Evasion Talent

[ErikModi]

I'm wondering how to go about building something not unlike the Evasion talent/ability from various d20 games. For those unfamiliar, I'll use the Star Wars Saga Edition variant:

 

Normally, when taking damage from an area effect attack, if the attack "hits" the character takes full damage, and if the attack "misses" the character still takes half damage. With the Evasion talent, a character takes half damage from an area-effect attack if it hits, and no damage if it misses.

 

I'd really like to design a similar ability for my Symbiote Spider-Man inspired hero, but I'm kind of stuck as to how to go about it.

[Escafarc]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

Desolidfication, Only to Prevent Damage, Requires Skill Roll.

[ErikModi]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

That could work. . . thanks!

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

I'm not sure what is meant by the hits and misses with regards to an AOE attack in the example.

 

In HERO, a 'vanilla' AOE Advantaged attack hits everything in its area. The only way for someone in that area to avoid taking full damage is to move out of that area before the attack goes off (either by Dive For Cover or Flying Dodge). Similarly, half damage might be achievable with Roll with a Punch.

 

A potential issue with using a Desolidification based construct is dealing with interactions vs. attacks that also have the Affects Desolidified Advantage.

A Damage Reduction or Damage Negation based approach with a similar RSR Limitation would get around that issue.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

Desolidfication' date=' Only to Prevent Damage, Requires Skill Roll.[/quote']

 

Simple and Elegant.

 

Another way:

 

+1 SPD (Only for Abort to Dodge or Dive for Cover -1)

 

Would require ignoring the usual rule on changing speed; and just allow that this extra action could only be used on phases you would not normally get an action. You could not use your extra abort on phase 3 then also attack on phase 3.

[ErikModi]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

I'm not sure what is meant by the hits and misses with regards to an AOE attack in the example.

 

I was talking more about how AoE attacks work in a D20 game, rather than Hero System, and how the Evasion ability applies to them, so that those more knowledgeable in Hero could help build an ability with a similar effect.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

It sounds like you are trying to model a mechanic from another system instead of a special effect.

 

HERO is about reasoning (modeling abilities) based on a special effect. Attempting to recreate mechanics from another system without taking the special effect into account is pointless.

 

You might find this link from my SIG below useful.

[gojira]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

My first suggestion would have been: Abort, to Dodge.

 

I guess if you're concerned about AoE then substitute Dive for Cover instead of Dodge.

 

If you want a super special dodge, then yes, you have to throw some points at it. But if we're talking DnD style campaigns here, I probably wouldn't allow Desolidification to be used just to "dodge." I would probably allow a character to buy some DCV, "Only when dodging" to represent that they are good with the Dodge maneuver, or to allow them to recover quicker from a Dive for Cover.

 

Just my 2 nickels.

[Christopher]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

I was talking more about how AoE attacks work in a D20 game' date=' rather than Hero System, and how the Evasion ability applies to them, so that those more knowledgeable in Hero could help build an ability with a similar effect.[/quote']

Saving Throw is how some of the Spells (both AOE and not AOE) work in D&D. Saving throws in D&D only exists because defense is passive.

The entire concept of defense and offense in Hero is radically different.

Initiative and Actions handling are different (the closest I know is Shadowrun). Armor negates Damage, not making it "harder to hit". As such Hero has not even need for saving throws or a lot of healing. Defense in Hero is active (Block, Dive for Cover).

 

Afaik the closest equivalent to "Evasion" from D&D would be "Combat Luck". It's a defense whose special effect is "it barely missed me".

[ErikModi]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm doing.

 

Of course, that's also taking into account the effect: the ability of a character to not take damage from area effect attacks, through "evading" them. The default "evasion" ability, DCV, does not apply to most AoE attacks.

 

The thought process is this:

 

My character has very high DCV, so he is very difficult to hit. From the get-go, AoE attacks were one of his major weaknesses, since he could not avoid them without aborting to a defensive maneuver. Several times, one good AoE knocked him out of the fight for at least a phase or two, if not a turn or more.

 

Shoring up this weakness required some new ability. The Evasion talent from Star Wars Saga Edition was the sort of ability I was looking for: an ability specifically geared towards mitigating/eliminating the damage from an AoE attack.

 

This ability does not exist whole-cloth in Hero. Thus, it must be made.

 

How do I make it?

 

None of the powers I saw in Hero seemed to me to be readily applicable to this sort of ability, so I finally got around to asking on the boards here. I'd considered using Damage Reduction or Damage Negation, but it just feels wrong to me to apply these only to specific circumstances. If I'm going to buy Damage Negation, why not buy it for EVERYTHING? I know the same could be said of nearly any power in Hero System, and this is just an irrational personal hang-up, but still. The idea for using Desolidification seems a nice fit, though I'm curious to see what else people come up with.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

My character.... is very difficult to hit.

 

So this appears to be the special effect you are trying to model.

 

In HERO, AOE Advantaged attacks are not targeting (attempting to hit) a character. Rather, they are targeting an AREA.

Ergo, the defense to being hit is NOT being in that AREA or getting behind cover that can withstand the 'blast' of the AOE attack.

 

....

 

A related issue not mentioned yet is the major differences in damage tracking in most level based D20 systems and HERO: Hit Points vs. Body & Stun

 

Hit Points are typically not a measure of how much actual damage a PC can absorb. They are actually measuring how much damage a character avoids naturally via passive rolling w/the punch and/or damage reduction like effects. The proof is that no matter how many Hit Points a character has they can usually be killed in their sleep using a knife to the throat. The knife isn't really doing extraordinary damage. The conscious character is just avoiding most of the 'real' damage.

 

100 hit point and a 10 hit point D20 characters could easily have the same 10 Body in HERO. The former just has far more copious abilities that mitigate the amount of Body damage the character takes in combat.

 

Desolidification is certainly an ability that can be used to stop damage but it is worth noting that its inclusion in the original Champions list of "Powers" was heavily influenced by comic book characters like Phantom Girl from Legion of Superheroes, Kitty Pryde from X-flavorofthemonth, Vision of the Avengers, and various astral projection using wizards. Its also one of the last "near-absolute" effect abilities still in the core rules.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

Extra defenses only vs. Area of Effect attacks, or perhaps even Damage Reduction, could also be used in place of Desolidification.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

Yep. I mentioned that on post #4.

 

...

A Damage Reduction or Damage Negation based approach with a similar RSR Limitation would get around that issue.

[Christopher]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

This ability does not exist whole-cloth in Hero. Thus, it must be made.

 

How do I make it?

It doesn't exists for a simple reason: It is unessesary.

 

Seriously, for all the fun playing D&D/D20 was it had one singular mistake of epic propotions:

Armor doesn't stops damage.

 

Just because they never corrected it, they had to introduce:

10+ types of AC Bonus, each with different value on: How they work with suprise, how they affect incoproreal, how they affect touch attacks.

3 Saving throws, also with a similar amount of Bonus types

Healing Classes and potions (because seriously, the game is more about "depleting" the enemies HP faster than he depletes yours than anything else. Even when you are equally skilled warriors, there is no way to effectively fight defensively).

1 Class and a dozen+ Prestiges Classes, just to be able to fight without armor (dodging the attaks). And most of them were still worser of than your armored knight and none of them is easy to follow.

 

Hero avoids that.

If you want a nimble character that dodges a lot:

High OCV/DCV, Combat Luck, high Dex (so you can dive for Cover), maybe +1 SPD.

 

If you want a character that can take a beating:

High Defenses, CON.

[ErikModi]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

Yeah, so not my original point.

[Lucius]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

I'd considered using Damage Reduction or Damage Negation' date=' but it just feels wrong to me to apply these only to specific circumstances. If I'm going to buy Damage Negation, why not buy it for EVERYTHING? I know the same could be said of nearly any power in Hero System, and this is just an irrational personal hang-up, but still. [/quote']

 

You're right, it's an irrational personal hang up. But if you want to use it for EVERYTHING, check this out.

 

Evasion: (Total: 140 Active Cost, 42 Real Cost)

Energy Damage Reduction, Resistant, 50% (30 Active Points); Restrainable (-1/2), Nonpersistent (-1/4), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END When Used; -1/4), Variable Limitations (requires -1/2 worth of Limitations; Must be one of: Only vs Area Effect; Requires a Roll (Acrobatics, Power, DEX, etc) at -3; -1/4), Unified Power (Evasion; -1/4) (Real Cost: 12)

plus

Physical Damage Reduction, Resistant, 50% (30 Active Points); Restrainable (-1/2), Nonpersistent (-1/4), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END When Used; -1/4), Variable Limitations (requires -1/2 worth of Limitations; Must be one of: Only vs Area Effect; Requires a Roll (Acrobatics, Power, DEX, etc) at -3; -1/4), Unified Power (Evasion; -1/4) (Real Cost: 12)

plus

Desolidification , Costs Endurance Only When Used (+1/4), Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates, Character does not control activation of personal Trigger; +3/4) (80 Active Points); Only To Protect Against Area Effects (-1), Cannot Pass Through Solid Objects (-1/2), Restrainable (-1/2), OIF (Cover of Opportunity; -1/2), Limited Power Requires freedom of movement; cannot be at reduced DCV for any reason (-1/2), Requires A Roll (Such as Acrobatics, Power, or DEX, -1 per 20 Active Points modifier; -1/4), Unified Power (Evasion; -1/4) (Real Cost: 18)

 

 

This will cut ANY damage in half, IF one of two condition apply:

A. The attack is Area Effect. No roll needed, damage is halved.

B. The character makes a roll on Acrobatics, DEX, etc. (Must choose when buying the Power, and can't change thereafter) at -3.

 

This ability costs 3 END every time it's used. It also can't be used while restrained in any way.

 

Specifically for Area Effects, the character may take NO damage if there is anything nearby that could conceivably count as cover (maybe even another character) if a roll is made at -4 on Acrobatics, DEX, etc (must choose when Power is bought, cannot change.) Not only must the character not be restrained, they may not be hampered in ANY way; must be at full DCV.

 

 

Of course, you'll STILL get hit by attacks that are Area Effect AND Affects Desolid. Maybe I can find a way around that....

 

A simpler summary of the Power:

 

Against Area Effects: Take half damage. If there is any available cover, take no damage on a roll of (whatever) at -4.

Against all other attacks: Take half damage on a roll of (whatever) at -3

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I have a palindromedary and I'm not afraid to munchkinize it

[Folded]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

There is an assumption at the core of Hero that is also in D&D, but which D&D has mitigated a great deal over the years. If you are strong somewhere, you are weak somewhere else. More accurately (in Hero terms), if there is an Offensive ability, there is also a way to Defend against it. If there is a Defensive ability, then there is a way to Attack around it. The high DCV character has ALWAYS been vulnerable to AoE attacks. In my group, the One-Hex AoE advantage is known as 'The Speedster Killer'. This is intentional, and a large part of the balance that allows for nearly any character to be reasonably pitted against another character of equal points.

 

As your character advances, you can shore up the weaknesses, or play to the strengths, but you will always have weaknesses. If the GM is constantly throwing AoE attacks against you, finding a defense against that is important. Why would you buy a Defense that only works against AoE? Mechanically, because it will cost fewer points than a power that works against everything. Thematically, because it represents the character developing methods to deal with this particular weakness.

 

To me, part of the fun that Hero has is this simple balance. There is no perfect defense, no way of dealing with every situation head on. It can lead to wonderfully inventive role-play and Power usage because someone always has your number. Finding this balance is not as simple as in other games, and requires recognition of the existence of this balance on the part of both GMs and players. But once you have it, you will find those weaknesses as much fun to work with as the strengths.

[ErikModi]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

Wow. Great ability, Lucius! Unfortunately, my campaign is limited to 75 Active Points in any one ability at the moment.

 

Folded: Great point about balance. Yes, the GM has thrown a lot of AoE attacks at us, especially in the earlier sessions, which is where we all realized this weakness in my character. As an aside, my character was originally the "glass cannon" or "paper tiger" of the group. . . pure DPS, if you want to think in MMO terms. Another player was playing a sort of Iron Man type - actually a Warhammer 40k Space Marine converted to Hero terms - and was intended to fulfill the role of "main tank." He's failed to show up for the majority of sessions, and we're pretty sure he's not coming back in the foreseeable future, so my character is having to evolve into more of a "main tank" concept. Part of delivering on that potential is finding a way to mitigate damage from AoE attacks. A great number of my character points after character creation have gone towards shoring up his defenses.

 

Anyway, I suppose the point I'm trying to make with the above ramble is that, I agree with what you said about the idea of balance. It's somewhat of a core concept to the superhero genre, the idea that all superheroes have some kind of "kryptonite" that affects them or their powers.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

I'm sorry to hear about the loss of the player. Inconsistent group attendance is really tough to deal with.

 

I had a similar thing happen in a game I played in a few years ago. The flying/brick/blaster player only showed up occasionally and really made it hard on the GM who was constantly having to adjust the power level and mix of the villains to adjust for when he missed or showed up for games. I was playing a skill heavy martial/brick (think Doc Samson from Hulk comics) who was just not built to be a front line brick stand-in. Since the game was hosted by my apartment I eventually swapped out characters with my namesake flying/brick/speedster. We were lucky to have 3 core players with 1-2 random additional players from session to session.

[Lucius]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

With this version, no one Power in the set goes over 45 Active Points.

 

Evasion: (Total: 117 Active Cost, 43 Real Cost)

Energy Damage Reduction, Resistant, 50% (30 Active Points); Restrainable (-1/2), Nonpersistent (-1/4), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END When Used; -1/4), Variable Limitations (requires -1/2 worth of Limitations; Must be one of: Only vs Area Effect; Requires a Roll (Acrobatics, Power, DEX, etc) at -1; -1/4), Unified Power (Evasion; -1/4) (Real Cost: 12)

plus

Physical Damage Reduction, Resistant, 50% (30 Active Points); Restrainable (-1/2), Nonpersistent (-1/4), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END When Used; -1/4), Variable Limitations (requires -1/2 worth of Limitations; Must be one of: Only vs Area Effect; Requires a Roll (Acrobatics, Power, DEX, etc) at -1; -1/4), Unified Power (Evasion; -1/4) (Real Cost: 12)

plus

Extra-Dimensional Movement to Pseudo-dimension of "Cover." (Single "Dimension"), Safe Blind Travel (+1/4), Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates, Character does not control activation of personal Trigger, Two activation conditions apply simultaneously; Trigger conditions are: Danger Sense (see below) and 1 segment after first trigger. ; +1) (45 Active Points); OIF (Cover of Opportunity; -1/2), Restrainable (-1/2), Conditional Power Must be full DCV, unhampered by anything. (-1/2), Unified Power (-1/4), Limited Power Will involuntarily move to any location with available cover within a half-move (-1/4) (Real Cost: 15)

plus

Danger Sense (self only, in combat, Function as a Sense, Intuitional) (12 Active Points); Limited Power Only for use as Trigger: Extradimensional Move (-1), Limited Power Only to detect Area Effect attacks (-1/2), Unified Power (-1/4) (Real Cost: 4)

 

The summary:

 

Against any attack: Take half damage if make (whatever) Roll. END Cost: 3

 

Against Area Effects: Half damage automatic. If there is cover within one half move, the character is unrestrained and at full DCV, and the Danger Sense roll is made, move to cover automatically (even if it leaves the character dangling out a window or standing next to a large dangerous enemy who happened to BE the best available cover) and take NO damage for 1 segment. Of course, during that segment the character does nothing else and is not even aware of events (mechanically, character is in "another world;" "in game" the character is scrambling for cover and paying no attention to anything else.) END Cost: 3 for half damage, 4 for no damage.

 

Of course, if there's a CONTINUING Area Effect Attack, you're still screwed. Also, either of these write ups I've done cost a lot of points even for a superheroic budget. If the character already HAS Danger Sense the Trigger can link to that and save 4 pts.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wonders if this version is really a great deal less powerful than the other, as those who swear by the significance of Active Points and the inviolability of "caps" would have us believe.

[randian]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

I bought a similar power using Desolidification, but with a twist. I defined the special effect that ignores the Desolidification to be "any DCV-targeting attack", rather than just "fire" or "electricity". That's basically Improved Evasion from D&D (take no damage from area-effect attacks on successful save) while still being vulnerable to every kind of regular attack and being unable to attack (since I'm Desolid).

[Lucius]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

I bought a similar power using Desolidification' date=' but with a twist. I defined the special effect that ignores the Desolidification to be "any DCV-targeting attack", rather than just "fire" or "electricity". That's basically Improved Evasion from D&D (take no damage from area-effect attacks on successful save) while still being vulnerable to every kind of regular attack and being unable to attack (since I'm Desolid).[/quote']

 

I'm impressed.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Resolidifying a palindromedary

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

I bought a similar power using Desolidification' date=' but with a twist. I defined the special effect that ignores the Desolidification to be "any DCV-targeting attack", rather than just "fire" or "electricity". That's basically Improved Evasion from D&D (take no damage from area-effect attacks on successful save) while still being vulnerable to every kind of regular attack and being unable to attack (since I'm Desolid).[/quote']

 

So how would this interact with the following ability from this familiar character?

 

0 11) Heat Vision: Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6, Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4), +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4), Area Of Effect Accurate (1m Radius; +1/2), No Range Modifier (+1/2), Constant (+1/2), Penetrating (x2; +1) (60 Active Points); Can Be Deflected (-1/4), No Knockback (-1/4) Real Cost: 30 End 3

 

The AOE Accurate Advantage is there specifically to make hitting individual targets within a 1m Radius easier. The defense is not being inside that Radius (Dive for Cover). It is not an absolute defense because the DFC roll can be missed. However, your desol based build is an absolute defense because of that very Advantage. That doesn't make sense to me.

[Christopher]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

Yeah' date=' so not my original point.[/quote']

I merely pointed out that you can't adapt the D&D solution to Hero, because the way Area of Effect and even damage works are fundamentally different.

 

In D&D:

Area of Effect always hits (no attack roll/distance penalty) and you can't reduce the damage and your AC is ignored. So your only defense is a saving throw.

 

In Hero:

Area of Effect requires a Attack Roll (subject to distance and maybe velocty based DCV against moving speedsters), you can defend actively (not being there) and your defenses work.

So the last thing you should try is to implement (as a player) a 4th way to defend, when there are already 3.

 

1. You could affect the attackers ability to target his AOE attack properly.

I would generally asume targetting a moving speedsters is hard, even with a Area of Effect attack. As a GM I would propably increase the DCV to hit him with an Area of Effect to the Velocity Based DCV (6E2 24). The raduis of the AOE might have an effect on this.

But even as a player you could make:

Let's see if you can follow this: Supress OCV, Only for Area of Effect, Only when trying to affect this Character, Not when attack uses "Rapid" Sense for Targetting.

Change environment is worth a look. A small cloud of dust can really ruin every enemies aim, but might also affect allies.

 

2. You could work on the "not being there":

Spedsters tend to have good DEX and SPD, so dive for cover is easy. But still costs a phase.

You can buy limted SPD. For example with "6 SPD" and

Superspeed Reflexes: "+3 SPD, only to Abort"

you get Phases in Segments 2 3 4 6 7 8 10 11 12. The bold ones are the unlimited ones, the others segments are only for Aborting (inlcuding Dive For cover).

 

Also worth a look is "Trigger" on Movement:

Side Step: Naked Advantage on up to 12m Running: Trigger (Being Targetted by Area of Effect Attacks; Activation takes no Time; Requires half phase action to reset +1/2); 6 AP. 1 END

Unhitable: Naked Advantge on up to 12m Running: Trigger (Being Targetted by Area of Effect Attacks; Activation takes no Time; Automatically Resets after activation; +1); 12 AP, 1 END

Not 100% certain that is rules legal to use trigger/movement that way. But in any chase the APG/FAQ says: Activating a trigger that takes no time before the enemy action (an attack) takes effect requires eitehr aborting to that action or win a DEX Contest with the attacker (followign the Rules on 6E2 19 for such actions).

It doesn't expose your character as much as Dive for Cover does. But the End cost would be in addition to the movement you "triggered".

 

3. Boost Defenses.

Already noted Combat Luck.

Another idea is to give your extra Defense, "Only while Moving". Kinetik from the Champions has this:

Protective Aura: Resistant Protection (10 PD/10 ED), Only When Moving (-¼); 30 AP, 24 Real Cost.

But you could also use "Linked, Proportionally" to simulate this. As long as you use a certain amount of Movement per Phase (usually half move at least) you retain the extra PD.

[ErikModi]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

I bought a similar power using Desolidification' date=' but with a twist. I defined the special effect that ignores the Desolidification to be "any DCV-targeting attack", rather than just "fire" or "electricity". That's basically Improved Evasion from D&D (take no damage from area-effect attacks on successful save) while still being vulnerable to every kind of regular attack and being unable to attack (since I'm Desolid).[/quote']

 

But wouldn't the Desolidification only last for the duration of the attack, allowing you to attack back on your next phase?