Aid as a way to get around Healing

[Duane From RI]

The campaign I'm working on, healers are important and therefore I intend there to be fewer limits on healing - in other words the once per day paradigm is out.

Nonetheless I want to set the cost of healing at a certain point to encourage the use of limitations such as extra time, concentration and so on.

BUT...

Aid has a built in heal feature. If you Aid someone's STUN, when they take STUN damage it comes off the aided portion. When the aided portion fades a little, no further STUN is lost. And with the aided portion faded a touch, you can throw a die or two of Aid that person's way to give them more STUN up to the amount that faded.

 

Setting the price point for Healing will be a task in and of itself. Balancing that costing exercise with the possibility that characters could use Aid to some effect makes the chore too hard.

 

SO...

I want to close the "comes off the aided portion loophole". My thought is that if you Aid someone's STUN and they take STUN damage, it comes out of their base STUN. More importantly when Aid fades, the STUN is actually lost.

 

From a purely mechanical point of view, what is the drawback of closing this loophole? Looking for thoughts.

[Christopher]

Re: Aid as a way to get around Healing

 

As I understand it your problems are only with Stun in Combat Situations.

Or is there a problem with body/the rest as well?

 

When you want abundant healing outside of combat, you could allow Regeneration, UOO. But the recipient needs extra time and Concentration throughout to use it (he has to actually rest).

[Duane From RI]

Re: Aid as a way to get around Healing

 

My intent with healing is to allow significant healing In-Combat but at a particular price point. I want to close the loophole with Aid as a way to heal because I don't want to mess with its price. The main function of Aid is to boost powers. Its secondary function if you take the Only to Starting Values limitation is to counteract Drain. I feel Aid is at the right price point for both these.

However, consider this math: 5d6 AID only to starting values will heal 20 STUN if used a couple times in a single round (easy enough to do since you can multiple attack) at a cost of 20 Active Points. Then for every single turn of combat, the AIDer can heal another 5 STUN, assuming the target has taken some damage. Over 5 turns (one minute) that is 40 STUN healed. Take also into consideration the END needed to achieve 40 STUN of healing. The initial 20 STUN would likely require 4 END and each turn would require 1 END for a total of 8 END on the part of the AIDer.

To get even close to these numbers, healing has to be changed from max per day to max per turn. If you do that and continue to follow all other healing rules, 2d6 Healing (also 20 Active Points) would likely heal 45 STUN in 5 turns but at a END cost of 40 END. Here's why - extra Healing rolls in a turn don't have an impact unless they are higher than previous. So let's say you make four Healing rolls in a turn, you are likely to get a 9 at least once. On one turn you may get a 10 and on another turn you may never exceed 8.

If I were making a character I'd rather go the AID route and know how much STUN I'm going to heal and how much END its going to take.

My goal is to promote Healing as the only form of heal so that I can set its price according to the "feel" I'm looking for. Regeneration UOO is specifically forbidden without GM permission so I don't have to worry about that.

My concern is anytime one tinkers with a mechanic, there may be unforseen damage. In this case I want to take away a function of AID and I'm looking for ideas as to what might go wrong with AID if I do that.

[Ndreare]

Re: Aid as a way to get around Healing

 

why not just use the reduced reuse advantage? it would take care of your need as far as i can tell?

[Lucius]

Re: Aid as a way to get around Healing

 

Healing: (Total: 27 Active Cost, 15 Real Cost) +10 REC, Trigger (Activating the Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; +3/4), Usable As Attack (+1), Grantor pays the END whenever the power is used (27 Active Points); Costs Endurance (-1/2), 6 Recoverable Charges (-1/4) (Real Cost: 15)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

the palindromedary buys 1d6 Aid to Citrus

[Ternaugh]

Re: Aid as a way to get around Healing

 

My intent with healing is to allow significant healing In-Combat but at a particular price point. I want to close the loophole with Aid as a way to heal because I don't want to mess with its price. The main function of Aid is to boost powers. Its secondary function if you take the Only to Starting Values limitation is to counteract Drain. I feel Aid is at the right price point for both these.

However, consider this math: 5d6 AID only to starting values will heal 20 STUN if used a couple times in a single round (easy enough to do since you can multiple attack) at a cost of 20 Active Points. Then for every single turn of combat, the AIDer can heal another 5 STUN, assuming the target has taken some damage. Over 5 turns (one minute) that is 40 STUN healed. Take also into consideration the END needed to achieve 40 STUN of healing. The initial 20 STUN would likely require 4 END and each turn would require 1 END for a total of 8 END on the part of the AIDer.

To get even close to these numbers, healing has to be changed from max per day to max per turn. If you do that and continue to follow all other healing rules, 2d6 Healing (also 20 Active Points) would likely heal 45 STUN in 5 turns but at a END cost of 40 END. Here's why - extra Healing rolls in a turn don't have an impact unless they are higher than previous. So let's say you make four Healing rolls in a turn, you are likely to get a 9 at least once. On one turn you may get a 10 and on another turn you may never exceed 8.

If I were making a character I'd rather go the AID route and know how much STUN I'm going to heal and how much END its going to take.

My goal is to promote Healing as the only form of heal so that I can set its price according to the "feel" I'm looking for. Regeneration UOO is specifically forbidden without GM permission so I don't have to worry about that.

My concern is anytime one tinkers with a mechanic, there may be unforseen damage. In this case I want to take away a function of AID and I'm looking for ideas as to what might go wrong with AID if I do that.

 

I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with Aid used this way as the Stun granted this way is limited to the maximum roll on the dice, and will automatically lose 5 CP after each Turn. Heck, it's even listed on 6e p.166. What the character should hope is that their "band-aid" allows a character to slowly build up his real Stun with every Post-Segment 12 Recovery.

 

JoeG

[Ternaugh]

Re: Aid as a way to get around Healing

 

Healing: (Total: 27 Active Cost, 15 Real Cost) +10 REC, Trigger (Activating the Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; +3/4), Usable As Attack (+1), Grantor pays the END whenever the power is used (27 Active Points); Costs Endurance (-1/2), 6 Recoverable Charges (-1/4) (Real Cost: 15)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

the palindromedary buys 1d6 Aid to Citrus

 

There goes the palindromedary, "juicing" the system.

[Christopher]

Re: Aid as a way to get around Healing

 

Healing: (Total: 27 Active Cost, 15 Real Cost) +10 REC, Trigger (Activating the Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; +3/4), Usable As Attack (+1), Grantor pays the END whenever the power is used (27 Active Points); Costs Endurance (-1/2), 6 Recoverable Charges (-1/4) (Real Cost: 15)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

the palindromedary buys 1d6 Aid to Citrus

Unfortunately, you cannot Trigger Rec to get instant recoveries. The APG's say so.

 

But thinking about it:

It might be that that Aid END and Aid STUN already are the better balanced than Heal END and Heal STUN.

 

Let's asume the followign situation:

Let's asume a Character aided by 15 Character points worth of Stun (5d6, standart effect; also the maximum effect of that AID). Then he looses 20 Character Points worth of stun due to attacks (20 STUN). Then Stun fades by 5. Sure, the other guy can aid him again, but all he can give back to him is those 5 points that faded. The other 15 points, those are from his real point.

 

So all you actually have to do, is to say "Aid STUN and Aid END have to use standart effect" and limit the amount the effect they are allowed to have.

The problem is similar to the Barrier: With a simple one value AP limit you can make a barrier that is impervious to any blast and still have points to spare. The trick is not to revalue the defenses, but simply limit how high the defense is allowed to go.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Aid as a way to get around Healing

 

The campaign I'm working on, healers are important and therefore I intend there to be fewer limits on healing - in other words the once per day paradigm is out.

Nonetheless I want to set the cost of healing at a certain point to encourage the use of limitations such as extra time, concentration and so on.

BUT...

Aid has a built in heal feature. If you Aid someone's STUN, when they take STUN damage it comes off the aided portion. When the aided portion fades a little, no further STUN is lost. And with the aided portion faded a touch, you can throw a die or two of Aid that person's way to give them more STUN up to the amount that faded.

 

Setting the price point for Healing will be a task in and of itself. Balancing that costing exercise with the possibility that characters could use Aid to some effect makes the chore too hard.

 

SO...

I want to close the "comes off the aided portion loophole". My thought is that if you Aid someone's STUN and they take STUN damage, it comes out of their base STUN. More importantly when Aid fades, the STUN is actually lost.

 

From a purely mechanical point of view, what is the drawback of closing this loophole? Looking for thoughts.

 

Not sure I consider it a loophole, but let's see...if I'm reading what you suggest right you will not take damage to the 'Aided' stun until you have burnt through all your base STUN. I think that just reduces the value of Aiding STUN for no useful trade off. You can already top up faded STUN. The way it works at the moment you will never fall unconscious when the Aided STUN fades as the Aided STUN goes before the base STUN.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Aid as a way to get around Healing

 

The reason that combat healing is expensive is that healing prolongs combat. That may sound like an obvious point, but Hero combat tends to take some time anyway, and anything that prolongs combat can be a problem, just from the point of game play.

 

Here's a thought thought:

 

Surge of the Conscious Mind 20 active, 16 real

+40 STUN (20 Active Points); Usable By Other (-1/4), Recipient must remain within Line of Sight of Grantor, Grantor can take back power at any time, Grantor can only grant the power to others

What you have there is 40 STUN you can give to someone with a touch that boosts their base STUN (they can use recoveries to increase it), which can be given before or during combat (you could add a limitation 'only up to starting STUN' if you wanted). It is another approach to healing you may not have considered. It is cheaper than the Healing power, but is not 'permanent'.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Aid as a way to get around Healing

 

If you think healing costs too much CP, adjust the cost. This is done in several Fantasy Hero settings where you simply divide the real cost of spells by 3 to make things affordable for the wizard/cleric. If you think using Aid as healing is undesirable in your campaign then don't allow it. I don't think that would cause any game breaking issues. You're the GM, so you have the power to adjust the rules as you see fit.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Aid as a way to get around Healing

 

A lot of people come from DnD where healing is plentyful because healing without magic is slow (well, less so in 4e). In Hero, healing (for STUN) is quick - at least out of combat: you will rarely not be able to get up to max STUN between encounters.

 

Think about limiting Healing to BODY Healing - that, after all, is what takes the time, and keeps the characters alive. Stun healing can probably be done in combat with Aid to keep people on their feet a bit longer. I do not see any need to change the base effect of Aid 'healing' - it seems to work well enough. If you want people unconscious when the STUN fades, buy it with side effects.

[Christopher]

Re: Aid as a way to get around Healing

 

A lot of people come from DnD where healing is plentyful because healing without magic is slow (well' date=' less so in 4e). In Hero, healing (for STUN) is quick - at least out of combat: you will rarely not be able to get up to max STUN between encounters.[/quote']

D&D is a story for itself. In this game healing needs to be plentifull.

This is because of the one major bug: Armor does not reduce damage, it makes you harder to hit.

 

If they would just allow armor to reduce damage (like in 90% of all RPG's I know) they could scrap most of the Cleric Class, the Saving Throws (inlcuding all special feats/class abilities), Damage Reduction and elemental Resistances.