Evasion Talent

[Folded]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

But wouldn't the Desolidification only last for the duration of the attack' date=' allowing you to attack back on your next phase?[/quote']

 

However, a smart group of agents could just keep hitting you with AoE stuff and keep you Desolid more or less indefinitely (delaying actions appropriately). Hard to coordinate, but doable. They won't be hurting you, but you'll have problems doing anything useful until you manage to get out of their effective range. And if the Desolid is on an Abort, rather than a Trigger, then you've used your attack action for the next phase, anyway.

 

Just thinking, you could replace Lucius' Extra-Dimensional Movement above (I like that option, but variety & spice) with a Summon Cover ability, or even an Instant Barrier with a variety of SFX.

[randian]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

But wouldn't the Desolidification only last for the duration of the attack' date=' allowing you to attack back on your next phase?[/quote']

Only in the sense that all powers that you turn off at the beginning of your next phase do that. It was designed as an active power turned on during your phase. I didn't use Trigger or somesuch to make it turn on automatically in response to an attack. It was more of an escape or trap avoidance power. Trigger would have made it more effective, but too costly.

[ErikModi]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

Ah, I see.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

*sigh*

 

50% Damage Reduction, Requires a skill roll. Simple.

 

If the attack "hits" you make your skill roll and take half damage. If the attack "misses", you make a Dive For Cover roll for your character and take no damage. Pretty much exactly how the power works in D20, with the addition of the skill roll or Dex roll.

[Blazar]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

Use teleport, no noncombat, trigger (about to take damage from an aoe), AGI roll, only to teleport to a location in the direction the character is facing, or withing a 180 arc or something like that, only for a distance just outside of the aoe.

[Folded]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

*sigh*

 

50% Damage Reduction, Requires a skill roll. Simple.

 

If the attack "hits" you make your skill roll and take half damage. If the attack "misses", you make a Dive For Cover roll for your character and take no damage. Pretty much exactly how the power works in D20, with the addition of the skill roll or Dex roll.

 

Well, geez, yeah, if you want to make it simple and easily understood...

[ErikModi]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

Now, I'm not trying to exactly mimic the effects of the Evasion talent from D20. Rather, I'm trying to create an ability with a similar effect: mitigation/avoidance of damage from AoE attacks. It doesn't have to precisely mimic what Evasion does in D20 because, as was pointed out, AoEs dont' work precisely the same in Hero as they do in D20.

 

So far, it seems like the basic Desolidification vs. Damage is the best option.

[Folded]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

Desolid can cause a lot of secondary effects (i.e. problems). The cleanest way to do it is buy a normal form of defense (PD/ED, Damage Reduction/Negation) with the Limitation Only vs. AoE attacks. I know you have the whole irrational thing going, but it really is the simplest and most effective answer. Another option would be to buy CSL's with the Dive For Cover maneuver, which might play into the character's concept better (he's already quick and tricky, this makes him moreso).

 

Oh, and since you're new to Hero, be warned that this kind of debate can go on for a very long time, which is part of the juicy goodness that is Hero.

[ErikModi]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

Oh, I'm not exactly new. My friend as taken runs at four Hero campaigns over the years, going back to Fifth Edition. There's just some abilities that don't plug neatly into the lists of powers, and require some. . . finessing

 

I tend to want to avoid using Dive to Cover for two reasons. The first is that it isn't entirely reliable. The second, and much bigger concern for me, is that it takes your action. I want to keep the pressure on the bad guys, not spend all my actions diving for cover.

[Folded]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

Oh, I'm not exactly new. My friend as taken runs at four Hero campaigns over the years, going back to Fifth Edition. There's just some abilities that don't plug neatly into the lists of powers, and require some. . . finessing

 

I tend to want to avoid using Dive to Cover for two reasons. The first is that it isn't entirely reliable. The second, and much bigger concern for me, is that it takes your action. I want to keep the pressure on the bad guys, not spend all my actions diving for cover.

 

I should have said "New to the Hero Boards", then. Welcome, either way. The Limited Defenses option is going to give you what you want. And Hero is all about figuring out how the concept that doesn't plug neatly into the powers gets described and finessed.

[ErikModi]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

Thank you.

 

And yeah, I've already seen some pretty interesting power builds!

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

.....be warned that this kind of debate can go on for a very long time' date=' which is part of the juicy goodness that is Hero.[/quote']

 

debate?

nah.. just friendly advice.

 

There are a couple of other issues/questions that aren't readily apparent when using a limited defense power (PD/ED, Damage Reduction/Negation) approach.

1. Those defense powers are not always going to apply vs. the attack (if it has the Attack vs. Limited Defense Advantage).

2. What happens if the character wants go go 'fully defensive'? (actually spends an action to use Dive for Cover or Flying Dodge if purchased as part of an appropriate Martial Arts package). Does he get any benefit since his power special effect is in essence 'maximum defense without effort'?

 

It's probably worth thinking about these issues ahead of time before it comes up during combat in a game.

 

I strongly recommend spending some time trying to describe in NON-GAMING terms what is happening when the character uses this ability to avoid attacks. The more detailed the better. I say this because it still seems like you are trying to translate mechanics from one system to another instead of defining the special effect that the mechanics are trying to model. I know it seems weird because very few other systems ask players to peek under the hood of mechanics this way but in HERO it is the KEY getting the most out of the ability creation rules.

 

It also seems like you are equating a Phase to one 'Round' of action. It is worth noting that what most other systems consider to be a round actually matches up better with a HERO Turn (6-12 seconds). A character's SPEED then determines how many extra things (move, attack, etc..) a character can do in a 'Round/Turn'. Combine this with HERO's Multiple Attack rules and even more flexibility is afforded. When it comes to Initiative a Higher SPD sometimes trumps a higher DEX (If you ignore Phase 12/Surprise a 4 SPD always goes before a 3, 6 before a 5, etc.. with diminishing returns the higher you go). If you embrace this frame of thinking it allows Delaying a Phase as more of a way to enable actions of opportunity within HERO (something hard to model otherwise in HERO).

 

Another rambling idea to consider.

This avoidance ability you are wanting to create seems awful close to being an absolute. How do you want it to interact with attacks that are specifically designed to nearly always hit (like my previous 'Heat Vision' example, Superman can usually hit anything with it that he can see). Other good examples are D&D's Magic Missile and Darkseid's Omega Beams. All are usually modeled in HERO with some type of AOE Accurate attack. Good movement and skill is then usually the only way to avoid getting hit by way of an abort to Dive for Cover.

 

Anyway, just ideas that have been discussed before...

[ErikModi]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

The latter will come up in pretty much any "defense power," won't it?

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

Use teleport' date=' no noncombat, trigger (about to take damage from an aoe), AGI roll, only to teleport to a location in the direction the character is facing, or withing a 180 arc or something like that, only for a distance just outside of the aoe.[/quote']

 

say...that's not bad. I allow characters to use Teleport to Dive For Cover if they hadn't yet teleported that phase. This setup would be like an automatic version of that.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

Now, I'm not trying to exactly mimic the effects of the Evasion talent from D20. Rather, I'm trying to create an ability with a similar effect: mitigation/avoidance of damage from AoE attacks. It doesn't have to precisely mimic what Evasion does in D20 because, as was pointed out, AoEs dont' work precisely the same in Hero as they do in D20.

 

So far, it seems like the basic Desolidification vs. Damage is the best option.

 

If you want the character to be able to completely avoid the effects of damage, then yes, Desolid works very well for that. I have used such constructs in the past to create a power where the character could perfectly dodge any attack. I used it with one NPC to great effect on the PC's in my campaign. So much so, one of the characters sought out a master to learn a counter technique that could defeat his perfect dodge. The next time they met the PC won....barely.

[ErikModi]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

I strongly recommend spending some time trying to describe in NON-GAMING terms what is happening when the character uses this ability to avoid attacks.

 

That's easy. The character is inspired by Symbiote Spider-Man (think Ultimate Spider-Man from Spider-Man: Shattered Dimensions.) He has a number of "precognitive" powers thanks to the alien symbiote's abilities. Precognitive Offense and Precognitive Defense are increases to OCV/DCV respectively, that make the character extremely accurate with his blows and very hard to hit in return. His defenses have recently been raised by adding Resistant Allocatable protection, 4 points each PD, ED, and Power Defense. For this ability, his precognition and speed are most important, allowing him to contort his body around sustained bursts of machine-gun fire, shrapnel from an explosion, gouts of flame, etc. He effectively dodges all the damage-causing effects of an AoE attack by not getting hit by them. I admit this raises a bit of problem when considering pervasive effects of an AoE attack, such as the pressure wave of an explosion or a massive fireball, but for most AoEs, the ability to know where you won't get hit by it is sufficient. I have toyed with the idea of really making it a kind of Desolidification, since we have established that they alien symbiote has access to interdimensional space (it's where the symbiote itself is "stored" when not in heroic identity, and it draws on interdimensional energy to generate excess mass necessary for other "symbiote tricks," such as tendrils and an increase in overall mass required by "rage mode.") In this instance, drawing inspiration from Spider-Man: Edge of Time, the ability would behave somewhat like Amazing Spider-Man's dodge ability, where he spends a brief period of time invulnerable. The symbiote would, instead of drawing interdimensional energy and converting it to extra mass, take its own mass (and the mass of its host) and convert them to interdimensional energy, essentially "blinking" in and out of existence.

 

I did have another, more Venom-inspired idea. . . a shield made of symbiotic mass, which would be interposed between the character and the attack. This would be written up as a Barrier, and forgo any attempt at actually "evading" the attack, instead "blocking" it.

[Christopher]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

*sigh*

 

50% Damage Reduction, Requires a skill roll. Simple.

Yes and most likely to expensive. Damage Reduction is one of the most expensive powers.

 

I tend to want to avoid using Dive to Cover for two reasons. The first is that it isn't entirely reliable. The second' date=' and much bigger concern for me, is that it takes your action. I want to keep the pressure on the bad guys, not spend all my actions diving for cover.[/quote']

Thats's why I have written up this above, wich seems to have been ignored:

2. You could work on the "not being there":

Spedsters tend to have good DEX and SPD, so dive for cover is easy. But still costs a phase.

You can buy limted SPD. For example with "6 SPD" and

Superspeed Reflexes: "+3 SPD, only to Abort"

you get Phases in Segments 2 3 4 6 7 8 10 11 12. The bold ones are the unlimited ones, the others segments are only for Aborting (inlcuding Dive For cover).

 

Also worth a look is "Trigger" on Movement:

Side Step: Naked Advantage on up to 12m Running: Trigger (Being Targetted by Area of Effect Attacks; Activation takes no Time; Requires half phase action to reset +1/2); 6 AP. 1 END

Unhitable: Naked Advantge on up to 12m Running: Trigger (Being Targetted by Area of Effect Attacks; Activation takes no Time; Automatically Resets after activation; +1); 12 AP, 1 END

Not 100% certain that is rules legal to use trigger/movement that way. But in any chase the APG/FAQ says: Activating a trigger that takes no time before the enemy action (an attack) takes effect requires eitehr aborting to that action or win a DEX Contest with the attacker (followign the Rules on 6E2 19 for such actions).

It doesn't expose your character as much as Dive for Cover does. But the End cost would be in addition to the movement you "triggered".

The first gives you phases useable only for defense. One downside of the Limited SPD is that it still follows the abort Rules (can't abort in when already acted that segment).

The other gives you free Dive for Cover actions, but you still have to win the Dex-Contest or Abort to do it in time. The easiet/cheapest way to make this more riable are Skill Levels (6E1 88): +X to Win a Dex Contest to Act first (2 pt per +1).

 

Another rambling idea to consider.

This avoidance ability you are wanting to create seems awful close to being an absolute. How do you want it to interact with attacks that are specifically designed to nearly always hit (like my previous 'Heat Vision' example, Superman can usually hit anything with it that he can see). Other good examples are D&D's Magic Missile and Darkseid's Omega Beams. All are usually modeled in HERO with some type of AOE Accurate attack. Good movement and skill is then usually the only way to avoid getting hit by way of an abort to Dive for Cover.

When they are build with Area of Effect, they are affect by anything that works against Area of Effect. If they are build with just a lot of extra OCV to mimik their "Lightning Speed", then not. You can either buy 2-point CSL for them or put extra OCV in the same (fixed) Slot as the attack itself (the later is clunkier).

But generally trying to mimic an absolute ability from another system is not a good idea.

 

I have toyed with the idea of really making it a kind of Desolidification' date=' since we have established that they alien symbiote has access to interdimensional space (it's where the symbiote itself is "stored" when not in heroic identity, and it draws on interdimensional energy to generate excess mass necessary for other "symbiote tricks," such as tendrils and an increase in overall mass required by "rage mode.") In this instance, drawing inspiration from Spider-Man: Edge of Time, the ability would behave somewhat like Amazing Spider-Man's dodge ability, where he spends a brief period of time invulnerable. The symbiote would, instead of drawing interdimensional energy and converting it to extra mass, take its own mass (and the mass of its host) and convert them to interdimensional energy, essentially "blinking" in and out of existence.[/quote']

One problem is that you usually can't turn a power on and turn it off again in the same phase. It would make him immune against others attacks.

Have you considered building the Symbiont as AI/Computer? That way it could hold it's action for defensive stunts like this. And this power could have utiltiy for movement (wich is what this desolid is designed for. The 100% Damage Reduction is only a "side effect").

 

I did have another' date=' more Venom-inspired idea. . . a shield made of symbiotic mass, which would be interposed between the character and the attack. This would be written up as a Barrier, and forgo any attempt at actually "evading" the attack, instead "blocking" it.[/quote']

Not always the Power with the best fitting name is also the best mechanic.

 

You could make an "unbreakable Forcefield" with Desolidification/100 Damage reduction (despite "looking" like a Barrier), or a "Dimension Shift" with Barrier (you are elswhere, but to much energy at once might go "through" the dimensional field and hit you or even disrupt/break it).

[Martin2]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

One of my players has a high DCV (15 when on full defence!) but only 10 PD / 10 ED non of it resistant. He is my famed teleporter (the route of most of my character problems ). This is the simulated Night Stalker from X men "you can not hit me as I am not there power!"

 

He has a similar problem with AOE.

 

Dive for a cover can only be used before an attack is resolved isnt it?

 

I declare your are going to be shot so he can then decide to dive for cover not knowing it to be a AOE attack or not.

 

So on most attacks he can waste future goes dodging non AOE attacks.

 

How about a simple +DCV, only versus AOE, requires a roll to add to the 3 DCV for AOE?

 

Or a short range teleport triggered by an AOE making a simulated Dive for cover to get out of the AOE but requires a roll?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

.....

I declare your are going to be shot so he can then decide to dive for cover not knowing it to be a AOE attack or not.

...

 

That is only true if facing a previously unknown opponent or one with an attack that has the IPE Advantage.

 

Normally if a character has 2 or more different attacks under the same sfx (one with AOE, one normal, one with AP, etc...) they will be recognizably different from one another. And recognizable before an attack roll is made.

[ErikModi]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

And you can't apply DCV to AoE attacks. Ever. (Unless they are Selective)

 

AoE affects just that, an area. The attack roll for an standard AoE is never compared to a character's DCV, so DCV is worthless against AoE attacks.

[Martin2]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

Normally if a character has 2 or more different attacks under the same sfx (one with AOE, one normal, one with AP, etc...) they will be recognizably different from one another. And recognizable before an attack roll is made.

 

OK so an attack can be identified before you decide what to do.

 

So even a weapon SFX with the same source but multiple effects (Normal Blast, AOE, AP etc) can be identified if prevously effected by the same source.

 

I had read it as "a person is pointing a weapon at you. Do you want to take a deffensive action (including dive for cover)?"

 

Now its "a weapon is being pointed at you, from the glow just before it fires it looks to be the AOE blast you / your team mate took earlier. Do you want to dive for cover?"

 

If they were lobbing a grenade or from a one shot AOE weapon I would have allowed it. But an AOE from a Multipower gun I did not. But I will change it from now onwards

[ErikModi]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

I would say you wouldn't even have to look for "special tells" in a gun. An M-16 with underslung M-203 behaves quite differently when it fires bullets than when it fires grenades. In that split second you have when the attack is coming at you, you can probably tell what basic kind of attack it is, and therefore what defensive maneuvers will and won't work against it.

[randian]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

I had read it as "a person is pointing a weapon at you. Do you want to take a defensive action (including dive for cover)?"

Forcing the player to guess at what they should do makes defensive maneuvers worthless. It's the sort of "gotcha" thing I dislike from GMs.

[Christopher]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

That is only true if facing a previously unknown opponent or one with an attack that has the IPE Advantage.

 

Normally if a character has 2 or more different attacks under the same sfx (one with AOE, one normal, one with AP, etc...) they will be recognizably different from one another. And recognizable before an attack roll is made.

In general the character has to guess. With some things like Grenades (and other thrown Foci/Charges) it's rather easy.

 

The Rules on Obviousness/"What is Percieved" specifically denote it is percieved "that the power is used". I am not 100% certain that this means one can identify the powers before being used, but seeing it once is enough to target it with an Adjustment Power (6E1 135: “I’m targeting the Blast I saw him use three minutes ago”), so I guess this could be okay.

 

I once asked to Community how to build a "Analyze Attack Pattern"-Power that deals exaclty with that question: "Will he use an AOE or normal Targettign Attack?"

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/84943-A-dozen-and-onre-Idea?p=2160107#post2160107 (Nr. 6)

While this raised a lot of "Danger: Metagaming" flags, I got an answer:

Clairsentience with Detect Attack' date=' Precognition; Only One Phase Ahead[/font']

It's Pretty costly, however: Clairsentience (Single Sense: Detect Attack; 20 pt), +20 Preconition; 40 AP, Precognition Only (-1), Instant (-1/2); 16 Real Cost

(Plus a "Detect Attack", 5 Points + 2 Sense Adder).

 

And you can't apply DCV to AoE attacks. Ever. (Unless they are Selective)

 

AoE affects just that, an area. The attack roll for an standard AoE is never compared to a character's DCV, so DCV is worthless against AoE attacks.

You could use "Change Environment" give extra Range Penalties to Attacks and limit that to "Only for Targetting Area of Effect". You could even exclude yourself (Personal Imunity). But all others will be fully affected (you could make it AOE, Selective or Acurate).

But that is clunky and costs more Real Points than it has utility.

 

And of coruse there is always to option to somehow transform the target/it's Power, but let's not start with that.

 

Forcing the player to guess at what they should do makes defensive maneuvers worthless. It's the sort of "gotcha" thing I dislike from GMs.

Of course, the GM should consider that his villians have no knowledge of the characters attack to begin with either.

 

Also consider Teamwork: When one attacks the enemy with an AOE and the other with a normal Anti DCV-Attack, the enemy will be hit by at least one. The same goes when the enemy has already blocked/dive for cover earlier and can't abort again.

[Martin2]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

Forcing the player to guess at what they should do makes defensive maneuvers worthless. It's the sort of "gotcha" thing I dislike from GMs.

 

The game I am running is Champions. So that gun (or pointed finger in some cases) can fire single shots, auto fire, AOE (in electricity, fire, radiation, cold etc), entangle you, AOE entangle, polymorph you a frog etc.

 

Deciding what to do is a little more difficult then the example of the rifle with under slung grenade launcher or just a person flinging what looks like a grenade at you.