Evasion Talent

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

The game I am running is Champions. So that gun (or pointed finger in some cases) can fire single shots, auto fire, AOE (in electricity, fire, radiation, cold etc), entangle you, AOE entangle, polymorph you a frog etc.

 

Deciding what to do is a little more difficult then the example of the rifle with under slung grenade launcher or just a person flinging what looks like a grenade at you.

 

Like I said earlier, if the character targeted had never encountered the the group of related attacks in question before they will certainly have to guess. But if they had seen enough of them before they should be able recognize the slight differences in the special effect. Human Torch attacking with a ball of flame should look different than when he creates a flame cage and I don't think he should get a Limitation on his powers because of it.

 

This type of thing is a good example why all characters should invest in Knowledge Skills about their (potential) enemies.

 

It also explains how Batman is able to singlehandedly take on a group including Copperhead, Shade, Star Sapphire, Solomon Grundy, and Tsukuri in this episode of JLAnimated. He is defeated by the rogue Amazon because he doesn't know anything about what she can do.

 

.......

 

Speaking of guns (as in real world ones), bullets should be considered a special case imo. A realistic build of guns w/bullets should probably include IPE vs. Sight countered by a certain level of Rapid Sense. That would allow for long range sniper shots that no one gets to react to ahead of time unless they have some sort of enhanced senses or Danger Sense.

[Christopher]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

Speaking of guns (as in real world ones)' date=' bullets should be considered a special case imo. A realistic build of guns w/bullets should probably include IPE vs. Sight countered by a certain level of Rapid Sense. That would allow for long range sniper shots that no one gets to react to ahead of time unless they have some sort of enhanced senses or Danger Sense.[/quote']

Steahlty use of the Power + Range modifiers will take care of that already.

Having a Muzzler (Naked IPE Advantage, making the power inobvious) also helps in making the roll/use it without warning.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

Steahlty use of the Power + Range modifiers will take care of that already.

Having a Muzzler (Naked IPE Advantage, making the power inobvious) also helps in making the roll/use it without warning.

 

I meant to say sight and sound as well. Since nearly ALL* bullets typically travel faster than sound this would clearly allow ALL bullet attacks to hit targets without ANY chance of them noticing beforehand without special senses/Danger Sense IF the attacker was far enough away from the target. This is how snipers work in the real world. First a target either a) dies or otherwise gets hit sees/hears a bullet ricochet nearby & then second or two later hears the crack of the rifle shot.

*(Ammo designed for use on commercial airlines (Air Marshall's handguns) are probably subsonic to reduce the chance of depressurization during flight.)

 

A flash suppressor or silencer works a little differently. They are primarily used on closer range weapons and at least in the real world are never 100% effective at reducing the sight or sound from the gun it's attached to.

 

Most GM's probably already allow real world guns to work this way anyway. This is perfectly fine for a Heroic/Dark Champions settings where characters aren't spending points for equipment. But in Champions setting where everything is paid for this type of effect should not be given for free just because of using a 'gun sfx'. A player creating a character with a gun multipower who wants/expects his 'magic bullet' multipower to behave like this should pay for it (in my opinion at least, this is not RAW).

[Vondy]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

One might look at "Evasive" on Page 105 of Fantasy Hero 5e.

 

Its build with desolidification and lims.

[Escafarc]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

One might look at "Evasive" on Page 105 of Fantasy Hero 5e.

 

Its build with desolidification and lims.

 

Page 138 in 6E.

 

EDIT: And it looks like the 6E version doesn't work against AOE Attacks.

 

EDIT2: And 5E is the same.

[ErikModi]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

Decided to go with this:

 

Evasion: Desolidification , Trigger (Hit by Area Effect Attack) (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates, Character does not control activation of personal Trigger; +3/4) (70 Active Points); Only To Protect Against Area Effect Attacks (-1), Requires A Roll (Skill roll (Acrobatics); Must be made each Phase/use; (-1), Cannot Pass Through Solid Objects (-1/2), Instant (-1/2), Cost: 17

 

Now all I need to do is show it to my GM and get it approved. Thanks for all the assistance!

[Sketchpad]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

Another option is just to make a new talent that's appropriate to the conversion ... for example:

 

Evasion

5 pts/level

When an area effect targets an area, they normally target a DCV 3. However, with levels in Evasion, a player may increase that DCV up to his character's base DCV (-3 due to the starting DCV of 3), making the character more evasive towards AE attacks. For example:

SpyGuy is taking on some members of TERROR when someone fires a rocket launcher at him (4d6 AE RKA). Luckily SpyGuy has Evasion 3 (which he bought up to his base DCV 6) and, instead of rolling against DCV 3, the TERROR Agent now rolls against DCV 6 and manages to miss the suave spy by 1 point! The agent dives behind some crates and comes out firing his 9mm at the rocket launching bad guy ...

 

Yet another reason why I'd love to see a Talent book

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

And you can't apply DCV to AoE attacks. Ever. (Unless they are Selective)

 

AoE affects just that, an area. The attack roll for an standard AoE is never compared to a character's DCV, so DCV is worthless against AoE attacks.

 

Sorry I missed this the first time around....

 

This is not 100% true. Abilities/Maneuvers that increase DCV can still be useful in certain situations.

In the case of some HTH attacks with AOE (like a character with Growth) the target can add the DCV bonus from any Dodge Maneuver (Dodge, Martial Dodge, *Flying Dodge) to the 'base' 3 DCV of the Hex they are in. Any CSL's that can be applied to Dodge can also increase this 'base' Hex DCV as well.

 

*Flying Dodge would allow a target to avoid the attack altogether similar to a Dive For Cover since by RAW (rules as written) it allow a character to Abort to a Movement Power (with no roll necessary, unlike DFC).

[Christopher]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

Another option is just to make a new talent that's appropriate to the conversion ... for example:

 

Evasion

5 pts/level

When an area effect targets an area, they normally target a DCV 3. However, with levels in Evasion, a player may increase that DCV up to his character's base DCV (-3 due to the starting DCV of 3), making the character more evasive towards AE attacks. For example:

SpyGuy is taking on some members of TERROR when someone fires a rocket launcher at him (4d6 AE RKA). Luckily SpyGuy has Evasion 3 (which he bought up to his base DCV 6) and, instead of rolling against DCV 3, the TERROR Agent now rolls against DCV 6 and manages to miss the suave spy by 1 point! The agent dives behind some crates and comes out firing his 9mm at the rocket launching bad guy ...

 

Yet another reason why I'd love to see a Talent book

Okay, please explain me how this one guy in the group of 20 makes it harder to hit with my 24m Radius Area of Effect?

[Christopher]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

In the case of some HTH attacks with AOE (like a character with Growth) the target can add the DCV bonus from any Dodge Maneuver (Dodge' date=' Martial Dodge, *Flying Dodge) to the 'base' 3 DCV of the Hex they are in. Any CSL's that can be applied to Dodge can also increase this 'base' Hex DCV as well.[/quote']

Could you please cite your sources?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

Could you please cite your sources?

 

From the 5e FAQ:

On 5E 159, the rules say a character can Dodge an Area Of Effect (One Hex Accurate) attack. Do the Dodge DCV bonuses add to the base DCV of 3? Can you apply any other DCV bonuses (Skill Levels, Martial Maneuvers, and so on)?

 

Yes, and yes.

 

....

If you Dodge an Area Of Effect (One Hex Accurate) attack, do you get your full DCV in addition to the Dodge bonuses?

 

No. You add the Dodge bonuses (plus CSLs and the like, if applicable) to the base DCV of 3.

 

...

If a character is attacked with an Area Of Effect (One Hex Accurate) attack, and he has Combat Skill Levels (or the like) that could improve his DCV, do they automatically improve his DCV, or can he only apply them if he takes some specifically defensive action, like Dodging?

 

He can only apply them if he takes some specifically defensive action, like Dodging. He can’t apply any DCV bonuses he has just because he has them. The same applies to bonuses from Concealment and the like.

 

The Range Modifier applies to One Hex Accurate attacks as normal.

I'm too tired to cross check 5er right now but it appears that this rule got omitted in 6e. I'd probably use it as a house rule regardless.

[Christopher]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

From the 5e FAQ:

[/u]

I'm too tired to cross check 5er right now but it appears that this rule got omitted in 6e. I'd probably use it as a house rule regardless.

I checked both Area of Effect basic rules and the "Accurate" sub Rules. Both clearly state. Goes agaisnt DCV 3 and "can't Dodge or Block, only Dive for Cover".

[dmjalund]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

I just think that the HERO rules for AoE are too different from the D&D 4E rules for a proper translation to be possible

[ErikModi]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

Good thing for me, then that I wasn't looking for a "proper" translation, but advanced protection specifically against AoE attacks.

 

Whew.

[Sketchpad]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

Okay' date=' please explain me how this one guy in the group of 20 makes it harder to hit with my 24m Radius Area of Effect?[/quote']

 

He finds the appropriate shelter to hide behind ... in my example, SpyGuy could dive into a cellar, take cover behind a solid structure or find his way into an old fridge to ride out the blast

[Ragitsu]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

Yeah' date=' so not my original point.[/quote']

 

I've been down a similar road before. I feel for you, man.

[John T]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

I've been down a similar road before. I feel for you' date=' man.[/quote']

The train NEVER travels a straight line between points A and B.

[Lucius]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

He finds the appropriate shelter to hide behind ... in my example' date=' SpyGuy could dive into a cellar, take cover behind a solid structure or find his way into an old fridge to ride out the blast [/quote']

 

And this causes the Area Effect Power to somehow go off course and hit somewhere else?

 

Increasing the DCV of an area doesn't just protect the character - it protects anyone else standing in the area.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary Combat Value

[rentauri]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

... take cover behind a solid structure or find his way into an old fridge to ride out the blast

 

Not sure if you were using him or not but I flashed to Indiana Jones jumping into the Fridge to 'dodge' the Nuclear Bomb test.

 

---

 

What about building it as a Resistant Protection with some type limitations like: Must have some way to escape the AoE and Requires a Roll: DEX? Thematically it works the same: moving around, looking for cover and protecting yourself to prevent or reduce the damage. Its just that instead of a desolidification or teleport trigger you reduce the incoming damage.

(Also sorry if the above has been mentioned, didn't think I saw it in the thread but could have missed it).

[Escafarc]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

Not sure if you were using him or not but I flashed to Indiana Jones jumping into the Fridge to 'dodge' the Nuclear Bomb test.

 

---

 

What about building it as a Resistant Protection with some type limitations like: Must have some way to escape the AoE and Requires a Roll: DEX? Thematically it works the same: moving around, looking for cover and protecting yourself to prevent or reduce the damage. Its just that instead of a desolidification or teleport trigger you reduce the incoming damage.

(Also sorry if the above has been mentioned, didn't think I saw it in the thread but could have missed it).

 

Like Combat Luck?

[rentauri]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

Yes but I was under the impression that Combat Luck was not Resistant Protection. Could buy the advantage Resistant for the exact same thing.

 

EDIT: and I was wrong it is... huh guess that means I should opening my eyes and read the Resistant part it clearly stated.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

One of the assumptions of the HERO system is that anyone who throws AoE attacks is probably doing less damage than people who have to contend with DCVs, so if you're playing 6e, a few DCs of damage negation only vs AoE attacks ought to keep your glass cannon from cracking too quickly. If you're playing earlier editions, 10 points of defense, ED or PD negates roughly 3d6 of damage, which, once you've added the appropriate modifiers, is quite a few active points. If you start with 15 def and add a conditional 10, then an 8d6 explosion isn't going to leak all that much through on an average roll. If your villains throw more dice, then buy slightly higher defenses. Don't skimp on CON and STUN, either. They're the universal defense.

 

If you've managed to get your DCV to the point where people have to resort to explosives to actually inflict damage upon you, congrats. It isn't cheap. It isn't easy. And once you're there, you should accept the fact that people are going to start bringing flamethrowers and grenades when they know you are likely to be their opponent. Delay a half phase if you aren't already tied up with an opponent. And bear in mind that enough DCV is essentially 100% damage reduction if people can't hit you. It's quite unbalancing if you don't ever get hit.

 

Trust me, I know how this feels. I play a character who relies on DCV and active defenses to get by. For the majority of her career, Mittens has had the worst defenses in the campaign and has been one-shotted more times than the rest of the team combined. (straight up combat, force fields up, no vulnerabilities, full Stun to 0 or less in one hit) She also has the lowest REC in the game, so once she goes down, she tends to stay down. When I play her, I delay a lot and abort to some defensive action whenever it feels like things are getting too scary. (which is often, as she has the PsychLim: Coward) I bought levels specifically for Dodge and Dive for Cover because she is a glass cannon and she needs them to stay intact.

 

One of the elements of playing a character who relies on actively avoiding damage is not relying on static defenses. You can put points into powers that mitigate damage, but really, what you need to do is learn to modify your play to extend your expected survival time. You need to become acutely aware of the timing of combat, who goes when and who looks like they might come after you. You need to have a half phase in your pocket when it looks like a dangerous hitter is lining you up. You need to hold off on your attacks unless you think you're in the clear. You need teammates that hold aggro well and support them to keep them in the fight.

[ErikModi]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

Problem is, I'm now the team brick, since our Space Marine hasn't shown up for more than three sessions. So I can't rely on my teammates to sponge damage for me, I need to do it for them.

 

This is just part of bulking up my character's defenses so that he can be the tank and hold aggro, as well as putting down threats in conjunction with the rest of the team.

[Christopher]

Re: Evasion Talent

 

Like Combat Luck?

Preaching that since my first post. But would you think they listen?