Mega Scale advantage question

[Laser T. Swift]

Hi all,

 

I was looking into the megascale adv and read it over about 4 times to try to figure it out. Is it true that if you choose say a range that will let me teleport anywhere in the world (+2 adv) I can choose to teleport anywhere from 1m (the base) to across the country? So I buy teleport for at its base for 1 point then add the Megascale for x2 adv and I can now teleport anywhere in the world for 3 points? I must be reading it wrong but I seem to be missing the part where it says I can't do that other then the GM saying "no". I understand it is non-combat but still it seems like a really cheap way to go anywhere instantly. Am I reading this wrong?

 

Thanks

 

Laser

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Mega Scale advantage question

 

You're reading it correctly. (Though keep in mind that you may have trouble perceiving the destination point.)

 

However, "the part where the GM says no" is the most important part. (Not just of MegaScale, but of everything in the system.) The costs have to be set so they seem good for the majority of cases, and the majority of uses of the ability. You can always contrive a way to use an element of the system in ways it wasn't intended, and thereby get way more (or less) effect than the cost would normally indicate.

 

The HERO System gives you the power to build almost anything you can imagine, but the flip side is that it also gives the GM the power to only allow builds that "work" in terms of keeping the game fair and fun. HERO requires more GM-player trust than other RPG I know, and it's not that way in spite of the detailed point-balancing system... it's that way largely because of the detailed point-balancing system.

[Laser T. Swift]

Re: Mega Scale advantage question

 

Thanks for the reply. I do like the Hero System mainly because of the flexibility of making your own character just the way YOU want it and not the way the RULES say you can. Fortunately I mainly play with my kids and they have not not yet discovered how to "min-max" a character. LOL

 

Again, thanks for the input.

 

Laser

[Christopher]

Re: Mega Scale advantage question

 

You're reading it correctly. (Though keep in mind that you may have trouble perceiving the destination point.)

That is the main issue here. Unless you have a megascale targetting sense or Fixed location, you can miss teleport. In fact you will miss-teleport (it's DCV 3 + Range modifier).

And the miss-teleporting range is Megascaled by the same factor. And you always use the maximum amount of movement (at least from the point of base meters).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mega Scale advantage question

 

You're reading it correctly. (Though keep in mind that you may have trouble perceiving the destination point.)

 

However, "the part where the GM says no" is the most important part. (Not just of MegaScale, but of everything in the system.) The costs have to be set so they seem good for the majority of cases, and the majority of uses of the ability. You can always contrive a way to use an element of the system in ways it wasn't intended, and thereby get way more (or less) effect than the cost would normally indicate.

 

The HERO System gives you the power to build almost anything you can imagine, but the flip side is that it also gives the GM the power to only allow builds that "work" in terms of keeping the game fair and fun. HERO requires more GM-player trust than other RPG I know, and it's not that way in spite of the detailed point-balancing system... it's that way largely because of the detailed point-balancing system.

 

Do you know, I had not read the 6e MegaScale rules, largely because I have always disliked MegaScale, and that just confirms it. Why ever bother buying even a 2x Noncombat move for 5 points when you can get to anywhere on the planet for 3 points?

 

It is not about trust, or enabling creativity, it is just silly. This is a point balance system, like it or not, and that is only going to work if the points balance. Worse, this is the sort of thing that starts arguments. It is perfectly daft to have incredibly cheap 'anywhere movement', so why shunt the responsibility to the GM to say 'Not in my game'?

 

There is no need for Megascale anyway: you can do everything it does wth other adders or advantages - it is just that it costs a reasonable amount to do it. Want to destroy the solar system? Pay up!

 

Sorry if I come across as grumpy, but this one does push my hot buttons.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Mega Scale advantage question

 

Do you know' date=' I had not read the 6e MegaScale rules, largely because I have always disliked MegaScale, and that just confirms it. Why ever bother buying even a 2x Noncombat move for 5 points when you can get to anywhere on the planet for 3 points?[/quote']

 

One, using any MegaScale Movement is always a Full Phase action (even moving only 1.1m), so you could never Half-Move and Attack. Two, you may be playing in a campaign with a GM.

 

It is not about trust' date=' or enabling creativity, it is just silly. This is a point balance system, like it or not, and that is only going to work if the points balance. Worse, this is the sort of thing that starts arguments. It is perfectly daft to have incredibly cheap 'anywhere movement', so why shunt the responsibility to the GM to say 'Not in my game'?[/quote']

 

Because the game system can't anticipate everything, and in many uses, MegaScale as written is reasonably well-balanced.

 

There is no need for Megascale anyway: you can do everything it does wth other adders or advantages - it is just that it costs a reasonable amount to do it. Want to destroy the solar system? Pay up!

 

It's a convenience; nothing more. If you don't like the very concept of it, don't use it in your games. (And I assume you don't.)

 

Though honestly, I think if MegaScale were removed, you'd still have point balance problems, they'd just be different ones. In the source material for most Superheroic campaigns, characters can often affect huge areas with relatively minor effects, or can traverse the globe in short periods of time. Yes, you can build those effects without using MegaScale, but it becomes insanely expensive for effects that simply aren't that powerful in most Champions games. For example, moving across the world rapidly is common in superhero comics, and having that ability would rarely derail a Champions adventure. But buying it without MegaScale would exceed the Active Point caps of most Champions campaigns and (more to the point) simply wouldn't be anywhere near as useful as the same number of points spent on something else.

 

Who decides how useful an ability is going to be in a given campaign? The GM. Therefore, the GM logically has to be the person who decides whether a given ability is appropriately-priced or should be allowed at all. MegaScale is a Stop-Sign Advantage for a reason.

[Laser T. Swift]

Re: Mega Scale advantage question

 

That is the main issue here. Unless you have a megascale targetting sense or Fixed location, you can miss teleport. In fact you will miss-teleport (it's DCV 3 + Range modifier).

And the miss-teleporting range is Megascaled by the same factor. And you always use the maximum amount of movement (at least from the point of base meters).

 

True, but with a couple of floating points and a handy fixed point that is resolved. Although you can't go ANYWHERE you can get away once out of combat.

 

Which brings me to a new query. Let's say you are in combat and know you are going to lose. You run through a door an lock it or slide down a laundry chute or whatever. Are you then considered "out of combat" even though they may well come after you pretty quickly? Or lets say you are running and lose them for a round or two, are you then "out of combat"?

 

Just curious what your take on that is.

 

Laser

[Christopher]

Re: Mega Scale advantage question

 

True, but with a couple of floating points and a handy fixed point that is resolved. Although you can't go ANYWHERE you can get away once out of combat.

 

Which brings me to a new query. Let's say you are in combat and know you are going to lose. You run through a door an lock it or slide down a laundry chute or whatever. Are you then considered "out of combat" even though they may well come after you pretty quickly? Or lets say you are running and lose them for a round or two, are you then "out of combat"?

 

Just curious what your take on that is.

 

Laser

I think you missunderstand non-combat use here. You can do it every time. You could even do it while thousand mooks are decending on you or when you stand on a sunny plane. The problem is, Megascale and Noncmobat Teleport drop your to 1/2 DCV. And take an entire extra phase to use (2 Full Phases). Two Full Phases on half DCV, limited ability to abort and no CSL useable is about the worst thing you can do in combat. But you can.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Mega Scale advantage question

 

MegaScale comes into it's own when you apply it to non-Movement Powers, especially in a Sci-Fi game where space ships have to be able to scan planets, fire beans dozens of miles through space, etc... (it's a great addition to Military Sci-Fi like the Honor Harrington series). Also when you have to traverse light years of space using Movement Powers. All without costing intensely massive amount of points for a genre-effect, but still having a fairly balanced cost within the confines of the system.

 

It has uses, not everything in the system applies equally well to every genre.

[dmjalund]

Re: Mega Scale advantage question

 

why do you need megascale to scan planets? even though you may have some penalties for range, surely they are made up for the size bonuses, after all, planets are pretty big.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Mega Scale advantage question

 

Range of a sense, area a sense covers.

[Christopher]

Re: Mega Scale advantage question

 

why do you need megascale to scan planets? even though you may have some penalties for range' date=' surely they are made up for the size bonuses, after all, planets are pretty big.[/quote']

Some penalties? Planets tend to be thousands of kilometers wide. And the Scan range in Sci Fi like Starwars or Star Trek can be 1 System to 1 Sector!

And there is the scan/sense area, as ghost-angel pointed out.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Mega Scale advantage question

 

It's a convenience; nothing more. If you don't like the very concept of it, don't use it in your games. (And I assume you don't.)

 

Though honestly, I think if MegaScale were removed, you'd still have point balance problems, they'd just be different ones. In the source material for most Superheroic campaigns, characters can often affect huge areas with relatively minor effects, or can traverse the globe in short periods of time. Yes, you can build those effects without using MegaScale, but it becomes insanely expensive for effects that simply aren't that powerful in most Champions games. For example, moving across the world rapidly is common in superhero comics, and having that ability would rarely derail a Champions adventure. But buying it without MegaScale would exceed the Active Point caps of most Champions campaigns and (more to the point) simply wouldn't be anywhere near as useful as the same number of points spent on something else.

 

I agree with Derek that this is a lot of the issue. If a Champions character has Megascale Teleport that he can use on the entire team, what does that mean, really? OK, the team can be anywhere in the world on a moment's notice. What would have happened if Megascale Man weren't there? Would the characters in New York hear about an alien invasion in Australia, or a monster attack in Japan, or a Eurostar attack in Paris, and just have to sit around watching it on the news since they can't get there before it's all over anyway? Or would the adventure just take place closer to home ("Funny how the aliens never land anywhere else!")? If the ability is more of a plot device, it should not swallow up huge amounts of character points.

 

What's the magic to 2x noncombat multiples anyway? If they were x10, a +1/2 advantage would make 1 meter bump up to 1 km (I get one NCM multiple for free, right?). Maybe we should just ditch the adder for increased NCM and let Megascale handle that entirely - just rename it "enhanced noncombat movement". What makes increments of doubling as an adder inherently superior to the Megascale advantage model? Do we really measure out every meter for noncombat travel?

 

We could also suggest that there be no noncombat multiples. You want to fly faster? Buy more flight. You don't need NCM to increase movement speeds either.

 

Pre-megascale, we used to see Multipowers with, say, 62 meters of flight, and 2 meters of flight, 12 extra NCM doublings. That increases those 2 meters to about 16 km. I don't see how that model was somehow inherently superior to the Megascale advantage.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Mega Scale advantage question

 

We could also suggest that there be no noncombat multiples. You want to fly faster? Buy more flight. You don't need NCM to increase movement speeds either.

 

For that matter, we could suggest that you don't need any Movement Powers other than Flight. You want FTL Travel? LOTS of Flight. You want Running? Flight, No Turn Mode, must touch horizontal surface, doesn't work perpendicular to gravity. Swimming? Flight with enough extra meters to overcome penalties for moving through water. Tunneling? Flight, possibly with Limitations similar to "Running's," with Linked Desolidification (also with Limitations).

 

Start taking enough game elements out, and we get rapidly back to the "build everything with five Powers and a bunch of modifiers" school of thought...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mega Scale advantage question

 

One' date=' using any MegaScale Movement is always a Full Phase action (even moving only 1.1m), so you could never Half-Move and Attack. Two, you may be playing in a campaign with a GM. [/quote']

 

One you are unlikely to half non-combat move and attack anyway and,

Two why give the GM unnecessary work to do?

 

 

 

Because the game system can't anticipate everything' date=' and in many uses, MegaScale as written [i']is[/i] reasonably well-balanced.

 

This is not about anticipating the unanticipated, it is simply about what the anticipated costs and, more to the point, why something costs different amounts for exactly the same effect.

 

 

 

It's a convenience; nothing more. If you don't like the very concept of it, don't use it in your games. (And I assume you don't.)

 

Though honestly, I think if MegaScale were removed, you'd still have point balance problems, they'd just be different ones. In the source material for most Superheroic campaigns, characters can often affect huge areas with relatively minor effects, or can traverse the globe in short periods of time. Yes, you can build those effects without using MegaScale, but it becomes insanely expensive for effects that simply aren't that powerful in most Champions games. For example, moving across the world rapidly is common in superhero comics, and having that ability would rarely derail a Champions adventure. But buying it without MegaScale would exceed the Active Point caps of most Champions campaigns and (more to the point) simply wouldn't be anywhere near as useful as the same number of points spent on something else.

 

Who decides how useful an ability is going to be in a given campaign? The GM. Therefore, the GM logically has to be the person who decides whether a given ability is appropriately-priced or should be allowed at all. MegaScale is a Stop-Sign Advantage for a reason.

 

 

What does it cost to cool the entire planet by 10 degrees, not using MegaScale?

 

19 points. That is hardly insanely expensive.

 

What of you wanted a meaningful planet wide attack? Well, using MS you would need to use a +2 1/4 advantage, so something that could kill most normal people, say a 2d6+1 KA (enough to reduce a normal normal to 0 BODY) would cost you about 114 points. That is insanely cheap, isn't it?

 

Same thing with 'just' AoE costs 227. That is nastily expensive, but we have already thrown away point caps even with the MS version, so it is all about the real cost and I imagine that is not one you will be using regularly.

 

The point is that the cost is not excessive for the effect without MS, and if it is a real problem, well, it would be easier and cleaner to change the rules of AoE then have an advantage that modifies another advantage and/or adder.

[Christopher]

Re: Mega Scale advantage question

 

We could also suggest that there be no noncombat multiples. You want to fly faster? Buy more flight. You don't need NCM to increase movement speeds either.

There is currently still a realm for NCM:

Move by/Move through

By definition you cannot to this with megascaled movement. But you can do it with high or normal noncombat movement. You propably need some setup (flash, entangle) but it works. Of course, with all the downside of megasale and the sheer amout nof speed that you have and thus the OCV penalty) it questionable it this would make a difference.

 

 

What does it cost to cool the entire planet by 10 degrees, not using MegaScale?

 

19 points. That is hardly insanely expensive.

I'd like to see that calcualtion please.

 

 

What of you wanted a meaningful planet wide attack? Well, using MS you would need to use a +2 1/4 advantage, so something that could kill most normal people, say a 2d6+1 KA (enough to reduce a normal normal to 0 BODY) would cost you about 114 points. That is insanely cheap, isn't it?

 

Same thing with 'just' AoE costs 227. That is nastily expensive, but we have already thrown away point caps even with the MS version, so it is all about the real cost and I imagine that is not one you will be using regularly.

You know how hard it is to make a Mind Controll power against wich no one will have a defense?

1d6 Drain EGO (10 base), Delayed Return (5/Minute; +1), Double Penetrating (+1), 0 END (+1/2); 35 AP

 

A SPD 5 super can easily Drain 87 EGO (25 against Targets with decent power Defense). And once you hit 0 EGO you become easily suggestible. With a mere 10 or 20 more AP I can mutliply that effect by 5 or 20. Nobody is going to have even 4-5 of double impenetrable Power defense.

And this are all good reason why no GM should allow such a power, or your world range killing attack.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mega Scale advantage question

 

I'd like to see that calcualtion please.

 

OK:

Change Environment (-1 Temperature Level Adjustment), Area of Effect Radius (Doublings to 8400 km radius; +5 1/2) (19 Active Points)

 

If you do it with Megascale, it is cheaper:

Change Environment (-1 Temperature Level Adjustment), Area Of Effect (4m Radius; +1/4), MegaScale (1m = 10,000 km; +2) (10 Active Points)

 

 

You know how hard it is to make a Mind Controll power against wich no one will have a defense?

1d6 Drain EGO (10 base), Delayed Return (5/Minute; +1), Double Penetrating (+1), 0 END (+1/2); 35 AP

 

A SPD 5 super can easily Drain 87 EGO (25 against Targets with decent power Defense). And once you hit 0 EGO you become easily suggestible. With a mere 10 or 20 more AP I can mutliply that effect by 5 or 20. Nobody is going to have even 4-5 of double impenetrable Power defense.

And this are all good reason why no GM should allow such a power, or your world range killing attack.

 

Indeed, or just use:

 

I am your God!: Mind Control 1d6, Persistent (+1/4), Area Of Effect (4m Radius; +1/4), Personal Immunity (+1/4), Telepathic (+1/4), Cumulative (+1/2), Constant (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Penetrating (x4; +2), MegaScale (1m = 10,000 km; +2) (37 Active Points); Set Effect (Worship Me!; -1/2)

 

Of course that is not a lot better if you knock out MS and use increased radius on AoE: it is clearly a plot device power, not something that players can get away with (unless they have already used it on the GM!), but the point is not whether the system can be abused, it is whether MS plays an essential role, and it does not: it is just a cheaper way to accomplish the same thing.

 

We already have AoE you can make as big as you like, we already have Increased Range, we already have NCM for movement. If there is a real need to be able to scale things up more cheaply, rather than using a separate advantage, why not just specify that after (say) 4 doublings (i.e. +1 for increased range or AoE and 20 points for movement NCM) each additional +1/4 or +5 points multiplies the range/area/move by 10 rather than 2.

 

That way you have a single system that creates a single progression and everyone gets the same utility for the same cost. And we would save 5 columns of text about Megascale.

 

It just seems more straightforward.

[Christopher]

Re: Mega Scale advantage question

 

OK:

Change Environment (-1 Temperature Level Adjustment), Area of Effect Radius (Doublings to 8400 km radius; +5 1/2) (19 Active Points)

 

If you do it with Megascale, it is cheaper:

Change Environment (-1 Temperature Level Adjustment), Area Of Effect (4m Radius; +1/4), MegaScale (1m = 10,000 km; +2) (10 Active Points)

Surface area is 510,072,000 km2. Unless you place yourself at the center of the earth (needs a lot of heat/preusre resistance and Indirect to get through all this stone), this won't be enough.

 

The game effect is: Everybody on the planet (who doesn't lives in permafrost anyway) needs to take out the next thicker set of clothing. Or just counter it with activity.

 

Combat Effect:

None

Long term effect:

Likely to be none either (every time it is, you just used the local environment to your advantage).

 

10 points for a power with no effect - sounds too expensive for me. But then again you will propably buy more so it will have an effect despite witner clothing. That might just be priced right with 10 AP/Temperature level.

 

So I see your argument against Megascale as a proof for it's validity. It allows you to "make flavourfull, not game breaking abilities" for a decent amount of AP/Real Cost. Wich your cold things is exactly.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mega Scale advantage question

 

Christopher, I'm pretty sure that you would get a pretty strong argument from most environmental scientists that a 10 degree sudden change in global temperature would have a devastating effect. Not on a combat time scale, perhaps, but it would be enough to destroy civilisation if you could keep it up for a day or more. You could certainly cause mass panic and an even worse global recession, as well as wreaking havoc with the weather, which will likely cause the death of millions.

 

You could do that by making it 0 END persistent (adds 3 points to either build) and you could ignore the fact that the planet is in the way by adding Indirect (adds 1 point). That is not really the point though: I'm saying we don't need MegaScale, as we can do it with AoE: it just costs a bit more.

 

I can not see what MS brings to the table that we need.

[Lucius]

Re: Mega Scale advantage question

 

but the point is not whether the system can be abused, it is whether MS plays an essential role, and it does not: it is just a cheaper way to accomplish the same thing.

 

I'm not necessarily even disagreeing, but the same could be said for Martial Arts.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary ponders

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mega Scale advantage question

 

Yes, good point: the 'breakdown' of martial arts has never been clear. It is a sort of hybrid Framework. It does introduce elements that you can not really do otherwise, like the throw, but that could be easily addressed. I like MA, but I do have issues there too (who'd'a thunk it?)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Mega Scale advantage question

 

I'm not necessarily even disagreeing' date=' but the same could be said for Martial Arts.[/quote']

 

Very true.

 

I find it interesting we assert Megascale is not needed for movement because we could get there with noncombat multiples. We could also get noncombat movement speeds by purchasing extra movement directly, and limiting it with "Side Effect: OCV and DCV reduced to 0 while in use", couldn't we? That could simply be a facet of the Concentration limitation.

 

And why do we need FTL travel? Megascale would do the trick. If we ditch Megascale, enough NCM multiples will still get us there. Even ditching NCM, it's still possible to compute the number of meters of flight required to travel faster than light. Of course, this would be very expensive. But you can limit it just like we would limit noncombat movement, and add in "Not within a atmosphere".

 

Sure, it would be expensive, but shouldn't violating the laws of physics be expensive? And if you want to fly 10 meters faster, you pay 10 points to fly 10 meters faster - why should you get a break for measuring your flight speed in light years?

 

And should we have Multipowers? We have the Lockout limitation - a Multipower (and a VPP, for that matter) is just a less expensive means of accomplishing the same thing, having a larger array of abilities at one's disposal with limited simultaneous access. My God! We can cool the entire earth 10 degrees FOR ONLY 2 POINTS as a multipower slot (1 if we also accept Megascale).

 

Who came up with "skill levels"? They're just limited characteristics (probably in one of those munchkin multipowers for combat skill levels)!

 

We can ditch Telekinesis - it's just STR at range, with Indirect tacked on.

 

Well, that's it, the whole game is hideously unbalanced!

[Doc Samson]

Re: Mega Scale advantage question

 

I would just like to point out that if we don't have Megascale, then we can't have have Megascale Growth. What would we do without a single power that grants Megascale Size, Reach, Running, Knockback Resistance, and Area Effect Strength? Please consider the impact that not having Megascale Growth would have on your game.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mega Scale advantage question

 

Very true.

 

I find it interesting we assert Megascale is not needed for movement because we could get there with noncombat multiples. We could also get noncombat movement speeds by purchasing extra movement directly, and limiting it with "Side Effect: OCV and DCV reduced to 0 while in use", couldn't we? That could simply be a facet of the Concentration limitation.

 

And why do we need FTL travel? Megascale would do the trick. If we ditch Megascale, enough NCM multiples will still get us there. Even ditching NCM, it's still possible to compute the number of meters of flight required to travel faster than light. Of course, this would be very expensive. But you can limit it just like we would limit noncombat movement, and add in "Not within a atmosphere".

 

Sure, it would be expensive, but shouldn't violating the laws of physics be expensive? And if you want to fly 10 meters faster, you pay 10 points to fly 10 meters faster - why should you get a break for measuring your flight speed in light years?

 

And should we have Multipowers? We have the Lockout limitation - a Multipower (and a VPP, for that matter) is just a less expensive means of accomplishing the same thing, having a larger array of abilities at one's disposal with limited simultaneous access. My God! We can cool the entire earth 10 degrees FOR ONLY 2 POINTS as a multipower slot (1 if we also accept Megascale).

 

Who came up with "skill levels"? They're just limited characteristics (probably in one of those munchkin multipowers for combat skill levels)!

 

We can ditch Telekinesis - it's just STR at range, with Indirect tacked on.

 

Well, that's it, the whole game is hideously unbalanced!

 

Yes, well, thanks for that.

 

I fear though, that you may be missing the point. I do not really care what it costs to cool the world or blow up the solar system, what I'm saying is that there is no need to have two systems running in parallel when the only difference is cost.

 

MA brings new maneouvres that you can not otherwise obtain. FTL probably could go if we were less mathsophobic. Frameworks provide a discount for certain types of build, it is true, but they do not undermine the cost structure of other powers or modifiers in doing so. TK should probably be built as a talent rather than being a separate power, in fact I think that the Talents section should be expanded to provide superpower level talents.

 

Hero is getting bigger and more expensive, and the fact is that a big glossy book costs a lot and a smaller, cheaper glossy book would probably produce more profit. Want megascale range? Make increasing range cheaper, or change how they are built (say +1/4 doubles range up to +1 then each +1/4 quadruples range up to +2 then octuples range up to +3 and so on) - the point is that it would have been more straightforward to get rid of MS and modifiy the rules for the individual bits it affects, and saved space in doing so.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mega Scale advantage question

 

I would just like to point out that if we don't have Megascale' date=' then we can't have have Megascale Growth. What would we do without a single power that grants Megascale Size, Reach, Running, Knockback Resistance, and Area Effect Strength? Please consider the impact that [i']not[/i] having Megascale Growth would have on your game.

 

Well, none at all, actually. I'm not sure it would be a good idea. The base level of MegaScale would increase a character's Size by a factor of 1000, which would increase their mass by a factor of 1000,000,000, but would not increase their Strength at all. Turn it on, collapse under your own mass.