400 pounds per square inch = ???

[Susano]

So... if I can exert a pressure of 400 lbs per square inch, what's the estimated STR being used? Or, what's the STR damage from such a squeeze?

[RexMundi]

Re: 400 pounds per square inch = ???

 

It depends on How many sq/in said force is being applied through, and how that force is being applied.

 

~Rex..... Had to deal with this a lot for load stress and compressive issues for the last day job.

[Susano]

Re: 400 pounds per square inch = ???

 

It depends on How many sq/in said force is being applied through, and how that force is being applied.

 

~Rex..... Had to deal with this a lot for load stress and compressive issues for the last day job.

 

How about a 48' snake that weighs in at 2,500 pounds?

 

(Right now I have a total of 48 STR for Grabbing and Squeezing.)

[RexMundi]

Re: 400 pounds per square inch = ???

 

Hmm, if we're talking Snakes that's a different ball of Wax. While big Constrictors have piles of Power, they actually do most of their killing by suffocating their prey (Big Continuous NND attack, heh) combined with cardiac arrest from ever increasing pressure. Every time the prey exhales they just tighten up a little. Now that being said they can also Crush things to pulp as well if they have to. At 48' Long you're only around twice as big as some of the Largest Reticulated Pythons and Anacondas in captivity (nature is debatable, especially for the reported attacks....example of one being a 23 foot Reticulated Python that came in at around 300 pounds or so.....)... Some of the Measured Numbers come in around 33 and a half give or take, psi for a green anaconda or about 8,960 pounds of force total.. So if you want to come up with an approximate, use the HERO crushing damage for 18,000 pounds or so for your 48 footer... I will say though, you might want to adjust your weight a bit. They're roughly 300 pounds every 22 feet. Some fluctuations for species and diet. There's a math thingie out there somewhere that works out weight per length of certain species.... going by the Anaconda scale for example, your 48 footer would weigh around 500 pounds and a girth about 44 inches or so, again give or take.....

 

~Rex

[Christopher]

Re: 400 pounds per square inch = ???

 

Hmm' date=' if we're talking Snakes that's a different ball of Wax. While big Constrictors have piles of Power, they actually do most of their killing by suffocating their prey (Big Continuous NND attack, heh)[/quote']

There is a Choke Combat Maneuver. So it could be as easily as extra STR to hold on.

[Susano]

Re: 400 pounds per square inch = ???

 

Hmm' date=' if we're talking Snakes that's a different ball of Wax. While big Constrictors have piles of Power, they actually do most of their killing by suffocating their prey (Big Continuous NND attack, heh) combined with cardiac arrest from ever increasing pressure. Every time the prey exhales they just tighten up a little. Now that being said they can also Crush things to pulp as well if they have to. At 48' Long you're only around twice as big as some of the Largest Reticulated Pythons and Anacondas in captivity (nature is debatable, especially for the reported attacks....example of one being a 23 foot Reticulated Python that came in at around 300 pounds or so.....)... Some of the Measured Numbers come in around 33 and a half give or take, psi for a green anaconda or about 8,960 pounds of force total.. So if you want to come up with an approximate, use the HERO crushing damage for 18,000 pounds or so for your 48 footer... I will say though, you might want to adjust your weight a bit. They're roughly 300 pounds every 22 feet. Some fluctuations for species and diet. There's a math thingie out there somewhere that works out weight per length of certain species.... going by the Anaconda scale for example, your 48 footer would weigh around 500 pounds and a girth about 44 inches or so, again give or take.....[/quote']

 

According to the recreation of the snake in question, 2,500 pounds is an accurate weight. Also, it's about 3' wide. Considering 24-26' feet of Green Anaconda can weigh 500 lbs, with a much smaller width, this sounds about right.

 

Actually, it's not just a case of stating that a 48' snake is equal to two 25' anaconda. It's actually equal to eight, since the 48' snake is not just twice as long, it's also twice as wide and high. So, technically, you're talking 4,000 pounds of animal. But the reconstruction works out to 2,500.

[Markdoc]

Re: 400 pounds per square inch = ???

 

So... if I can exert a pressure of 400 lbs per square inch' date=' what's the estimated STR being used? Or, what's the STR damage from such a squeeze?[/quote']

 

I don't think you can go from this to STR: it's a function of how much area you have, so two entities with very different STR scores could both apply 400 lbs per square inch, depending on area. An eagle can exert about 400 psi, which is far more than a human hand ... but humans are still stronger.

 

Instead work from effect: if you have a giant snake, what do you want it to be able to squeeze to death? For example, 48 STR would turn your average human (or for that matter, a buffalo) to pulp in very short order, but isn't going to kill your average brick (might make him a bit short of breath until he peels it off, though).

 

cheers, Mark

[Susano]

Re: 400 pounds per square inch = ???

 

I don't think you can go from this to STR: it's a function of how much area you have, so two entities with very different STR scores could both apply 400 lbs per square inch, depending on area. An eagle can exert about 400 psi, which is far more than a human hand ... but humans are still stronger.

 

Instead work from effect: if you have a giant snake, what do you want it to be able to squeeze to death? For example, 48 STR would turn your average human (or for that matter, a buffalo) to pulp in very short order, but isn't going to kill your average brick (might make him a bit short of breath until he peels it off, though).

 

I'm trying to model an apparent real-world animal. A constrictor snake 48' long, 3' thick, weighing 2,500 pounds. It apparently fed on 10' lungfish and 15' crocodiles, so it had to be able to squeeze them fairly effectively. 48 STR does 9 BODY per Phase, which is 7 to the average human past defenses. Using the non-heroic value of 8 BODY for the average human, he'd be dead (-8 BODY) in 3 Phases. An 8m crocodile has 14 PD, so it's be pretty much fine. Perhaps I need to add an NND "squeeze" power? Since the snake is effectively suffocating its prey. Or make it's STR Penetrating.

[Bloodstone]

Re: 400 pounds per square inch = ???

 

A decent grappler can choke out a guy in 3-5 seconds once the choke is sunk, but they usually can't maintain a full power choke for more than 20 seconds or so if the guy is defending properly. Guys with exceptionally good squeezing endurance will still tucker out after a minute or so (which is an eternity when you are on the receiving end).

 

Constrictor snakes have the opposite problem. They don't attack the vulnerable neck, they attack a targets whole body. They also don't care if it takes 45 minutes for their prey to stop squirming. They know slow and steady wins the race.

 

So, high STR for Grabbing/Holding on, but not for damage. Damage would be inflicted via a relatively small Continuous NND or a modified choke hold (because rigid neck protection will not help here).

 

I'd make the bonus STR and NND 0 END so they can squeeze for as long as it takes.

 

Of course, while this may be a fairly accurate model of how things work, it may also be dramatically rather lame...

[Markdoc]

Re: 400 pounds per square inch = ???

 

I'm trying to model an apparent real-world animal. A constrictor snake 48' long' date=' 3' thick, weighing 2,500 pounds. It apparently fed on 10' lungfish and 15' crocodiles, so it had to be able to squeeze them fairly effectively. 48 STR does 9 BODY per Phase, which is 7 to the average human past defenses. Using the non-heroic value of 8 BODY for the average human, he'd be dead (-8 BODY) in 3 Phases. An 8m crocodile has 14 PD, so it's be pretty much fine. Perhaps I need to add an NND "squeeze" power? Since the snake is effectively suffocating its prey. Or make it's STR Penetrating.[/quote']

 

Nah, you're good as is. The constrictor simply suffocates its prey until it's out (ie: -10 STUN) and then either crushes it until it goes into cardiac arrest or starts to eat it. Either way, it's history.

 

Here's the appropriate rule (6E 106):

 

"If the character’s been Knocked Out further (below -10 STUN), he’s completely unconscious and has lost contact with the world around him — he’s out cold. He falls down, unable to keep his feet at all. A character in this state of unconsciousness can be killed automatically as a Full Phase Action by any character with the means to do so (a Killing Attack or other powerful attack) who makes a successful Attack Roll against the unconscious character."

 

If that doesn't do it for you, the snake can simply haymaker once the target is out, doing an average of 14-15 BOD. It'd take a while, but eventually, the croc is going to die - and it's never going to have a chance to recover consciousness.

 

cheers, Mark

[Susano]

Re: 400 pounds per square inch = ???

 

Nah, you're good as is. The constrictor simply suffocates its prey until it's out (ie: -10 STUN) and then either crushes it until it goes into cardiac arrest or starts to eat it. Either way, it's history.

 

Here's the appropriate rule (6E 106):

 

"If the character’s been Knocked Out further (below -10 STUN), he’s completely unconscious and has lost contact with the world around him — he’s out cold. He falls down, unable to keep his feet at all. A character in this state of unconsciousness can be killed automatically as a Full Phase Action by any character with the means to do so (a Killing Attack or other powerful attack) who makes a successful Attack Roll against the unconscious character."

 

If that doesn't do it for you, the snake can simply haymaker once the target is out, doing an average of 14-15 BOD. It'd take a while, but eventually, the croc is going to die - and it's never going to have a chance to recover consciousness.

 

cheers, Mark

 

I went with the CE Suffocation power from APG I, and also made the STR Penetrating, ensuring even a little STUN gets through.

[Christopher]

Re: 400 pounds per square inch = ???

 

I'm trying to model an apparent real-world animal. A constrictor snake 48' long' date=' 3' thick, weighing 2,500 pounds. It apparently fed on 10' lungfish and 15' crocodiles, so it had to be able to squeeze them fairly effectively. 48 STR does 9 BODY per Phase, which is 7 to the average human past defenses. Using the non-heroic value of 8 BODY for the average human, he'd be dead (-8 BODY) in 3 Phases. An 8m crocodile has 14 PD, so it's be pretty much fine. Perhaps I need to add an NND "squeeze" power? Since the snake is effectively suffocating its prey. Or make it's STR Penetrating.[/quote']

If you try to model a real creature in Hero, the last thing you should do is look a the physics. The real world is a physics simulation (the best one we know of). Hero is not and has never even remotely be intended to be.

The snakes ability to choke certain other animals to death - that is not helping here either. You won't use them against Animals. You will use them against heroic or superherouc characters. And since those prey animals aren't modeled to be physically correct realtive to humans as well, this is like trying to figure out the lenght of something by using the smell sense.

What might actually help is to know the danger it is for a normal human.

 

For your kill calculation, keep in mind that just K.O. ing the target is enough to kill it. Unconscious targets don't resist grabs, so once you reach that point it's getting pointless to track body at all (unless help is on the way) - because the choker/crusher will win.

 

We do have a pre-built maneuver to kill somebody the way a snake does: Choke, 6E2 84.

The only real problem I see, is that it does not cancel multiple limbs (but then again, does the snake do this in the first phase? Or does it multiattack in following phases to chocke and grab more limbs?). It's defined as 1d6 NND (obvious defenses).

If you need more, just make a small NND with the same condition and "only while grabbing". Or just give the snake more squeezing damage.

 

On simple way is to give the snake Martial Arts:

A Grab, with bad DCV but extra STR to hold on.

One NND, only while grabbing.

One Dodge, requires half phase movement (to represent it slithering away on the ground)

[RexMundi]

Re: 400 pounds per square inch = ???

 

According to the recreation of the snake in question, 2,500 pounds is an accurate weight. Also, it's about 3' wide. Considering 24-26' feet of Green Anaconda can weigh 500 lbs, with a much smaller width, this sounds about right.

 

Actually, it's not just a case of stating that a 48' snake is equal to two 25' anaconda. It's actually equal to eight, since the 48' snake is not just twice as long, it's also twice as wide and high. So, technically, you're talking 4,000 pounds of animal. But the reconstruction works out to 2,500.

 

Oh you're absolutely correct Snakes can get to be a bit odd when it comes to size and mass and species. I took my numbers from real critters down the road here and one of the books off the shelf (The Giant Snakes, by Clifford Pope .....interesting read but a bit dry compared to a couple of the other ones up there....)... You can get immense differences in Mass between species. Reticulated Pythons have come in around 33 feet by the record so far, but it's outweighed by Anaconda's that are shorter in length.

 

From the size and weight you're going for I'm guessing you are trying to reconstruct Titanoboa. Titanoboa was a big critter but even though some estimates toss it in the 48' 2500 pound range that was just the largest found in the pile (Worlds heaviest Discovered Snake so far). Still, 48' long plus 2500 pounds and upwards of 3 feet thick in places and a diet of alligators and the like, makes for a big snake but at that size too it's bite would be something horrific as well which is often overlooked in snake builds. Just a normal Python or Anaconda Bite is nasty as all hell...

 

Should be interesting when it's done. Be another good critter to add to the critter pile....

 

~Rex

[RexMundi]

Re: 400 pounds per square inch = ???

 

I don't think you can go from this to STR: it's a function of how much area you have, so two entities with very different STR scores could both apply 400 lbs per square inch, depending on area. An eagle can exert about 400 psi, which is far more than a human hand ... but humans are still stronger.

 

Instead work from effect: if you have a giant snake, what do you want it to be able to squeeze to death? For example, 48 STR would turn your average human (or for that matter, a buffalo) to pulp in very short order, but isn't going to kill your average brick (might make him a bit short of breath until he peels it off, though).

 

cheers, Mark

 

Building from Effect should be a T-Shirt for this game, heh.

 

~Rex

[Susano]

Re: 400 pounds per square inch = ???

 

Oh you're absolutely correct Snakes can get to be a bit odd when it comes to size and mass and species. I took my numbers from real critters down the road here and one of the books off the shelf (The Giant Snakes, by Clifford Pope .....interesting read but a bit dry compared to a couple of the other ones up there....)... You can get immense differences in Mass between species. Reticulated Pythons have come in around 33 feet by the record so far, but it's outweighed by Anaconda's that are shorter in length.

 

From the size and weight you're going for I'm guessing you are trying to reconstruct Titanoboa. Titanoboa was a big critter but even though some estimates toss it in the 48' 2500 pound range that was just the largest found in the pile (Worlds heaviest Discovered Snake so far). Still, 48' long plus 2500 pounds and upwards of 3 feet thick in places and a diet of alligators and the like, makes for a big snake but at that size too it's bite would be something horrific as well which is often overlooked in snake builds. Just a normal Python or Anaconda Bite is nasty as all hell...

 

Should be interesting when it's done. Be another good critter to add to the critter pile....

 

~Rex

 

Character sheet here: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/89391-Titanoboa?p=2315033#post2315033

[Matt the Bruins]

Re: 400 pounds per square inch = ???

 

(because rigid neck protection will not help here)

 

I assume that rigid torso armor (like a full suit of plate) that allows the wearer to expand and contract for breathing within its confines would, though. As long as the snake's not strong enough to squish it down to full contact with the wearer, anyway.

[RexMundi]

Re: 400 pounds per square inch = ???

 

The snake is strong enough. Some great video out there showing just how strong these snakes are.

 

~Rex

[Christopher]

Re: 400 pounds per square inch = ???

 

I assume that rigid torso armor (like a full suit of plate) that allows the wearer to expand and contract for breathing within its confines would' date=' though. As long as the snake's not strong enough to squish it down to full contact with the wearer, anyway.[/quote']

Since the big snakes choke your torso, this won't help one bit.

[Sean Waters]

Re: 400 pounds per square inch = ???

 

Hmm. How big are a pair of feet? About the size of a sheet of A4, so that would be about 30cm (or about 12 inches) by about 21 com (or about 8 inches) and 100kg is 220 pounds, so that is 220/96, or about 2.3 pounds per square inch.

 

OK, STR 10 is 2.3 pounds per square inch, which means 400 pounds per square inch is, hmm, 2,4,8,16,32,64,128,256,512, that is 8 doublings, which is +40 STR, so a little under 50 STR, which means you got it just right with 28+20.

 

Cool.

[Susano]

Re: 400 pounds per square inch = ???

 

Hmm. How big are a pair of feet? About the size of a sheet of A4, so that would be about 30cm (or about 12 inches) by about 21 com (or about 8 inches) and 100kg is 220 pounds, so that is 220/96, or about 2.3 pounds per square inch.

 

OK, STR 10 is 2.3 pounds per square inch, which means 400 pounds per square inch is, hmm, 2,4,8,16,32,64,128,256,512, that is 8 doublings, which is +40 STR, so a little under 50 STR, which means you got it just right with 28+20.

 

Cool.

 

Wow, am I good or what?

[Sean Waters]

Re: 400 pounds per square inch = ???

 

Wow' date=' am I good are what?[/quote']

 

The Hero is strong in this one

 

Nice build, by the way. Depending on what sort of characters will be playing, I might limit the coil strength with a delay for using (say an extra phase) so that normals have a chance: it will be bad enough escaping a 28 STR grab, a 48 STR grab could be fatal for anything less than a superbeing, or another huge snake.

[Markdoc]

Re: 400 pounds per square inch = ???

 

Hmm. How big are a pair of feet? About the size of a sheet of A4, so that would be about 30cm (or about 12 inches) by about 21 com (or about 8 inches) and 100kg is 220 pounds, so that is 220/96, or about 2.3 pounds per square inch.

 

OK, STR 10 is 2.3 pounds per square inch, which means 400 pounds per square inch is, hmm, 2,4,8,16,32,64,128,256,512, that is 8 doublings, which is +40 STR, so a little under 50 STR, which means you got it just right with 28+20.

 

Cool.

 

Wow' date=' am I good or what?[/quote']

 

 

Ummmm. This makes no sense at all. As I noted to Mike before, you can only make a correlation between STR and psi by taking area into account: there is no direct correlation. Did I miss an intended smilely?

 

Superman might have 100 STR, but still weighs the same and still has the same sized feet as a normal, very muscular human. There's no correlation between shoe size and STR in Hero. Using this calculation the snake - having a greater surface area relative to its mass - would have less strength than a human! Take it further, a human (humans don't actually have A4 sized feet: even both together are much smaller) actually exerts about 8 psi while standing (more while running, of course, much more in high heels), which throws even this calculation out the window.

 

Amusingly, an Abrams tank (which has wide treads) only has a ground pressure about double that of a human foot, meaning two normal humans could presumably grab it and hold it in place against the full force of the engine ... or maybe not. Seriously, this calculation can't be used for anything at all.

 

 

cheers, Mark

[bigbywolfe]

Re: 400 pounds per square inch = ???

 

Ummmm. This makes no sense at all. As I noted to Mike before, you can only make a correlation between STR and psi by taking area into account: there is no direct correlation. Did I miss an intended smilely?

 

Superman might have 100 STR, but still weighs the same and still has the same sized feet as a normal, very muscular human. There's no correlation between shoe size and STR in Hero. Using this calculation the snake - having a greater surface area relative to its mass - would have less strength than a human! Take it further, a human (humans don't actually have A4 sized feet: even both together are much smaller) actually exerts about 8 psi while standing (more while running, of course, much more in high heels), which throws even this calculation out the window.

 

Amusingly, an Abrams tank (which has wide treads) only has a ground pressure about double that of a human foot, meaning two normal humans could presumably grab it and hold it in place against the full force of the engine ... or maybe not. Seriously, this calculation can't be used for anything at all.

 

 

cheers, Mark

 

Stilleto heels worn by an 100 lb. woman can inflict over 1,500 psi while a 6,000 lb. elephant only exerts about 75 psi. High heels are the bane of hardwood floors everywhere...

[Susano]

Re: 400 pounds per square inch = ???

 

Ummmm. This makes no sense at all. As I noted to Mike before, you can only make a correlation between STR and psi by taking area into account: there is no direct correlation. Did I miss an intended smilely?

 

Superman might have 100 STR, but still weighs the same and still has the same sized feet as a normal, very muscular human. There's no correlation between shoe size and STR in Hero. Using this calculation the snake - having a greater surface area relative to its mass - would have less strength than a human! Take it further, a human (humans don't actually have A4 sized feet: even both together are much smaller) actually exerts about 8 psi while standing (more while running, of course, much more in high heels), which throws even this calculation out the window.

 

Amusingly, an Abrams tank (which has wide treads) only has a ground pressure about double that of a human foot, meaning two normal humans could presumably grab it and hold it in place against the full force of the engine ... or maybe not. Seriously, this calculation can't be used for anything at all.

 

Awww... you're no fun.

[Matt the Bruins]

Re: 400 pounds per square inch = ???

 

I'm also pretty sure I've seen figures for the bite pressure of wolves measured around 400 p.s.i. by some of the folks at National Geographic. That's only 4 DC in the Bestiary write-up.