Durnin gets a new side job!

[RPMiller]

Just thought I would point out a general announcement:

 

New Developer Announced

 

Hey that's me!

 

So does anyone have any comments, questions or concerns that they would like to send my way regarding the San Angelo line?

[Vondy]

First: I liked the San Angelo stuff that was produced previously

Second: Please take what follows not as criticism, but as questions you probably need to answer?

 

1) why should I, the consumer, by San Angelo materials when Hero already has a setting for regular supers, and is planning Hudson City and Vibora Bay settings as well?

 

2) what makes SA unique by comparison? what does it bring to the table that I can't get from the other three setting books? what is its niche?

 

3) will SA be built to current Champions power specifications, or will it be offering a higher or lower powered setting? Will you include notes for using it as such?

 

4) design and layout wise: will you have consistent style and quality artwork (could be black and white, but is it professional quality)?

 

5) what sort of mood will SA present for play? mood is often overlooked, but is a remarkably important subtext. Is it going to be a four color clone of MC, or is their going to be something that sets it apart?

 

6) what sort of products will you produce for the city? just neighborhood books? or, villian books as well? or, adventure books?

 

7) will SA be in the Hero Universe (since DOJ seems friendly to it), or will it be stand-alone? By that same token, will you be making suggestions for how to fit the city into other campaigns?

 

As you can see, my main questions are:

 

1) what sets SA apart from MC, HC, VB? and

2) why do I need it?

[Monolith]

Congrats on moving up the food chain!

 

My only real concern about San Angelo is when will we be seeing new material? Yes, I know you have Dragon's Gate coming out, and then a redo of San Angelo, but many of us already have those products. I think it would be far more beneficial to see some new ideas coming out for San Angelo fairly soon. While I really like the SA books, I really have no desire to rebuy material I already have just to get a dozen or two updated characters. I would much rather buy something unique.

 

And I am not just picking on SA here. I have the same gripe about the DOJ material at times as well. Rehashing and redoing is fine, but most of the time you need brand new material to rewet the appetite.

[Killer Shrike]

Way to go Durnin.

 

MC = Hi Tech Supers Mecca

VB = Arcane

HC = Dark Champs

 

To me San Angelo always kind of equaled lower powered Champs, with a focus more on normals and everyday city life.

 

 

Whats San Angelo revised going to be about?

[Agent X]

My advice is to not to try to "balance" all the characters. I've looked at San Angelo briefly and got the impression of a general sameness toward character construction and concept.

 

Go for broke. Try to make interesting characters and backgrounds. Don't think of them as "a typical brick/blaster/etc." to fill in a slot. I sometimes hear concerns from designers about NPC competition with PCs but I really don't think most gamers get offended when someone creates interesting, vibrant characters. Most of the Champions supplements that people bring up that are character driven seem to be popular because they are interesting characters instead of cookie cutter characters.

[Blue]

Congratulations! I read that announcement a few days ago but did not realize it was one of the board's own.

[Ghost who Walks]

I finally got a hold of a copy of San Angelo this year,and it is in my opinion the best city supplement ever done for the Hero system. Its probably the one single book you need, to start a campaign with. The enemies book was also very well done.

 

What would I like to see in the San Angelo line?

 

I would like to see more of an update of the current material, perhaps with a few years pasing. That would alllow the older stuff to still be used.

 

The sample Heroes (in the original book) could easily be replaced. Ideally, with a couple of teams of heroes, at various levels of power. A street level team, West Coast Avengers styel team (West Coast Champions!) and a secretive vigilante team (possibly based around a metahumam family)

 

More development of the mystical stuff, San Angelo is about the only HERO supplement that gives some examples of it that aren't Demons from dimension X.

 

The personalities mentioned throughout the book were another of its great features. Keep as much of that as you can.

 

The History of San Angelo was great, one of its best features. It allowed setting scenarios in the past, and tying them into the present (again, great for mystical stuff)

 

You will probably want to integrate the corporations metioned in the original San Angelo book, with some of the new 5th edition corporations.

 

All I can think of for now.

Good Luck!

[Gold Rush Games]

Originally posted by D-Man

First: I liked the San Angelo stuff that was produced previously

Second: Please take what follows not as criticism, but as questions you probably need to answer?

Will do.

 

1) why should I, the consumer, by San Angelo materials when Hero already has a setting for regular supers, and is planning Hudson City and Vibora Bay settings as well?

San Angelo: City of Heroes is a critically acclaimed sourcebook detailing the fictional city of San Angelo. It was nominated for an Origins Award for Best RPG Supplement. Kurt Busiek endorsed it. The reviews have been fabulous. It's been emulated by numerous similar products released after it. It's published by Gold Rush Games. And it rocks.

 

(I thought you said that you liked the San Angelo stuff that was produced previously? Are you sure you read them? )

 

2) what makes SA unique by comparison? what does it bring to the table that I can't get from the other three setting books? what is its niche?

I would suggest reading the reviews of the book. They speak volumes. You can get links to many reviews right on the SACoH info page, at http://www.sacoh.com.

 

Also, ask folks in superhero RPG forums (here and elsewhere) what they know about it. I suspect that anyone who owns it would recommend it or at least agree that it is a well done book.

 

3) will SA be built to current Champions power specifications, or will it be offering a higher or lower powered setting? Will you include notes for using it as such?

SACoH2E will focus on "standard" power level heroes, although NPCs will will the gamut from Normals to very high-powered supers (in later books).

 

4) design and layout wise: will you have consistent style and quality artwork (could be black and white, but is it professional quality)?

Is this a serious question? It is our goal and intention to publish products of professional quality, yes.

 

5) what sort of mood will SA present for play?

Supers are wondrous. Life is optimistic. Miracles do happen. Supers are cool. Heroes exist in all forms, from normals to paranormals. Etc.

 

Is it going to be a four color clone of MC, or is their going to be something that sets it apart?

"MC clone?"

 

6) what sort of products will you produce for the city? just neighborhood books? or, villian books as well? or, adventure books?

You should really have a look at the GRG web site and see what's offered there. Specifically, the SACoH line includes the main city sourcebook (which includes details of neighborhoods, businesses, NPC normals *and* supers, et. al.), Enemies of San Angelo (which includes both supervillains and associated normals), and Denizens of San Angelo (which focuses on minor and major NPC Normals in and around the city).

 

The second edition line will include setting and locale descriptions, maps, NPC write-ups, and more, just like the current edition books do.

 

7) will SA be in the Hero Universe (since DOJ seems friendly to it), or will it be stand-alone? By that same token, will you be making suggestions for how to fit the city into other campaigns?

It's its own, unique setting and the main book (original release) does include many notes for integrating San Angelo into a campaign, as will SACoH2E.

[Gold Rush Games]

Originally posted by Monolith

My only real concern about San Angelo is when will we be seeing new material?

The Dragon's Gate in December, and more new books in 2004.

 

Yes, I know you have Dragon's Gate coming out, and then a redo of San Angelo, but many of us already have those products.

You have the 5th Ed. revision of The Dragon's Gate and SACoH2E? Wow! You gotta tell me where to get a time machine, because niether one has been released yet.

 

Seriously, though, I know what you mean.

 

We're going to be focusing on relaunching the setting and attracting even more fans to it (including fans of other systems), thus increasing our potential sales. And increasing sales will help to ensure that we can continue releasing more books in the line.

 

I think it would be far more beneficial to see some new ideas coming out for San Angelo fairly soon.

While I can appreciate what you're saying (and I don't disagree with you), there are a lot of factors involved with bringing a product to press, not the least of which are the people required to edit, write, etc. We're doing what we can and as fast as we can.

 

I'd much rather have the fans gripe at us for being slow than for being sloppy.

 

While I really like the SA books, I really have no desire to rebuy material I already have just to get a dozen or two updated characters.

I'm sorry that you feel that that's all SACoH2E will be. I assure you, you are way off the mark.

 

I would much rather buy something unique.

SACoH2E will be. It's more than a "rehash" of San Angelo. It's a product that will be both familiar and "fresh," introducing new people (and possibly saying goodbye to a few others), updating the events in the campaign setting to 2004, and more.

 

Cut us some slack, dude. I mean, we haven't even really started promoting it yet and you're ready to slam it when you really know nothing about it. It'll be cool. Honest. Just be patient with us. I think what Rob and I do with the series will blow your socks off.

[Gold Rush Games]

Originally posted by Agent X

My advice is to not to try to "balance" all the characters. Go for broke. Try to make interesting characters and backgrounds.

 

Gads. Have you read Enemies of San Angelo?

[Lord Liaden]

Mark, let me say up front that I really admired the creative work that was done on the original San Angelo products. The city itself is more a living, organic whole than any other such setting that I've seen for a supers RPG. There are quite a few SA fans on these boards. I don't think that anyone posting here is saying that it was anything other than a quality product, or that it didn't have all the fine things you describe, so please don't take that as criticism.

 

I think the point that D-Man was originally making was that with the city settings that Hero Games itself is developing - Millennium City as the ultra-modern, wondrous and optimistic supers metropolis (that's what the "MC clone" reference was to); Hudson City for gritty street-level vigilantism a la Batman or Punisher; and Vibora Bay for occult mystery and the gamut of the supernatural from Hellblazer to Dr. Strange - it might be worthwhile to point out where San Angelo differs from those settings, what is unique to it and to the product line, and how that difference translates into a distinct gaming experience.

 

For me, the biggest difference lies with the social fabric of the city's citizens. Heroes have been a significant part of San Angelo's history for quite some time, and have entered into the public consciousness. The setting book emphasised a "bottom up" view of superheroes and villains, the way that normal people view them, interact with them, and adapt their lives to the reality of these extraordinary people in their midst. This gives the setting, paradoxically, a sense of reality, of internal logic and probability, far greater than a book which focuses on the doings of the supers themselves. It also adds a lot of flavor and richness to encounters between PC supers and the host (and it is a host!) of NPCs from all walks of life who populate San Angelo.

 

If your heroes ever want to roleplay smoothing the ruffled feathers of the city fathers over the damage done to downtown in that fight with Amok, or think to ask where to find a contractor to repair that hole in the wall of their base that Photon blew out, City of Heroes has what they're looking for.

 

BTW Durnin, Way to Go!

[Gold Rush Games]

The Dragon's Gate preview next week!

 

Hey, gang! I just wanted to post a brief heads up that we'll be releasing a 14-page PDF preview of The Dragon's Gate: San Angelo's Chinatown at the end of the week!

 

The Dragon's Gate is the Chinatown sourcebook for our critically acclaimed San Angelo superhero RPG setting. The Dragon's Gate contains stats for HERO System, M&M Superlink and Action! System.

 

Watch for the update on our web site this Friday for the link to download this special sneak peak at The Dragon's Gate (scheduled for release in December)! For info about The Dragon's Gate, visit http://www.goldrushgames.com/dgsac.html .

[TheQuestionMan]

CONGRATULATIONS DURIN ! SA's BACK !!

 

It's good to see San Angelo : City of HEROes back where it belongs and back in production . My only complaint with SA:CoHs was I discovered it so late . (well that and Denizens of SA) .

 

My one and only request for the best Superhero Supplement of all time is (drum roll please ..........) MAPS,maps , maps , maps , and more maps of the city , of the community , of city blocks , and maps of buildings . (oh city skyline for MAPS)

 

Thank you DURIN

 

And make mine a HERO by DoJ .

[misterdeath]

Originally posted by Gold Rush Games

SACoH2E will be. It's more than a "rehash" of San Angelo. It's a product that will be both familiar and "fresh," introducing new people (and possibly saying goodbye to a few others), updating the events in the campaign setting to 2004, and more.

 

Cut us some slack, dude. I mean, we haven't even really started promoting it yet and you're ready to slam it when you really know nothing about it. It'll be cool. Honest. Just be patient with us. I think what Rob and I do with the series will blow your socks off.

 

See, the thing is that you have to overcome these perceptions with your advertising campaign.

 

There's a ton of competition for the gamers dollar, and the basic question people have to ask is, "Is this worth me spending money on?"

 

Go back to D-man's questions, and look at them from the standpoint of someone who comes into the gaming store and sees the product on the shelf for the first time, not a grizzled old veteran.

 

I have all the products to date, including the PART and Arroyo Verde downloads. I know the value that the current suppliments have, and I'll quite strongly look at the new product.

 

But, for someone not in the know, or with a smaller gaming budget than yours truely, you have to be able to say "this is what we're about."

 

Not only do you have the Hero products, but also the Freedom City, and whatever the Silver Age Sentinels stuff is called, to compete with.

 

The feel of the city, the value of the product. That's what you need to communicate.

 

D

[misterdeath]

Oh, yeah, and before I forget, congrats Durnin! Again, you rock.

 

D

[Gold Rush Games]

Originally posted by misterdeath

See, the thing is that you have to overcome these perceptions with your advertising campaign.

Yes, I am aware of the need for marketing. My point is that we are not there yet. When we start rolling our the marketing for SACoH2E we'll be extolling its virtues and all the rest.

 

But I still think it odd for someone who claims to "really like" all of the existing SACoH products to then start asking a bunch of questions that (I thought) would be unnecessary for someone familiar with the line. ::shrug::

 

Go back to D-man's questions, and look at them from the standpoint of someone who comes into the gaming store and sees the product on the shelf for the first time, not a grizzled old veteran.

Re-read the first paragraph of his post, please, and then explain to me how I am supposed to view his questions.

 

Give it time. This is not the "big push" for promoting SACoH2E. Far from it. That will come later. I promise.

 

In the meantime, I encourage everyone to check out The Dragon's Gate: San Angelo's Chinatown. If you liked the other three SACoH books released to date, I think you'll really dig The Dragon's Gate, too!

[lemming]

Originally posted by Gold Rush Games

Gads. Have you read Enemies of San Angelo?

I heartily endorse this book. But then I'm a sucker for a brain in a bottle.

[misterdeath]

Originally posted by Gold Rush Games

Yes, I am aware of the need for marketing. My point is that we are not there yet. When we start rolling our the marketing for SACoH2E we'll be extolling its virtues and all the rest.

Cool! Just so we're clear, I'm weed sitting like a rattlesnake watching a baby bird waiting for this.

 

But I still think it odd for someone who claims to "really like" all of the existing SACoH products to then start asking a bunch of questions that (I thought) would be unnecessary for someone familiar with the line. ::shrug::

 

Re-read the first paragraph of his post, please, and then explain to me how I am supposed to view his questions.

 

Ignore the first line. D-man usually asks very good questions separate from his own opinions. I don't like to speak for him, but hey, I'm figuring he left out politeness and niceties. He's been busy.

 

I'm going to go out on a limb here, and say that I think D-man and Monolith just want the best for your company, as do I. So, we're trying to give you what we feel are potential problems, so that you can at least ignore them after you've heard them.

 

Give it time. This is not the "big push" for promoting SACoH2E. Far from it. That will come later. I promise.

 

In the meantime, I encourage everyone to check out The Dragon's Gate: San Angelo's Chinatown. If you liked the other three SACoH books released to date, I think you'll really dig The Dragon's Gate, too!

 

The semi-competent Cybergames (Is that as redundant as I think it is?) .pdf of Chinatown rocks, FWIW.

 

Anxiously awaiting a real paper copy...

 

D

[Gold Rush Games]

Originally posted by misterdeath

Cool! Just so we're clear, I'm weed sitting like a rattlesnake watching a baby bird waiting for this.

I'm not going to touch that one.

 

Ignore the first line.

In that case...They are good questions all.

 

...I think D-man and Monolith just want the best for your company, as do I.

Oh, of that I've no doubt. Wasn't trying to suggest otherwise.

 

I know that HERO fans can be very passionate, indeed. And for that I am grateful. All I ask is to give us a chance to get things going.

 

It's been a long road. The SACoH2E project languished for more than a year before it was determined that we needed to assign someone else to run with it. Unfortunately, during that time I was also tied up with other things so SACoH2E didn't get my full attention, either.

 

Now that Rob is heading up the project, however, I expect things to start rolling along. In fact, he's already going through and making notes about things that need fixing just in the first edition, let alone things we want to change (update, delete or add) for the 2nd Ed.

 

That's where Rob can use your feedback. Obviously the assenbled fans here don't represent the entirety of our audience and market, but you're a substantial portion of it (or at least substantially vocal ). So do tell Rob waht you'd like to see in SACoH2E.

 

And please consider picking it up when it's released. I assure you it will not be "SACoH updated with 5th Ed. character write-ups." It will be much more. Updating the setting from 19997 to 2004 is our goal, and a LOT can happen in seven years, to be sure!

 

So, we're trying to give you what we feel are potential problems, so that you can at least ignore them after you've heard them.

As any long time Hero fans can tell you, I do not ignore our fans. If I had no interest in your opinions, neither I or Rob would ask folks for their input here and on the SACoH mailing list.

 

The...Cybergames .pdf of Chinatown rocks, FWIW.

Anxiously awaiting a real paper copy...

Have you checked out the color Chinatown map on our web site? If not, go download it now! I'd be interested to know what you think.

[Battlestaff]

Originally posted by lemming

I heartily endorse this book. But then I'm a sucker for a brain in a bottle.

 

Hey, who isn't?

[RPMiller]

Originally posted by D-Man

what sort of products will you produce for the city? just neighborhood books? or, villian books as well? or, adventure books?

Lets just say that the line as whole will grow, and it will grow in good ways. You are just going to have to wait and see, but as a fellow gamer I can promise that you'll be very happy.

[RPMiller]

Originally posted by Monolith

Congrats on moving up the food chain!

 

My only real concern about San Angelo is when will we be seeing new material? Yes, I know you have Dragon's Gate coming out, and then a redo of San Angelo, but many of us already have those products. I think it would be far more beneficial to see some new ideas coming out for San Angelo fairly soon. While I really like the SA books, I really have no desire to rebuy material I already have just to get a dozen or two updated characters. I would much rather buy something unique.

 

And I am not just picking on SA here. I have the same gripe about the DOJ material at times as well. Rehashing and redoing is fine, but most of the time you need brand new material to rewet the appetite.

Thank you.

I am already working on the 2nd edition.

Your concerns and feelings are the same as mine. As a long time GM and gamer I understand what you are saying, and believe me, you won't be disappointed.

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Gold Rush Games

Re-read the first paragraph of his post, please, and then explain to me how I am supposed to view his questions.

 

How 'bout I tell you how to read my questions?

 

The questions weren't for me. I own several San Angelo products, and as I said before, I liked them.

 

The questions were for you. I want you to succeed, and as such, I was presenting questions that the consumer will need answered if you want them to purchase your product as opposed to, or in addition to, the other products that are competing for their dollar.

 

I think San Angelo is cool, but I still don't see how the consumer would automatically assume that, and I don't see how it is notably distinct from other four color city setting (namely MC).

 

The source material is well done, but if you don't have a clearly defined niche, or a clear-cut edge in quality (superior layout, artwork, writing) then you don't have a must buy item.

 

And to be frank, DOJs quality is high enough that you must claim a niche for yourself that is distinct from other published products.

 

In essence you should read my questions as: how are you going to position and market your product as unique?

 

The answers you gave were, to be frank, dissmissive, and didn't take the consumer very seriously. In essence, I asked why I, the consumer, should give you my money, and you assumed a tone of smug flippancy. Its not a sales technique many people respond well to.

 

I recommend a different marketing approach. Like actually answering the consumers questions in earnest. Especially when they are trying to help. Asking them "are you sure you read it?" is insulting, and turns people off.

[RPMiller]

Originally posted by Agent X

My advice is to not to try to "balance" all the characters. I've looked at San Angelo briefly and got the impression of a general sameness toward character construction and concept.

 

Go for broke. Try to make interesting characters and backgrounds. Don't think of them as "a typical brick/blaster/etc." to fill in a slot. I sometimes hear concerns from designers about NPC competition with PCs but I really don't think most gamers get offended when someone creates interesting, vibrant characters. Most of the Champions supplements that people bring up that are character driven seem to be popular because they are interesting characters instead of cookie cutter characters.

You need to read the books more thoroughly I think. You would be very impressed with Enemies of San Angelo. I think it is exactly what you are looking for.

[RPMiller]

Originally posted by Ghost who Walks

I would like to see more of an update of the current material, perhaps with a few years pasing. That would alllow the older stuff to still be used.

I am doing exactly that.

 

Originally posted by Ghost who Walks

The sample Heroes (in the original book) could easily be replaced. Ideally, with a couple of teams of heroes, at various levels of power. A street level team, West Coast Avengers styel team (West Coast Champions!) and a secretive vigilante team (possibly based around a metahumam family)

Yes, I have had some of these same thoughts...

 

Originally posted by Ghost who Walks

More development of the mystical stuff, San Angelo is about the only HERO supplement that gives some examples of it that aren't Demons from dimension X.

*shhh* don't tell anyone, but...

 

Originally posted by Ghost who Walks

The personalities mentioned throughout the book were another of its great features. Keep as much of that as you can.

You bet I will! That was something that really attracted me to the material as well.

 

Originally posted by Ghost who Walks

The History of San Angelo was great, one of its best features. It allowed setting scenarios in the past, and tying them into the present (again, great for mystical stuff)

You are very insightful...

 

Originally posted by Ghost who Walks

You will probably want to integrate the corporations metioned in the original San Angelo book, with some of the new 5th edition corporations.

I'm not sure which 5th edition corporations you are referring to. I'm assuming that you are speaking of DoJ material? SA is a different world setting, but there will be suggestions for GMs to use to incorporate/replace both worlds' material.

 

I have never been bound by source material. As a GM, I mix and match material as I see fit, but as the developer of the SA line I will have to stay within its boundries, but you shouldn't let that hinder you and your own creativity.