Too Many Complications

[mayapuppies]

So I'm building a racial package and it turns out that the race, baseline, has more Complications than the original campaign limits.

 

I'm looking for suggestions as to what to do with this.

 

Reducing the racial complications takes away from the race build and increasing the campaign limits puts an onerous chore on the potential PC's of other races.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Too Many Complications

 

Can you list the complications? Maybe there's some that are less than central, or which could be expressed some other way?

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Too Many Complications

 

I would suggest maybe combing some complications together, instead of listing each separately. Instead of (for example) insect eyes, insect communicate, insect organs, etc. Just have insect form and list how together it is different than a "normal" person.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Too Many Complications

 

Comes out to 75pts and campaign limit is currently set to 50pts

• Distinctive Features: Neb (Concealable; Noticed and Recognizable; Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses; Not Distinctive In Some Cultures)
  
• Physical Complication: Compound Eyes (Frequently; Greatly Impairing): This character cannot see objects clearly if they are more than a few feet away. When using a ranged attack, all of the character's range modifiers are doubled.
  
• Physical Complication: Mute (Very Frequently; Greatly Impairing)
  
• Physical Complication: Normal Characteristic Maxima (Infrequently; Barely Impairing)
  
• Physical Complication: Skin Must Be Uncovered To Breathe (Infrequently; Slightly Impairing)
  
• Vulnerability: 1 1/2 x Effect Gases (Uncommon)
  
• Vulnerability: 1 1/2 x Effect Sight Based Flashes (Uncommon)
  

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Too Many Complications

 

Do you really need noraml characterististica maxmima? I thought that in heroic games, that is a 0 cost limitation? I'm assuming that this is a herioc game. Perhaps combine the compound eyes limitation with the flash vulnerability? Or at least make the flash a zero point too. How often is flash going to come up, plus since they can "see" really good with their other senses, its not going to be that great of a limitation if they got flashed. And again how imparing is mute going to be when they communicate by other means? Unless of course this is a pc character, then it could be. Anyways these are just some ideas off the cuff. Good luck!

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Too Many Complications

 

First off, a mute character seems like a pain in the posterior to play from the outset. Does this entire race lack the ability to communicate readily with other races? If so, how does it interact enough to be a viable PC race?

 

I agree with Ninja-Bear - can some of these be combined? How common are gaseous attacks in game? Perhaps this is an aspect of breathing through one's skin. If its features are concealable, it presumably can cover up in some manner without suffocating. Maybe it doesn't need the Vulnerable to Gas, it just can't hold its breath due to its skin-based breathing. And is it really easier to cover its skin so it can't breathe than to choke a human or block its limited air intake options? It seems like skin-based breathing has some advantages - could "can't hold breath" actually be a Side Effect of a power that is Always On, moving it out of complications entirely?

 

I assume NCM is not a campaign requirement, or it would not be a complication. That being the case, perhaps this exotic race should not suffer from NCM.

 

How much does "range penalties are doubled/can't see clearly at a distance" impair the creature compared to the value of complete blindness? Full Blindness is a sellback in 6e - what if you adopted a campaign rule that limited sensory loss is also a Sellback? If Sight is worth 35 points (6e1 209), perhaps Sight with Limited Range is a -1/2 limitation so you get a 12 point sellback. This would, to me, be especially appropriate if this offsets the cost of other senses being enhanced. This departs from the 6e base rules, but could certainly be a campaign standard.

 

If Sight is a sellback, why shouldn't Mute be a sellback? That would solve a lot of the issue. 6e2 p10 suggests the possibility of "Voice as a sense" at a cost of 25 points, so sellback would be consistent with the rule for blindness.

 

Personally, I'd be reluctant to leave a character with no point benefit from plot hook complications like Psych's, so using up close to the full allotment with a package would ideally be avoided, but 50 points isn't a lot if you have a big Complication or two.

 

CROSSPOST: hmmm...6e2 p10 discusses "Voice as a Sense". If we extrapolate that, perhaps we could apply the Simulated Sense Group rule to say that most characters have Voice as part of the Hearing Sense Group, but these creatures have Voice as part of the Smell/Taste group. It's not Flashed by Hearing Flash, or blocked by Silence Fields, but it's also limited by the fact most characters have very crude Discriminatory for smell, and wind would impact Smell's range modifiers. That gets rid of Mute since you don't lose Voice, but transform it.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Too Many Complications

 

Do you really need noraml characterististica maxmima? I thought that in heroic games' date=' that is a 0 cost limitation? I'm assuming that this is a herioc game.[/quote']

I assume NCM is not a campaign requirement' date=' or it would not be a complication. That being the case, perhaps this exotic race should not suffer from NCM.[/quote']

NCM is a standard in the setting, but there are those (called Paragons) that are not required to take it. I'm still working on deciding whether or not I should represent this as NCM as a Complication or have the Paragons buy a Talent that, in affect, "buys off" the NCM limitation.

 

 

Perhaps combine the compound eyes limitation with the flash vulnerability? Or at least make the flash a zero point too. How often is flash going to come up' date=' plus since they can "see" really good with their other senses, its not going to be that great of a limitation if they got flashed.[/quote']

 

And again how imparing is mute going to be when they communicate by other means? Unless of course this is a pc character' date=' then it could be. Anyways these are just some ideas off the cuff. Good luck![/quote']

They are a playable PC race

 

First off' date=' a mute character seems like a pain in the posterior to play from the outset. Does this entire race lack the ability to communicate readily with other races? If so, how does it interact enough to be a viable PC race?[/quote']

See below

 

I agree with Ninja-Bear - can some of these be combined? How common are gaseous attacks in game? Perhaps this is an aspect of breathing through one's skin.

It is a feature of breathing through the skin. I marked the attacks as Uncommon, but considering the use of high magic in the setting I have no idea how common or uncommon they will actually be at this point.

 

If its features are concealable' date=' it presumably can cover up in some manner without suffocating. Maybe it doesn't need the Vulnerable to Gas, it just can't hold its breath due to its skin-based breathing. And is it really easier to cover its skin so it can't breathe than to choke a human or block its limited air intake options? It seems like skin-based breathing has some advantages - could "can't hold breath" actually be a Side Effect of a power that is Always On, moving it out of complications entirely?[/quote']

Good catch, those features are not supposed to be Concealable, an artifact of cut-n-paste. The Complicaiton about leaving skin uncovered is to indicate that they will not wear clothing or armor and to have a mechanical reason to avoid power gamers and rules lawyers pointing to a lack of mechanical restriction on the ability.

 

How much does "range penalties are doubled/can't see clearly at a distance" impair the creature compared to the value of complete blindness? Full Blindness is a sellback in 6e - what if you adopted a campaign rule that limited sensory loss is also a Sellback? If Sight is worth 35 points (6e1 209), perhaps Sight with Limited Range is a -1/2 limitation so you get a 12 point sellback. This would, to me, be especially appropriate if this offsets the cost of other senses being enhanced. This departs from the 6e base rules, but could certainly be a campaign standard.

 

If Sight is a sellback, why shouldn't Mute be a sellback? That would solve a lot of the issue. 6e2 p10 suggests the possibility of "Voice as a sense" at a cost of 25 points, so sellback would be consistent with the rule for blindness.

I'd like to avoid using house rules that depart from 6E rules and try to make the builds as compatible with Hero Designer as possible.

 

Personally' date=' I'd be reluctant to leave a character with no point benefit from plot hook complications like Psych's, so using up close to the full allotment with a package would ideally be avoided, but 50 points isn't a lot if you have a big Complication or two.[/quote']

Me too, this is why I'm trying to get this hammered out and I really appreciate all the help I'm getting so far.

 

Here is the race write-up, which may help with all of this:

 

APPEARANCE

The Neb resemble humanoid translucent yellow ants, that, like most humanoids have only four limbs rather than the six or more you would expect for an insectile species. They stand just over six feet tall on average and are quite heavy for their size, averaging about 250 pounds at six feet tall.

 

Neb do not breathe as humans do, instead they absorb oxygen through their chitin, this is an uncontrollable process and thus they are incapable of holding their breath. Because of this they are incapable of swimming without some form of magical protection.

 

This form of respiration renders the Neb immune to physical choking attacks, but they are far more susceptible to gases, both harmful and beneficial.

 

As a rule, the Neb, regardless of culture avoid wearing any sort of clothing or armor as it restricts the flow of air significantly. Instead they rely on the strength of their chitin to protect them from weather and attacks.

 

Neb do not differentiate between male or female when speaking of themselves or others and it is impossible for none Neb to discern the differences. The Neb language does not have male or female pronouns but over time they have come to call females egg-layers and all males as fertilizers.

 

DIET

Neb are fungivores by nature, though they are capable of digesting most plant matter if it is necessary.

 

LANGUAGE

The Neb are completely mute, unable to vocalize. They communicate amongst themselves via complex pheromones. They are perfectly capable of understanding other cultural languages and have even developed a sign language to communicate with non-Neb.

 

SENSES

The Neb have compound eyes that allow them to see 240 degrees and their sense of smell is extremely acute. The rest of the Neb’s senses are the same as humans.

 

REPRODUCTION

Neb have no physical differences between the sexes that are obvious to non-Neb, however, they are differentiated internally with females capable of laying eggs throughout their lives. It is estimated that they can lay a single egg every day of their adult life. However, fertilization is limited by the male’s inability to produce enough sperm more than once a month.

 

Once an egg is fertilized by the male, a process that involves the egg being laid and then the male punctures it and injects his semen, it takes approximately 2 months for the larvae to mature enough to hatch.

 

The newly hatched larvae remain in a pupae state for 5 years. During this time the pupae is completely helpless and incapable of doing anything other than feeding as it’s maggot-like body slowly transforms into a fully developed adult Neb.

 

LIFE CYCLE

Neb have an accelerated lifespan, attaining adulthood at the age of 5 on average and considered middle aged around 15. Most do not live beyond the age of 30.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Too Many Complications

 

On to the breathing thing. Instead of building it as a complication you mention a Side Effect, so what about this:

 

Permeable Chitin: Life Support (Self-Contained Breathing), Inherent (+1/4) (12 Active Points); Limited Power (Only To Protect Against Choking/Suffocation/Strangulation Attacks That Do Not Cover The Entire Body; -1), Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (Cannot Wear Any Clothing Or Armor; -1/2)

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Too Many Complications

 

Mayapuppies there is from the old game Star Frontiers game a race called the Vrusk who are intelligent insects. And I believe that Nolgroth converted Star Frontiers in Hero system. I think it would worth a look. A problem the vrusk had with breathing through the skin was that they couldn't swim do they couldn't hold their breath.

 

Since Hugh mentioned the communication thing, most fictional insect races at least could do some sort of clicks as language at least to other races. Maybe consider something like Star Wars (weg ed) certain races couldn't speak basic (such as wookiees) but could be understood by other races (Han).

[Christopher]

Re: Too Many Complications

 

You should always differentiate between obvious and effective Complication value. Remember, this is about how much it limits in the effective game.

For example the might not have a voice, but if the game features technical, magical or natural* resources that allow them to talk to others it can lower the value. For example a simple Vocalizer can lower thefrequency of mute from Very Frequently to Rare (only when he forgets his vocalizer or it is damage). I guarantee you that with forced total Mute, no player will even consider to play this race, no mater what else it offers.

NCM should not be in there. The template only contains what 100% of the species have. If player characters don't have too take it, then it does not belong there.

 

Can you give us what you have right now?

 

 

*For example a sort of symbiotic bable fish. Those that don't adventure/deal with outsiders never even consider getting one. But PC's will likely get one even before they start adventuring.

 

http://www.myspace.com/video/scrim/babel-fish/17062542

 

[mayapuppies]

Re: Too Many Complications

 

Here is the template so far including all the changes based on the various threads I've been posting about them.

 

 

Characteristics

• Strength +3

• Physical Defense -2

• Energy Defense -2

• Swimming -4

 

Skills

• Language: Pheromone Communication (idiomatic) (4 Active Points); Limited Power (Must Have Pheromone Communication Power; -1)

 

Powers

• Chitin: Resistant Protection (6 PD/6 ED)

• Compound Eyes: Increased Arc Of Perception (240 Degrees) with Normal Sight

• Mandibles: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1/2d6 (1d6+1 w/STR)

• Permeable Chitin: +2 PER with Normal Smell

• Permeable Chitin: Life Support (Self-Contained Breathing), Inherent (+1/4) (12 Active Points); Limited Power (Only To Protect Against Choking/Suffocation/Strangulation Attacks That Do Not Cover The Entire Body; -1), Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (Cannot Wear Any Clothing Or Armor; -1/2)

• Pheromone Communication: Voice Is Based On Smell Sense Group Instead Of Hearing Sense Group

 

Talents

• Compound Eyes: Lightning Reflexes (+1 DEX to act first with All Actions)

 

Complications

• Distinctive Features: Neb (Not Concealable; Noticed and Recognizable; Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses; Not Distinctive In Some Cultures)

• Physical Complication: Compound Eyes (Infrequently; Greatly Impairing): This character cannot see objects clearly if they are more than a few feet away. When using a ranged attack, all of the character's range modifiers are doubled.

• Vulnerability: 1 1/2 x Effect Sight Based Flashes and Gases (Uncommon)

[Christopher]

Re: Too Many Complications

 

You idiomatic Language is a Free Everyman Skill. At it could even be a sellback (4 points normal, 2 points real)

Depending on the Rules for addign Damage, the KA could be worthless. Have you considered Reduced Penetration for it?

[mayapuppies]

Re: Too Many Complications

 

The language is free and doesn't add to the costs of the template.

 

The rules for adding damage are standard for 6E. I usually ad Reduced Penetration for natural weapons, but for this particular case, since the Neb often attack each other with those things, I figure they are sharp enough to cut through chitin.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Too Many Complications

 

The language is free and doesn't add to the costs of the template.

In fact, I generally don't include skills in Racial Templates, this is a big exception.

[Christopher]

Re: Too Many Complications

 

The rules for adding damage are standard for 6E. I usually ad Reduced Penetration for natural weapons' date=' but for this particular case, since the Neb often attack each other with those things, I figure they are sharp enough to cut through chitin.[/quote']

I meant that at the current level, they might not do enough damage and depending on the campaign rules they can't add any more damage. 1d6+1 has only a 1/6 chance to do one body after thier own chitin armor.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Too Many Complications

 

True.

 

I'll bump that up to 1d6 base.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Too Many Complications

 

Wow I think the chitin is alittle high at 6pd/6ed but am I right to think that this is to compensate that he can't wear armor?

[Christopher]

Re: Too Many Complications

 

Wow I think the chitin is alittle high at 6pd/6ed but am I right to think that this is to compensate that he can't wear armor?

I would think not being able to wear armor is to compensate for the Chitin.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Too Many Complications

 

Seems like a Wizard Neb with protective spells would be amazingly well defended (of course, if they need to vocalize spells, that could be a problem...)

[dmjalund]

Re: Too Many Complications

 

Distinctive Features is only a limitation if being recognised as a Neb is a significant limitation a significant amount of the time.

[Christopher]

Re: Too Many Complications

 

Distinctive Features is only a limitation if being recognised as a Neb is a significant limitation a significant amount of the time.

It can already be distinctive to stand out, because it makes it that much harder to hide in a crowd. (see example Racial Templates on 6E1 38)

When the campaign is unlikely to ever go to the characters home area, he might not even needs to inlcude the "not disctive in some soceities" penalty.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Too Many Complications

 

I assume NCM is not a campaign requirement, or it would not be a complication. That being the case, perhaps this exotic race should not suffer from NCM.

 

What I was thinking here Hugh is that I beleive that you are allowed to take more complications than the campaign limit but just don't receive points for them, so this I thought would be a likely canidate for it.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Too Many Complications

 

One more thought about the chitin. Iirc, there is a reason why crabs in the arctic can get bigger than land spiders and it has to do with the weight of the exoskeleton. The big the critter, the heavier the armor, and since the arctic crabs in water they don't have to worry about the weight as much. So I would lower the natural PD of the neb, but then you sorta painted yourself in a corner with the no wearing clothes deal. Perhaps the Neb are deft with shields, and they wear a harness that provides alittle armor, but it is more designed to deflect a strike than absorb a strike. Perhaps game terms a bonus to DCV? I believe that armor like Samurai was designed that way, which reflects a different philosopohy than the West.

[Lucius]

Re: Too Many Complications

 

Great advice in the thread already, especially from Hugh Neilson, regarding Combining Complications, using "Sellbacks" and defining some drawbacks as Side Effects of the species inherent abilities.

 

 

So I'm building a racial package and it turns out that the race, baseline, has more Complications than the original campaign limits.

 

I'm looking for suggestions as to what to do with this.

 

Reducing the racial complications takes away from the race build and increasing the campaign limits puts an onerous chore on the potential PC's of other races.

 

My first response is - don't require player characters to always take the maximum in Complications. The Rules as Written don't really require that, although for some reason they are written as if to imply it.

 

 

Do you really need noraml characterististica maxmima?

 

No one really needs Normal Characteristic Maxima. Some people think they do, but it was a bad idea from the start. It's like the Flinstones Car.

 

 

NCM is a standard in the setting, but there are those (called Paragons) that are not required to take it. I'm still working on deciding whether or not I should represent this as NCM as a Complication or have the Paragons buy a Talent that, in affect, "buys off" the NCM limitation.

 

........

 

I'd like to avoid using house rules that depart from 6E rules and try to make the builds as compatible with Hero Designer as possible.

 

Then I have a good idea for you - forget Normal Characteristic Maxima. Allow characteristics that fit the character concept. Disallow characteristics that don't fit. Don't allow a player to violate concept by paying double. You wouldn't allow a Human character to buy Neb-like chiton if they pay double cost, would you?

 

Remember that car from "The Flintstones?" The whole family piles into it, then they stick their feet through the floor and start running. It LOOKS like a car. You think of a car as something that makes it easier to get around. But the Flinstones Car is just extra weight the family drags along as they run around. Normal Characteristic Maxima is the same way. It doesn't do anything for you that you can't do better without it.

 

 

Other than that, I can only echo and perhaps elaborate on what's already been said.

 

Consider a single "Physical Complication: Neb" that is high value and incorporates the assorted miscellaneous weaknesses.

 

Consider selling back Sight entirely and then buying it back Neb-style, or buying the expanded vision with Side Effects including the Flash vulnerability, the extra Range penalty, etc.

 

6 pts of natural armor is perhaps a little high, but not necessarily outrageous - but this thread is for discussing Complications, not the build as a whole.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary argues that

a good idea for you - forget Normal Characteristic Maxima

isn't a "good idea" it's just getting rid of a BAD idea.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Too Many Complications

 

My first response is - don't require player characters to always take the maximum in Complications. The Rules as Written don't really require that' date=' although for some reason they are written as if to imply it. [/quote']

 

Good advice, but I find players do always take the max in complications. It wasn't that long ago that a 150 point Heroic character had 75 points in complications.

 

As to NCM, can he also have a complication for "Powers with a focus that would cover his skin cost double"?