attack.[/quote']

You are right, but it is limited to one block - no conscutive blocks that way. And the entire thing is under optional rules for grab.

[fbdaury]

Re: Casual STR and Grab

 

You are right' date=' but it is limited to one block - no conscutive blocks that way. And the entire thing is under optional rules for grab.[/quote']

 

Actually its limited to Once per phase but I'm guessing that's what you meant... However, the actual Grappling Block Maneuver in HSMA or Ultimate Martial Artist functions this way, so if that maneuver is used (as I originally suggested) then this is how it would function.

[Ice9]

Re: Casual STR and Grab

 

I think Grappling Block is different than Grab and Block, despite having a similar name. I know that in 5E, it was specifically a "someone tries to punch you, you grab their arm" maneuver, and I don't think it was changed in 6E.

[fbdaury]

Re: Casual STR and Grab

 

I think Grappling Block is different than Grab and Block' date=' despite having a similar name. I know that in 5E, it was specifically a "someone tries to punch you, you grab their arm" maneuver, and I don't think it was changed in 6E.[/quote']

 

The Maneuver is a Grab one limb and Block- hence, Grab and Block- I'm not sure what you are seeing that makes it not one, but more to the point- even if you just use a normal Grab Maneuver, you can then block with the held target, using them as a human shield- which was what the OP was asking about, is it not?

 

Just reread the original post, missed the part about another attack- I guess that could be done using the Multiple Power Attack but that only works if he uses another attack against the now- held target...

[Christopher]

Re: Casual STR and Grab

 

I think Grappling Block is different than Grab and Block' date=' despite having a similar name. I know that in 5E, it was specifically a "someone tries to punch you, you grab their arm" maneuver, and I don't think it was changed in 6E.[/quote']

That is how I pictured it too. I am also certain it is written there somewhere.