The cost of Internet

[Checkmate]

One of my favorite character types is the Power Armor character. My favorite part of it is the A.I. feeding the user information.

 

When creating this type of character I would create an AI and give it a butt ton of KS: and AK: skills. It occurred to me, that I could do a lot of the same things I was trying to simulate with my smart phone and Google. If my smart phone has internet access and can Google a business, or look something up by taking a picture of it, surely a high tech suit of armor could.

 

My question is what would the ability to look something up on the internet cost. I would go with Perk:Computer Link, but how much should a computer link to the regular internet cost assuming this character was going to be used in the "standard" Champions Universe.

 

As a GM would you personally allow this? What issues or limitation would you apply?

[Folded]

Re: The cost of Internet

 

In a modern setting, I would add Internet Search as an Everyman skill, and some kind of Access as well (mobile device might cost a point or two, at most). The primary Limitation is Extra Time and something to represent coverage (possibly an Activation roll, or GM fiat). An AI that can provide such information at combat speeds would have to have a Search Skill above 18-, and a Computer Link on the order of 10 points (dedicated satellite or Wireless). Coverage might still be an issue, although there are ways around it.

 

There's also the fact that the Internet has a lot of bad information in it. Not that that could be used as a plot point or anything...

[Christopher]

Re: The cost of Internet

 

The question is about game relevance and how much action the character has to take by himself.

 

Yes you can search something with you smartphone. But can you also do it in a fight with superhumans? For me normal people equipment (wich is free) is way to unwieldy and fragile to be used in a battle. Cellphones break (propably even when some electricity EP just fires somewher nearby) or have no connection. And they need two hands to use. And evne if you find something, you have to read it manually.

 

Access to the Celluar Phone System is part of HRRP. Just having that sense would propably allow the power armor user to search the internet (projection the image into his field of vision). But he would still need time for that and what he can find is limited.

If he wants his A.I./Database to have up to date and reliable information on any topic, he needs to but it the skill/buy the skill with Limitations (like OIF since he needs his armor). Champions 6E 202 has a writeup of Socrates (the Defenders A.I.) and he has a ton of KS, PS and SS (64 Characer points worth of).

 

Inersting are:

AK. Earth

AK: Home Nation

CK: Campaign City

KS: Archived recent News

KS: Current News

KS: General Knowledge (at 20- for 10 points)

KS: Superheroes

KS: Supervilains

KS: World history

KS: World Politics

[Alverant]

Re: The cost of Internet

 

There's also the fact that the Internet has a lot of bad information in it. Not that that could be used as a plot point or anything...

I'd put that on a sliding scale depending on what was being searched. If the local senator has been kidnapped, it would help to know who s/he was and what s/he looks like. You may have to look past some bad photos and/or editorial cartoons but finding a good picture for identification purposes shouldn't be a problem. Deciding whether or not the senator is worth saving is another matter.

 

When you're looking for basic information, the biggest problem is obsolete data. For example I used google to find pizza places in my area and it included one that closed years ago. But a comic-book style internet search AI can verify information to prevent this.

[Arc Esu]

Re: The cost of Internet

 

In The Ultimate Base, several bases build an internet connection as KS: Everything at a very high level (30 or 50, I think). Presumably, the more specific your inquiry, the greater the penalty to the roll. This is expensive, but you could put on OIF and maybe Extra Time to reduce the cost while still simulating it accurately.

[Checkmate]

Re: The cost of Internet

 

I considered the the KS:Everything, or even using Universal Scholar/Scientist, and may just go that route.

 

I've not overly concerned with time, anything I need with combat applications I'd just buy as a seperate skill.

 

So would HRRH/xmit be enough, or would you require the Computer Link Perk? If the latter, what would that perk cost?

[Alverant]

Re: The cost of Internet

 

I just had an interesting thought. Which supervillains tweet?

#DrDestroyer Fuls I shal dstry u all LOL

[Bloodstone]

Re: The cost of Internet

 

Oddly, I was just thinking on this topic this morning. It comes up in our games with reasonable frequency and I don't feel it's handled as well as it could be because there aren't any real good guidelines.

 

One really could do a rather in depth article on it...

 

- Ease of access: How usable is the GUI on that laptop of yours? Can you Google things while driving? How about while fighting super villains? Obviously things like voice control or mental interfaces negate many of these problems. Obviously, this can influence the amount of time a search takes.

 

- Speed: In a normal research situation, the difference between dial up and broadband is probably negligible for game purposes, but in a combat situation, every second counts. Obviously, connection sped influences how much Extra Time is involved in a given task, though there are other factors as well. The speed of the computer itself is a factor as well.

 

- Quality of Information: Pulling common facts off the Internet is fast and easy, but there's a finite limit to what you can find. Truly occult information my be hard to find and protected by layers of defense and secrecy. There's a big difference between raw information and useable knowledge, between proven fact and popular opinion. However, cinematicly speaking, the Internet can hold any and all answers...

 

- Skill: Once you figure out how long a search will take based on equipment and conditions, user skill plays a big factor. A highly skilled user can cut down on the time it takes to return info and/or get better info with their search time.

 

Obviously, I don't think we would want to actually time this sort of stuff to get super accurate figures, but it might be nice if we developed some sort of chart that people could reference to figure out roughly how long it takes to get good info based on some of the above mentioned factors.

 

Oracle is amazingly skilled, but I'm not sure that she can accomplish as much with an qPhone in a bad service area that Batman can do with the blazing fast crime computers in the Batcave. That sort of difference could be relevant to a game... especially when we have people who's superpowers basically come down to being 1337. And this isn't even getting into really sci-fi or super powered stuff like cyberware or being able to mentally connect to the Net with your mutant technopathy powers...

[Ice9]

Re: The cost of Internet

 

IMO:

* Computer Link (at a 1 point level) would give you access to the internet.

* HRRP would let you access it from anywhere there's cellular coverage.

* Not really sure how to simulate satellite phones, but maybe a lot of Telescopic on HRRP, enough to "view" someplace that does have coverage?

 

Then you (or your AI) need to find stuff on it.

* I'd call internet searching a PS that's an everyman skill. Usual time is too slow for combat though, so you'd need enough levels to bump it down the time chart.

* For really fast searching, you might need Rapid on the HRRP.

* To be searching without using your actions, you'd need an AI Follower to do it.

 

So, some points, but not as much as the pure KS approach. The reason I'm not comfortable with that approach is that to justify the high point cost, characters who didn't buy it would have to be unable to use a smart phone - and I just can't do that, it shatters WSoD for me.

[Bolon]

Re: The cost of Internet

 

Before you jump into cutting down the speed and all so you can have this great wealth of knowledge and mess up the GM's plans, remember the internet and searching it has flaws.

1. Porn - Every porn site has downloaded the entire dictionary into its description and are design to get themselves included in any search.

2. Wikipedia - This site can have inaccurate data in it since it is corrected and changed by users including supervillains. LOL

3. Cyber Overwatch - Once this is used a few times, a great hacker can be hired to mess up your AI. If the info stream is not locked down, the AI is at the mercy of the cyber villains. If AI is locked down, do you have a team of experts adding up-to-date info into the system.

4. GM's whim - If the GM just asks you to give the search elements or criteria, then takes it absolutely literal, imagine the possibilities. WEG ie. I had a cowboy superhero character and we fought someone with mind control. The command of killing the cowboy was given with the mind control but we were also fighting that cowboy villain who is dead from 5th ed. My mind controlled ally turned this undead cowboy into pulp because he was the first one he found.

 

Imagine how easily this great power can be messed with. It is an AI therefore is only as good as the original programming skill. I would love you to run such in my campaign. I am just laughing at all the wonderful ways I could mess things up. "There is a Major Riot at the city hall." "Who has Major Riot as a hunted?" LOL

[Checkmate]

Re: The cost of Internet

 

Imagine how easily this great power can be messed with. It is an AI therefore is only as good as the original programming skill. I would love you to run such in my campaign. I am just laughing at all the wonderful ways I could mess things up. "There is a Major Riot at the city hall." "Who has Major Riot as a hunted?" LOL

I disagree with the AI only being only as good as the programming roll. Data from Star Trek is an AI, I'd imagine he'd be pretty good at an internet search, the Terminator, Red Tornado, all A.I.'s as opposed to computer programs.

 

Things to think about, especially when you're talking about speed, a few years ago (4 to be exact according to this article) in Japan, they launched a satalite that allows 155 mb/s downloads ANYWHERE in Japan, with the potential for 1.2 GB/s. And that's commercial use. Imagine someone that had the ability to create an A.I. what they could do.

 

Just as a test, using Google with auto-complete, it took me 4 seconds to get the name of the mayor of New Orleans. It took me 6 seconds to find out who Katie Holmes is married to.

 

I used Katie Holmes to simulate the kind of coverage someone famous would have, and assume that superhero/villain would have the same type of coverage. Google makes things even faster by guessing what you're going to type before you type it, and pulling up results before you finish. I don't need to click a link as the preview tells me what I need to know. I can type B-A-T-M-A-N-S-E and look down and see Bruce Wyane.

 

 

Now I don't know what I'm really getting at here, but it seems like you could do a lot with an A.I. looking things up on the internet.

[Christopher]

Re: The cost of Internet

 

So would HRRH/xmit be enough' date=' or would you require the Computer Link Perk? If the latter, what would that perk cost?[/quote']

Acess and Computer Link are for restricted data/restricted areas only. You don't need Access for your flat, or Computer Link for the Internet. And I think in the CU we can assume that everyone with HRRP has some way of accessing the internet.

You could perhaps require a 1 point Perk "Mobile Internet Access", but that should be the top of it...

 

- Ease of access: How usable is the GUI on that laptop of yours? Can you Google things while driving? How about while fighting super villains? Obviously things like voice control or mental interfaces negate many of these problems. Obviously, this can influence the amount of time a search takes.

 

- Speed: In a normal research situation, the difference between dial up and broadband is probably negligible for game purposes, but in a combat situation, every second counts. Obviously, connection sped influences how much Extra Time is involved in a given task, though there are other factors as well. The speed of the computer itself is a factor as well.

That is mostly a question of how much you limit your power. For example a cellular Phone would be like this in my book:

HRRP (12 AP), Cellular Phone Network Only (-1), fragile OAF (-1.25), Aditionally affected as hearing (-0.25), Concetration (througout; 1/2 DCV, -3 PER; -0.5), Gestures (to Activate; -0.25), Fuel Charge (1 charge lasting 6 hours; -0); Real Cost: 3

Note: Perception roll is based on the Focus, so it has a 9- Perception Roll.

 

Now what a defender has in his armor:

HRRP, OIF (-1/2), Additionally affected as sight and hearing (-1/2), Real Cost: 6

Note: Perception roll could be either Focus or character

 

Oracle is amazingly skilled' date=' but I'm not sure that she can accomplish as much with an qPhone in a bad service area that Batman can do with the blazing fast crime computers in the Batcave. That sort of difference could be relevant to a game... especially when we have people who's superpowers basically come down to being 1337. And this isn't even getting into really sci-fi or super powered stuff like cyberware or being able to mentally connect to the Net with your mutant technopathy powers...[/quote']

That is mostly because these powers are bought with an Bulky OAF (or as part of their base).

 

3. Cyber Overwatch - Once this is used a few times' date=' a great hacker can be hired to mess up your AI. If the info stream is not locked down, the AI is at the mercy of the cyber villains. If AI is locked down, do you have a team of experts adding up-to-date info into the system. [/quote']

Mind Scan (Machine Class of Mind), Only things with active internet connection (-?)

Once you have found him (archieved a EGO+10 Mind Scan result): Mind Controll (Machine Class of Mind)

 

I disagree with the AI only being only as good as the programming roll. Data from Star Trek is an AI, I'd imagine he'd be pretty good at an internet search, the Terminator, Red Tornado, all A.I.'s as opposed to computer programs.

 

Things to think about, especially when you're talking about speed, a few years ago (4 to be exact according to this article) in Japan, they launched a satalite that allows 155 mb/s downloads ANYWHERE in Japan, with the potential for 1.2 GB/s. And that's commercial use. Imagine someone that had the ability to create an A.I. what they could do.

Unless you have some limitation or this is an really early version of the internet, I think you should have no problem with downlad rates.

 

Something intersting is often the "processing at speed of thought". The fact that an A.I./somebody with direct neural link to a computer can do things faster than one can type. The propably easiest way for this is (Hyper-Man's concept for his speedsters):

Skill Levels (10 points), Only to counteract the penalty for going down on the time chart (-?)

[Bloodstone]

Re: The cost of Internet

 

Just as a test, using Google with auto-complete, it took me 4 seconds to get the name of the mayor of New Orleans. It took me 6 seconds to find out who Katie Holmes is married to.

 

I used Katie Holmes to simulate the kind of coverage someone famous would have, and assume that superhero/villain would have the same type of coverage. Google makes things even faster by guessing what you're going to type before you type it, and pulling up results before you finish. I don't need to click a link as the preview tells me what I need to know. I can type B-A-T-M-A-N-S-E and look down and see Bruce Wyane.

 

Did you use a decently modern computer?

Full sized keyboard?

How fast of a typist are you?

Was it with a fast connection to the internet?

Did you start the browser cold or was it already running?

We're you being shot at at the time?

[Christopher]

Re: The cost of Internet

 

Did you start the browser cold or was it already running?

We're you being shot at at the time?

Was you computer running and not in sleep mode?

Can your computer survive being moved while running (i.e. not a HDD, but SSD).

How well can you move your computer under fire?

[Checkmate]

Re: The cost of Internet

 

Again fellas, I'm talking about an A.I. follower doing the searching while the human pilot does the fighting.

[Christopher]

Re: The cost of Internet

 

Again fellas' date=' I'm talking about an A.I. follower doing the searching while the human pilot does the fighting.[/quote']

But your example was you using google. And you ain't an A.I., as far as I understand.

 

An A.I. Computer would be inherently as fast at doing things as a human. Just because he is a computer/A.I., doesn't means he can do a skill check at less time. So whatever idea we come up with, the Ai still needs a power/skill for everything of game relevance it provides.

[Checkmate]

Re: The cost of Internet

 

But your example was you using google. And you ain't an A.I.' date=' as far as I understand. An A.I. Computer would be inherently as fast at doing things as a human. Just because he is a computer/A.I., doesn't means he can do a skill check at less time. [/quote']

 

Wow, just wow. I'm not sure what I'm not saying right, so let me try again:

If I can look something up on the internet in under 4 seconds, so can an AI. So yes, a character with an AI follower could look something up while running, getting shot at ect. ect.

 

So whatever idea we come up with, the Ai still needs a power/skill for everything of game relevance it provides.

 

Hmm good point. How much do you think that ability should cost? Better yet, I'll start a thread on that topic to see what other people think...

[Ice9]

Re: The cost of Internet

 

An A.I. Computer would be inherently as fast at doing things as a human. Just because he is a computer/A.I., doesn't means he can do a skill check at less time

Well, the AI is certainly not going to be a slower typist than a human. Auto-complete is irrelevant here, because the AI won't be typing individual keys, rather sending the whole search URL in one go.

Personally, I might give "instant typing" to an AI for free, but even if not, then Rapid on the HRRP and enough skill levels to bump data searching down the time chart would cover it.

 

 

So whatever idea we come up with, the Ai still needs a power/skill for everything of game relevance it provides.

It needs some power, but (IMO) just the data search ability, not the KS skill for anything it could look up. To cost it that way would require that other characters can't look things up on the internet, and that doesn't work for me.

 

Now sure, there's in combat vs out of combat. However, this is less of a distinction than for many abilities. Having a 100% reliable gun is worth points compared to having a gun that could be easily damaged, jammed, and so forth. Being able to data search while being shot at is a rare case that deserves maybe a few points, not something that should be a major character investment.

[concord]

Re: The cost of Internet

 

A couple of levels of Rapid on the HRRP gives high speed connection for input and output of data... several levels of Speed Reading for the AI to parse the downloaded data lickety-split...

[phoenix240]

Re: The cost of Internet

 

"Looking for information on the internet is like panning for gold in an open sewer. You might find some real nuggets but you're going to have wade through allot of crap first."

[Christopher]

Re: The cost of Internet

 

Well' date=' the AI is certainly not going to be a [i']slower[/i] typist than a human. Auto-complete is irrelevant here, because the AI won't be typing individual keys, rather sending the whole search URL in one go.

Personally, I might give "instant typing" to an AI for free, but even if not, then Rapid on the HRRP and enough skill levels to bump data searching down the time chart would cover it.[...]

It needs some power, but (IMO) just the data search ability, not the KS skill for anything it could look up. To cost it that way would require that other characters can't look things up on the internet, and that doesn't work for me.

Yes it needs a KS for any information of game relevance it can provide. KS: Everything/general Knowledge are the minimum.

Unlike characters (including Robot characters) a Computer/A.I. has no everyman skills/everyman knowledge of itself. That's part of the price for being unattackable by default and still having phases.

 

The level of a skill determines the quality/detail of information it can find. The internet is gigantic and - despite all effort of google - nowhere near being strutured right. And among all the information there is nearly no veryfiable knowledge.

And depending on the obscurity/detail, the A.I. might actually have to place a call for help in the right chatrooms/forums and hope that somebody there has an answer.

A high skill roll would mean he knows the right person to ask right away, instead of having to wait (taking extra time) for somebody pointing it in the right direction.

 

Searchign for the Mayor of New Orleans without a skill is something that falls under GM-discretion. Dependign on the city, there might not be a city-website and election results might have never hit any online news. Wich means you actually need a Skill to find it out...

[phoenix240]

Re: The cost of Internet

 

PS:Internet Research (Int Based)? That could be an Everyman skill (or fall under Computer Programming). I think that might work out better than KS:Everything. The sum total of human (or all) knowledge isn't contained on the Internet and it's entirely possible to get false, biased and out of date information on an internet search even a thorough one. It does leave allot to GM fiat but internet searches have a large number of possible variables. Google doesn't even give the same results to every user, AIUI.

[Ice9]

Re: The cost of Internet

 

Searchign for the Mayor of New Orleans without a skill is something that falls under GM-discretion. Dependign on the city, there might not be a city-website and election results might have never hit any online news. Wich means you actually need a Skill to find it out..

I know this was just an example, but ... I found this within a few seconds. Just doing the search "mayor of new orleans" on Google produced a "best guess", without even clicking on any of the results. The first result on the list confirmed it.

 

Given that I have never looked up mayors before, and in fact know the names of very few mayors outside my local area, I really doubt that I have an applicable KS at the level necessary.

I'm not disagreeing that the AI would actually need to have a skill like PS: Internet Research, just that it wouldn't need to be massively high for most information, and that they certainly wouldn't need a KS skill at 30-.

 

I just see "able to look things up on the internet" as a feature of a modern-era setting, much like "able to travel places by airplane" does not require every person to have Megascale Flight.

[Lucius]

Re: The cost of Internet

 

Detect A Large Class Of Things: Information discoverable via internet search, Extra Thing or Class of Things: Images, maps, graphs, Extra Thing or Class of Things: Video, sound and etc (Radio Group), Discriminatory, Rapid: x10, Tracking (33 Active Points); IIF (-1/4), Sense Affected As More Than One Sense [sight and Hearing] (-1/4), Variable Limitations (requires -1/2 worth of Limitations; Verification; either take Extra Time (+2 Segments) to vet data, or risk Side Effects (failed PER roll means misleading or wrong information); -1/4) Real Cost:19

 

Detect A Large Class Of Things: Information discoverable via internet search (Radio Group), Discriminatory, Rapid: x10 (18 Active Points); IIF (-1/4), Sense Affected As More Than One Sense [sight and Hearing] (-1/4), Variable Limitations (requires -1/2 worth of Limitations; Verification; either take Extra Time (+2 Segments) to vet data, or risk Side Effects (failed PER roll means misleading or wrong information); -1/4) Real Cost:10

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Variable Palindromedary Pool

[Kraven Kor]

Re: The cost of Internet

 

Interesting thought: Internet Access = Cramming, with appropriate focus, extra time, and skill roll limitations?

 

I could also see a "KS VPP" for this, as I once built for Hardcase, my old Super Cyborg.

 

GOD I NEED TO PLAY HERO!!! NOT JUST RUN IT!!! AHHHHHH!!!