The Big Arguments

[Killer Shrike]

Re: The Big Arguments

 

So in other words, you think Plasticman doesn't have Shape Shift at all. He just has a huge VPP for all the abilities he might whip up with his body. Same for Mr. Fantastic (slightly less versitile VPP). And Beast Boy (with a limitation to reflect "Only in the form of green animals")

 

I find that to be a Rube Goldberg solution to a problem solved much more simply by a Shape Shift power - perhaps not the one defined in 5e - but some Shape Shift power. That was the whole point of this discussion: I said that Shape Shift _should be_ defined in terms of actual shape shifting, not in terms of sensory effect.

I dont know who "Rube Goldberg" is, but as to the benefits of form changing being handled better via a theoretical Shape Shift Power I have a simple answer:

 

Not in the HERO System.

 

In the effects-based HERO System if you want to fly you buy Flight. If you want to stretch a lot you buy a lot of stretching and any other peropheral ability you want "being stretchy" to provide like Damage Reduction. If you want to be an animal guy, you buy the individual abilities that being an animal guy grant. And so on.

 

The justification of why you are able to do these things is just the SFX -- basically a high concept, or a "skin" if you prefer. Where common sense indicates unusual circumstances can be adjudicated based upon SFX, but regardless of SFX the underlying mechanics are what actually matter for purposes of basic resolution.

 

A Power such as your proposed Actual Shape Shift, whose purpose would be to replicate other Powers, is completely unnecessary and counter to the HERO System "Reasoning from Effects" orientation. Either buy the Powers you want to replicate directly or take a VPP set up to mirror your SFX concept.

 

Granted, there are many powers and abilities that need to be purchased separately (or in a VPP or MP), but to use your words, "as the 5e rules define it," Shape Shift is not a Sense Affecting Power.

Its a Power whose only mechanical purpose is to affect how you are perceived. If affecting senses is not de facto "Sense Affecting", then whatever.

[JMHammer]

Re: The Big Arguments

 

Rube Goldberg:

http://www.rube-goldberg.com/

 

Do you remember the board game Mousetrap?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: The Big Arguments

 

Hmm...so Phil seems to think that handling form shifting for the purpose of gaining an open set of Powers that can be changed via a VPP (the existing mechanic to do such a thing), to take existing powers such as Restrainable Flight and HKA to indicate having Wings and Claws, and declaring any sensory signature of such to be handled by simple "Activation of Powers" is hyper-complicated, but instead proposes the design of some uber-power that imitates other Powers in some fashion, only where pertinent to altering ones forms as the way to go?

 

Right.....

[JmOz]

Re: The Big Arguments

 

Oh, and a couple more things I forgot:

 

I don't know whether Shape Shift is priced fairly or not, but it should be based on shapes, not on senses. After all, it's not a sense-affecting power. As it is, it's clumsy to do the most cannonical comic-book shape shifting, a la Plastic Man, where you are molded into the shape of an elephant, but people can still see the red suit and white goggles.

 

And Damage Shield is correctly priced at +1/2. Not +1 1/2, not even +1. I've used it a lot (at the 4th ed. price) and have never had a balance problem with it. Yes, if you start stacking lots of advantages on it, it can become too powerful, but that's true of any power, even without DS. Remember, you are giving up Range, and you have to pay END every phase whether the guy touches you or not. If your opponent has a ranged attack, he never has to touch you. If you have to do a grab to affect someone with your DS, why would you even bother buying it, at any price? Just buy the regular attack, as long as you're going to be using half-phase attack actions.

 

I think the best thing you could do with damage shield is to add a +1 "abusive" advantage to it, similar to how Autofire deals with it. Then a strait EB or RKA version is nothing (ohh and I would not allow either HKA's or HA's)

[Rene]

Re: The Big Arguments

 

A Power such as your proposed Actual Shape Shift' date=' whose purpose would be to replicate other Powers, is completely unnecessary and counter to the HERO System "Reasoning from Effects" orientation. Either buy the Powers you want to replicate directly or take a VPP set up to mirror your SFX concept.[/quote']

 

I'll go further and say that it would be hard to come by with a "real Shape Shift" power that would be much different from a dressed-up VPP. DC Heroes, GURPS 4e, SAS, M&M, all have Shape Shift powers that are nothing more than variations of HERO's VPP: you can assume shapes that mimic powers that cost X, where X can't be higher than your "level" in the Shape Shift power.

[JMcL63]

Re: The Big Arguments

 

What, in your opinion, are the thorniest arguments about HERO under 5th Edition? For 4th Edition this would definitely be the Linked Debate. I know where my opinion lies on these, but I'd be curious to hear some more.

 

No order intended.

 

#1> Strength's Cost // Strength's influence on the figured attributes. The argument here is that Strength costs the same as Energy Blast per d6 of damage -- but that Strength also increases PD, REC, and STUN. *Personally* I feel the solution would be to reduce the influence of Strength on the figured attributes, but many (in my experience, especially those who run a lot of NCM-default campaigns) feel Strength is just plain too cheap to begin with.

A friend of mine has started charging 2pts for STR in a superhero campaign, which makes sense to me. I'd still cost it at 1pt to characters with NCM though I reckon.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: The Big Arguments

 

I'll go further and say that it would be hard to come by with a "real Shape Shift" power that would be much different from a dressed-up VPP. DC Heroes' date=' GURPS 4e, SAS, M&M, all have Shape Shift powers that are nothing more than variations of HERO's VPP: you can assume shapes that mimic powers that cost X, where X can't be higher than your "level" in the Shape Shift power.[/quote']

Exactly.

[GorTeX]

Re: The Big Arguments

 

lemming checked his 2nd ed and it does say 0 END should not be in an EC' date=' he couldn't put his hands on the 1st[/quote']

 

Don't see any restriction in 1st..but EC was definitely different.

 

You paid for the 'reserve' cost then got 3 powers at 1/2 that pool..

 

So, say a 60pt reserve would allow you to have

30pts of flight

30pts of an EB

and 30pts of a force wall.

 

Cost would be 60 pts.

 

if you wanted more then 3 powers, you paid all of reserve/5 pts (so in the above 60pt EC, you could have four 30pt powers for 72 total points.)

 

So, to add a 4th 30pt power, say TK, would make the total cost 72 pts.

 

You could also increase the points in of powers in the EC on a 1for1 basis..so if you wanted 40pts in EB, then the total EC cost was 82 (60+12+10)

[Hyper-Man]

Re: The Big Arguments

 

I dont know who "Rube Goldberg" is, but as to the benefits of form changing being handled better via a theoretical Shape Shift Power I have a simple answer:

 

Not in the HERO System.

 

In the effects-based HERO System if you want to fly you buy Flight. If you want to stretch a lot you buy a lot of stretching and any other peropheral ability you want "being stretchy" to provide like Damage Reduction. If you want to be an animal guy, you buy the individual abilities that being an animal guy grant. And so on.

 

The justification of why you are able to do these things is just the SFX -- basically a high concept, or a "skin" if you prefer. Where common sense indicates unusual circumstances can be adjudicated based upon SFX, but regardless of SFX the underlying mechanics are what actually matter for purposes of basic resolution.

 

A Power such as your proposed Actual Shape Shift, whose purpose would be to replicate other Powers, is completely unnecessary and counter to the HERO System "Reasoning from Effects" orientation. Either buy the Powers you want to replicate directly or take a VPP set up to mirror your SFX concept.

 

Its a Power whose only mechanical purpose is to affect how you are perceived. If affecting senses is not de facto "Sense Affecting", then whatever.

I agree, shapeshift is not even the "only" power that could be used for the "Sense Affecting". please take a look at this post from a few months ago:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=390245&postcount=12

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: The Big Arguments

 

I dont know who "Rube Goldberg" is, but as to the benefits of form changing being handled better via a theoretical Shape Shift Power I have a simple answer:

 

Not in the HERO System.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. I can only think of two things you might mean:

1) Such a power doesn't exist in the HERO System.

2) Such a power shouldn't exist in the HERO System.

 

If you mean #1, then I agree, but then you haven't been paying attention to what I said.

 

I hope you mean #2, even though I disagree.

 

In the effects-based HERO System if you want to fly you buy Flight. If you want to stretch a lot you buy a lot of stretching and any other peropheral ability you want "being stretchy" to provide like Damage Reduction. If you want to be an animal guy, you buy the individual abilities that being an animal guy grant. And so on.

 

"Sometimes a Power receives minor benefits and drawbacks because of its special effects. These minor modifiers don't change the cost of the Power, .... For example, a character with fire powers can help keep his friends warm if they're trapped in a freezer. While the character could buy this (as Life Support...), the effect is so minor that the GM should allow him to do it without paying Character Points for it - it's an 'indirect benefit' of his chosen special effect." -- HERO System 5th Edition, p70

 

There is nothing wrong with getting "indirect benefits" from changing shape. In fact there are many constructs in the HERO System that allow not-fully-defined "powers" to be assumed to go along with them: Transform, Summon, Enhanced Senses, Extra Limbs, Luck, and the Power Skill. You could force players to buy Luck as a complicated VPP with No Conscious Control. You could force players to buy the Power Skill as a VPP for their SFX. etc.

 

A Power such as your proposed Actual Shape Shift, whose purpose would be to replicate other Powers, is completely unnecessary and counter to the HERO System "Reasoning from Effects" orientation. Either buy the Powers you want to replicate directly or take a VPP set up to mirror your SFX concept.

I'm not talking about replicating other powers. I'm talking about exactly what it's called "Shape Shifting." I'm not talking about giving characters HKA's for free just because they want to shape their hands into claws, or free Flight just because they want to shape their arms into wings. Those things should be paid for.

 

If a character buys 100 points of Shrinking, he can become 2 mm tall. If he crawls on his belly or turns sideways, he could easily fit through cracks less than a half-millimeter wide. Would you make him buy Desolid in order to do this? Or is it an "indirect benefit"? I see Shape Shift as providing similar "indirect benefits" based on actually being a different shape, many of which have nothing to do with how others perceive you with their senses.

 

So I want to be able to Shape Shift into a sphere (roughly the same total volume and mass as a 100 kg human = a sphere about 57 cm (23 inches)across). How do I buy this? Well, anyone can see that I'm no longer man-shaped, but am now ball-shaped, so I must buy the Sight group for 10 points. But of course, a blind person could touch me and tell that I'm a ball shape, not a man-shape, so I have to buy the Touch group as well. Now how much would you pay? But wait! Don't answer yet! There's more! Daredevil, with his passive sonar, senses me as a spherical object rather than a man-shaped object. And when I roll along the ground (at my normal running speed - I'm not trying to munchin my way into free movement powers), it sounds different than a man's footsteps. So I need the Hearing group also. Current radar technology can detect objects and details smaller than a man's head. I'm certainly larger than my head, so I need to buy Radio Group as well. Does that count as a Targeting or Non-Targeting group? Well, normally it's Non, but the one sense in this group that can detect my new shape is Targeting. So that's 22 points so far.

 

All of these senses apply regardless of whether I retain my original color, texture, and temperature or not. Do I have to pay more points to appear as a smooth shiny blue plastic ball that's cool to the touch as opposed to a soft, flesh-colored, body-temperature, ball? If I stay fleshy, do I get a limitation? Maybe that's the way to buy Plastic Man: Buy the full Shape Shift, any form for 42 active points and then apply a Limitation: Can't change color, texture, or temperature. Or smell. Uh-oh, if I want to be a blue plastic ball, I'll need to smell like plastic, too, not like human, so I need the Smell/Taste group.

 

Hmmm, Temperature? Doesn't that effect IR Vision? Since I already paid for the Sight group, I should be able to change my heat signature as well. And the configuration of the inside of my body, in case any N-Ray vision guys try to scan me.

 

Do you see why buying Shape Shift by sense groups is so much more complicated that buying it buy shapes? In 4th edition, I'd just say, "Shape Shift: One Form - Cool Blue Plastic Ball. 10 points" (or whatever it was). Much simpler, isn't it?

 

If you disagree with me, then let me ask you this: How *would* you buy Plasticman? Following your logic, I wouldn't buy Shape Shift at all. I'd just buy a VPP and shape shifting would be just a special effect. That's fine, but it seems rather complicated, not to mention odd that a character whose main shtick is "shape shifting" shouldn't buy the power called "Shape Shift."

[Killer Shrike]

Re: The Big Arguments

 

I'm not sure what you're saying here. I can only think of two things you might mean:

1) Such a power doesn't exist in the HERO System.

2) Such a power shouldn't exist in the HERO System.

 

If you mean #1, then I agree, but then you haven't been paying attention to what I said.i

 

I hope you mean #2, even though I disagree.

 

 

Several other people here seem to get that quite clearly. Obviously you differ in your opinion and thats fine. But if you want to pull out the flame-style "I cant possibly be wrong so you obviously arent reading what Im saying...blah blah blah" approach, then very well.

 

 

On the contrary, Ive been paying attention to what you have said. It basically goes like this, by my interpretation of what you are saying:

 

"Im hung up on the idea of a Power that allows me to literally change shape and gain benefits from it directly! The current version of Shape Shift doesnt work like that and I think it should!"

 

And what Im saying is the current version of Shape Shift, while mislabeled to include a possible SFX of the game effect in its title, is a much better way to handle the altered perception profile approach, and that if you want to have acutally game-effective abilities either purchase them directly or take a VPP for them.

 

Thats the way the game is, and your appeal for an "Actual Shape Shift" Power is IMO unnecessary as it is already covered by available Powers and/or Frameworks.

 

 

 

"Sometimes a Power receives minor benefits and drawbacks because of its special effects. These minor modifiers don't change the cost of the Power, .... For example, a character with fire powers can help keep his friends warm if they're trapped in a freezer. While the character could buy this (as Life Support...), the effect is so minor that the GM should allow him to do it without paying Character Points for it - it's an 'indirect benefit' of his chosen special effect." -- HERO System 5th Edition, p70

 

 

And I dont disagree -- when common sense indicates SFX are taken into consideration, as I said. However as the quote you note indicates these side benefits should be "minor" and "indirect"

 

In the case of a Shape Shift with the SFX of "I change my form" gaining the ability to imitate other powers is not minor or indirect -- it's major and direct and therefore not intended to be handled via SFX. Those are seperate Powers and you need to purchase them either directly or via a VPP to use them. You can change shape into a dog, but if you want tracking scent and better running you have to buy them. And using the same exact "Shape Shift" Power another character could just make other people THINK he looks like a dog without actually changing their shape in the slightest.

 

Thats the point. Form Change is a justification for Powers, a SFX in HERO Terms, but it is not an individual and distinct Power.

 

There is nothing wrong with getting "indirect benefits" from changing shape. In fact there are many constructs in the HERO System that allow not-fully-defined "powers" to be assumed to go along with them: Transform, Summon, Enhanced Senses, Extra Limbs, Luck, and the Power Skill.

What are you talking about?

 

 

You could force players to buy Luck as a complicated VPP with No Conscious Control. You could force players to buy the Power Skill as a VPP for their SFX. etc.

This has no relevence to the topic at hand, so Im not sure why you are departing on this particular tangent, but:

 

By default characters need a Skill of some sort for their VPP's if they want to change their allocation in combat unless they apply a costly advantage "No Skill Roll Required".

 

As far as Luck, if the player wanted to be able to pull off effects beyond what is possible via the Power called "Luck", then yes they would need to define exactly what Effects their SFX of "Luck Powers" entailed and then buy the Powers appropriate to model those Effects (or handle it via a VPP). The "Luck" Power is a specific game Effect. If you want your "Luck" SFX to do more/something different than that specific game Effect you build those Effects with other Powers. Thats what reasoning from Effects means.

I'm not talking about replicating other powers. I'm talking about exactly what it's called "Shape Shifting." I'm not talking about giving characters HKA's for free just because they want to shape their hands into claws, or free Flight just because they want to shape their arms into wings. Those things should be paid for.

 

If a character buys 100 points of Shrinking, he can become 2 mm tall. If he crawls on his belly or turns sideways, he could easily fit through cracks less than a half-millimeter wide. Would you make him buy Desolid in order to do this? Or is it an "indirect benefit"? I see Shape Shift as providing similar "indirect benefits" based on actually being a different shape, many of which have nothing to do with how others perceive you with their senses.

No, thats not an "indirect benefit" of Shrinking -- it's the primary benefit -- you get really small, with all that entails including fitting thru cracks and gaps you are physically small enough to fit thru. Thats not even a matter of SFX -- thats part of the Game Effect of the Power itself.

 

So I want to be able to Shape Shift into a sphere (roughly the same total volume and mass as a 100 kg human = a sphere about 57 cm (23 inches)across). How do I buy this? Well, anyone can see that I'm no longer man-shaped, but am now ball-shaped, so I must buy the Sight group for 10 points. But of course, a blind person could touch me and tell that I'm a ball shape, not a man-shape, so I have to buy the Touch group as well. Now how much would you pay? But wait! Don't answer yet! There's more! Daredevil, with his passive sonar, senses me as a spherical object rather than a man-shaped object. And when I roll along the ground (at my normal running speed - I'm not trying to munchin my way into free movement powers), it sounds different than a man's footsteps. So I need the Hearing group also. Current radar technology can detect objects and details smaller than a man's head. I'm certainly larger than my head, so I need to buy Radio Group as well. Does that count as a Targeting or Non-Targeting group? Well, normally it's Non, but the one sense in this group that can detect my new shape is Targeting. So that's 22 points so far.

And?

 

Also, why dont you just build it as multiform instead and make your "Big Ball" form actually do something useful rather than just make people perceive you as a big round ball man? If you want to get big and roll around and maybe squash things then make your Ball Form and give it extra running (maybe w/ a turn mode, or not as you prefer), and some DEF or Reduction (or both), maybe a hand attack or levels with Move Thru (or a custom FMove based Martial Arts Sytle "Roll Fu" with Charge, Sacrifice Lunge, Flying Dodge, etc), and take "Big Round Ball" as a Phys Lim, suffering the appropriate PER mods and DCV pen for larger than normal size.

 

Problem solved. Not only did you actuall change into another Form, but that form does something, and the mechanic will also allow you to have ADDITIONAL forms so you can also change into an elephant shaped/sized man or whatever other oddness your heart desires.

 

All of these senses apply regardless of whether I retain my original color, texture, and temperature or not. Do I have to pay more points to appear as a smooth shiny blue plastic ball that's cool to the touch as opposed to a soft, flesh-colored, body-temperature, ball? If I stay fleshy, do I get a limitation? Maybe that's the way to buy Plastic Man: Buy the full Shape Shift, any form for 42 active points and then apply a Limitation: Can't change color, texture, or temperature. Or smell. Uh-oh, if I want to be a blue plastic ball, I'll need to smell like plastic, too, not like human, so I need the Smell/Taste group.

 

Hmmm, Temperature? Doesn't that effect IR Vision? Since I already paid for the Sight group, I should be able to change my heat signature as well. And the configuration of the inside of my body, in case any N-Ray vision guys try to scan me.

 

Do you see why buying Shape Shift by sense groups is so much more complicated that buying it buy shapes? In 4th edition, I'd just say, "Shape Shift: One Form - Cool Blue Plastic Ball. 10 points" (or whatever it was). Much simpler, isn't it?

And pointless too. What did it actually do for you? How did it interact with other Powers? What if someone else paid gobs o' points for "Supersense Guy"? Your cheap little non-defined "Shape Shift" did what to that?

 

If you disagree with me, then let me ask you this: How *would* you buy Plasticman? Following your logic, I wouldn't buy Shape Shift at all. I'd just buy a VPP and shape shifting would be just a special effect. That's fine, but it seems rather complicated, not to mention odd that a character whose main shtick is "shape shifting" shouldn't buy the power called "Shape Shift."

 

Ill not disagree that the Power is mislabeled. Several Powers are, in a throwback to older versions of the rules. Like Luck, to note your own example. Luck is a SFX that covers a lot of possible implementations of the different Powers; the "Luck" Power should be renamed to something mechanics based, like Probability Alteration.

 

Same with Force Field and Force Wall -- I might have a barrier with certain game effects, but FORCE is a specific SFX. My "Force Field" might be Fire based, or Psionic, or Mystic. Conversely I might have a character based around "Force" effects and not take FF or FW at all -- I might model the character with Damage Reduction, Missile Reflection, and Entangles for example.

 

Energy Blasts can be vs Physical Defense.....so the Power is really just a "Blast" Power then, isnt it? If I make an Energy Blaster, do I have to take Energy Blast? No. I could build their effects in several ways not involving EB at all.

 

Darkness isnt necessarily Dark, nor is it necessarily vs Sight. Same thing with Flash.

 

EGO Blast doesnt really affect EGO, it's just BOECV and vs Mental Defense. If i wanted to make a character that was an "Egomaniacal villain possessed of tremendous willpower!" would I de facto buy EGO Blast for them because the name happens to be similar? Maybe, maybe not.

 

Armor isnt necessarily literal Armor -- it's just rDef. If I wanted to make "Armorguy!" would I have to do it with the Armor Power?

 

Entangles dont just entangle, they can also make walls. If I made a "Tripster; the Trippy Hippy", a psychedelia based character that primarily impedes the actions and movement of others would I have to use Entangles to do it? No. I could build that SFX with half a dozen different powers or more. If I made "Blockade", a character base around making walls, would I build him with Force Wall because, well, he makes Walls? Maybe, but I might prefer to build him on Entangles instead, or even Transform or possibly even an odd build of TK; or maybe even a weird AoE Mental Illusions -- perhaps people just THINK the walls are there.

 

Do I have to make Hand Attacks with my literal Hands? Same w/ HKA's. No.

 

Does my "Ranged Killing Attack" literally have to be Ranged? No.

 

If I take Stretching do I literally HAVE to physically Stretched? No.

 

If I take Flight do I literally have to fly thru the air? No.

 

And so on. A lot of the Powers are mislabeled or misleading or allow for non-intuitive uses, or all of the above.

 

And the same thing with "Shape Shifters". The real question isnt what their justification of Powers are, the question is what does it allow them to do -- what is the game Effect.

 

Im not familiar with Plastic Man specifically, so I dont know the full range of what the character can do, but from some of the things you seem to want him to do I would probably build him with either a "Shape Shift" VPP or a Multiform -- maybe both depending on how sophisticated the character was and how complex the effects his particular version of "shape shifting" SFX justified.

 

If part of his general "Shape Shift" SFX also allowed him to just appear to be different shapes without any other abilities if he felt like it, then his "Shape Shift VPP" would certainly cover him taking a build of the actual Shape Shift Power in it if he felt like it.

 

Basically heres the point with the "Shape Shift" Power -- it's purpose is DECEPTION. If your Plastic Man build derived some benefit from deceiving others then the current "Shape Shift" Power is a good way to do that. However if his "Shape Shifting" SFX is really more aimed at altering his form to gain tactical/combat or other non-deceptory benefits then the current version of the "Shape Shift" Power is not useful for that.

 

The main point is that "Changing One's Shape" is just a SFX for various Powers which may or may not include "Shape Shift" as appropriate.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: The Big Arguments

 

Several other people here seem to get that quite clearly. Obviously you differ in your opinion and thats fine. But if you want to pull out the flame-style "I cant possibly be wrong so you obviously arent reading what Im saying...blah blah blah" approach' date=' then very well.[/quote']

I am not flaming you. I simply didn't understand what you were saying. There's no need for hostility. As to what other people get, I'm not the only one who prefers the 4th ed style Shape-Shift. There's another current thread which I haven't even written to where several people seem to be saying the same thing.

 

On the contrary, Ive been paying attention to what you have said. It basically goes like this, by my interpretation of what you are saying:

 

"Im hung up on the idea of a Power that allows me to literally change shape and gain benefits from it directly! The current version of Shape Shift doesnt work like that and I think it should!"

Your insults do not help the conversation. I'm not sure what the problem is, but for some reason, you aren't understanding me, or I am not understanding you, or both.

 

And what Im saying is the current version of Shape Shift, while mislabeled to include a possible SFX of the game effect in its title, is a much better way to handle the altered perception profile approach, and that if you want to have acutally game-effective abilities either purchase them directly or take a VPP for them.

This may be the crux of the issue: We agree that the structure of the power does not match its label, but you believe the label should be changed and I believe the structure should be changed.

 

Thats the way the game is, and your appeal for an "Actual Shape Shift" Power is IMO unnecessary as it is already covered by available Powers and/or Frameworks.

This is what makes me so frustrated and suspect that you aren't reading me. The whole subject of this thread isn't to describe how the game is, but how we think it should be. When you keep saying "That's the way the game is," I feel like I'm talking to an Entangle Barrier.

 

And BTW, there are plenty of powers than are "already covered by available Powers and/or Frameworks," so why is Shape Shifting such a problem?

 

In the case of a Shape Shift with the SFX of "I change my form" gaining the ability to imitate other powers is not minor or indirect -- it's major and direct and therefore not intended to be handled via SFX.

That depends on what those powers are. I'll say this again (what are we up to now, the third time?): changing your hands into 4d6 HKA claws is definitely a major effect and I would never allow it for "free" just because someone can Shape Shift. Likewise for flying and various enhanced senses. But suppose I want to Shape Shift into a ladder that my teammates could climb up. Would you let me do that with Shape Shift? Or would you make me buy Climbing, UBO? As a GM, I don't have a problem with someone who spent 42 points on Shape Shift gaining the benefit of something that would have cost about 5 points.

 

Thats the point. Form Change is a justification for Powers, a SFX in HERO Terms, but it is not an individual and distinct Power.

I suppose that's one way of looking at it, but you could also say that the ability to change forms *is* a power - one with multiple miscellaneous applications depending on how much flexibility with the power was purchased. And the possible use of the Power Skill.

 

What are you talking about?

I am simply giving other examples of cases where Power A can provide benefits that could have been built using Power B. I don't know why the analogy was so hard to follow. I thought the Luck example was quite obvious. If you want an overly complex "Rube Goldberg" way to build Luck, you could do it with a VPP: a small pool of powers to reflect various lucky things that might happen, all with the Limitation: No Conscious Control. Or you could do it the simple way, and just say "Xd6 Luck." Likewise, you can make a VPP of powers that you might get from having an altered shape, or you can just say "Shape Shift X points."

 

As to the Shrinking example, it was another case where you gain a benifit that could be bought through another power, in this case Desolid. You don't seem to have a problem with that, but you do when it comes to Shape Shift.

 

And the Ball Man example was to show how an extremely simple shape change most be bought as a much more complex power if you're forced to buy it by individual sense groups rather than by shape.

 

Ill not disagree that the Power is mislabeled. Several Powers are, in a throwback to older versions of the rules.

I don't even care so much what the power (or any power) is called. I just want it to do what it needs to as simply as possible.

 

Basically heres the point with the "Shape Shift" Power -- it's purpose is DECEPTION.

That is not my interpretation. Images is for deception, Disguise is for deception, Shape Shift with the Imitation adder can be used for deception. But Shape Shift is for shape shifting - as stated in the first paragraph in the power description.

 

The main point is that "Changing One's Shape" is just a SFX for various Powers which may or may not include "Shape Shift" as appropriate.

And you could just as easily say that "Growth" is just a SFX for various Powers which may or may not include "Growth" as appropriate. Same with Density Increase, Shrinking, Transform, Summon, Extra Limbs, Luck.

 

Yes. If you want, you can make a shape changing character with other powers to reflect all the things the different shapes can do. However, I think it is useful to the game to have a single, simple power that can represent a lot of those miscellaneous abilities.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: The Big Arguments

 

I am not flaming you. I simply didn't understand what you were saying. There's no need for hostility. As to what other people get' date=' I'm not the only one who prefers the 4th ed style Shape-Shift. There's another current thread which I haven't even written to where several people seem to be saying the same thing.[/quote']

And? This thread isnt about 4e. Its about 5e.

 

Your insults do not help the conversation. I'm not sure what the problem is, but for some reason, you aren't understanding me, or I am not understanding you, or both.

How am I insulting you? I posted what I think your position is. There was nothing insulting about it.

 

This may be the crux of the issue: We agree that the structure of the power does not match its label, but you believe the label should be changed and I believe the structure should be changed.

Yes, I believe that the structure in its current incarnation is a much better way of tracking altering one's own appearance in the Effects based HERO System. It interacts with existing rules for perception much better and allows many different implementation via many different SFX.

 

Yes, I think that it's label should be altered to remove references to a single SFX that would justify such a Power, or better yet to combine the several redundant powers whose purposes are all to affect Perception (as I posted in detail above).

 

This is what makes me so frustrated and suspect that you aren't reading me. The whole subject of this thread isn't to describe how the game is, but how we think it should be. When you keep saying "That's the way the game is," I feel like I'm talking to an Entangle Barrier.

The subject of the thread is "The Big Arguments".

 

You have your position about "Shape Shift" the Power, and I have my position. They are not aligned. Thus we argue. Seems pretty on-topic to me.

 

And BTW, there are plenty of powers than are "already covered by available Powers and/or Frameworks," so why is Shape Shifting such a problem?

And I am generally for coallescing all redundant Powers into more powerful/flexible/comprehensive base Powers.

 

Further, Im not the one indicating that Shape Shift is a problem. Im indicating that I like it the way it is in 5e (save that I would go a step further and combine it with Images/Invisibility/Darkness were I to write 6e).

 

You are the one who is indicating that Shape Shift in its current iteration is a problem.

 

That depends on what those powers are. I'll say this again (what are we up to now, the third time?): changing your hands into 4d6 HKA claws is definitely a major effect and I would never allow it for "free" just because someone can Shape Shift. Likewise for flying and various enhanced senses. But suppose I want to Shape Shift into a ladder that my teammates could climb up. Would you let me do that with Shape Shift? Or would you make me buy Climbing, UBO? As a GM, I don't have a problem with someone who spent 42 points on Shape Shift gaining the benefit of something that would have cost about 5 points.

Cost 5 points in what system? Giving movement to teammates is worth 5 points in your version of the rules?

 

How about if my character changes himself into a Hang Glider under your system? "Hang on guys! Free movement!". Or "Shape Shifts" themselves into a rope? "Free Swinging/Climbing/Entangle Guys!"? Or "Shape Shifts" themselves into a club? "Somebody swing me! Free Hand Attack!"

 

Where do you draw the line? I draw the line at the very begining -- if the effect you want imitates an existing power, then buy that power instead and the "shape shifting" aspect of it is handled via Activation of Powers. That is an Effects-driven way to implement such Powers. The HERO System is an Effects based system. See the connection?

 

I think the point that your just not getting is that unless a characters shape has some GAME EFFECT, then their shape does not matter. You seem to want to buy Shape Shift in some literal-minded need to make characters pay for an odd form, but they dont have to pay anything for it UNLESS IT DOES SOMETHING FOR THEM.

 

In the case of Shape Shift, the purpose of the Power is to alter the character's perception profile. This is only useful if you are attempting to deceive the perceptions of others. If such is not your intent then it's not the right Power to take. In other words, if you just want to alter your form while still being recognizable as yourself then you don't need "Shape Shift" the Power. Plain and simple.

 

For example, would you require a character that can grow claws to take Shape Shift in addition to their HKA to cover the alteration of their form when they "pop" their claws? Of course not, that's covered by Activation of Powers/SFX. Now if the character wants to sometimes pop claws and other times pop a sword out of thin air or something, that's Variable SFX.

 

Same thing with your "Big Ball Man" idea -- what does the ability do? It lets him roll around. So if you dont want to go the VPP or Multiform route, you can do something like a Multipower or even an EC, or just buy the Powers straight to model the effect. You can define the SFX of your extra Running as Variable SFX: "Turns into a Giant Ball Shape or Grows Stretchy Legs or Becomes a Quadraped".

 

You could even just go the route of taking "Only In HERO ID" On all the character's Powers, and just saying that his "HERO ID" consists of being in some way form altered -- thus the character can only use any of his Powers by deforming their body in some way. That's a high-pass way to do it.

 

Simple as that. There are many different ways of modeling that kind of effect and none of them require Shape Shift in anyway.

 

I suppose that's one way of looking at it, but you could also say that the ability to change forms *is* a power - one with multiple miscellaneous applications depending on how much flexibility with the power was purchased. And the possible use of the Power Skill.

It's only a Power when it gives the character a useful ability that is not normally available by default. And in the Effects based HERO System, any benefit which is already covered by another Power should not be imitated by it's use. THus the current "Shape Shift". It covers the portion of altering ones form that is not already covered by some combination of other Powers, and that is the change-forms-to-deceive function.

 

I am simply giving other examples of cases where Power A can provide benefits that could have been built using Power B. I don't know why the analogy was so hard to follow. I thought the Luck example was quite obvious. If you want an overly complex "Rube Goldberg" way to build Luck, you could do it with a VPP: a small pool of powers to reflect various lucky things that might happen, all with the Limitation: No Conscious Control. Or you could do it the simple way, and just say "Xd6 Luck." Likewise, you can make a VPP of powers that you might get from having an altered shape, or you can just say "Shape Shift X points."

No, you are wrong. The "Luck" Power has a specific game Effect. When you buy levels of Luck you are buying the ability to use that specific game Effect; either the default or one of the variants as pre-agreed upon with the GM.

 

If you want your "Luck" SFX to cover the ability to do ANYTHING ELSE, then you purchase the desired Game Effects using other Powers, and declare their SFX to be "LUCK".

 

Thats how the game works. Do you really not understand "Reasoning from Effects?"

 

As to the Shrinking example, it was another case where you gain a benifit that could be bought through another power, in this case Desolid. You don't seem to have a problem with that, but you do when it comes to Shape Shift.

What kind of broken logic is that? By that logic a normal sized person would need to buy Desolid to walk thru an open door. Completely illogical.

 

Shrinking makes you literally smaller. You can fit thru any opening your reduced size makes appropriate as part of being really small.

 

 

Desolid is not meant to slip thru cracks by default; Desolid is to literally become NOT SOLID. One benefit of this is to move thru matter because you are not solid. A shrunk character going thru gaps IS NOT MOVING THRU MATTER -- they are moving thru empty air that they are small enough to fit thru due to being physically tiny.

 

There is a Limited Form of Desolid that only allows characters to slip thru cracks THAT THEY NORMALLY WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO FIT THRU. This is useful for mice, snakes, and oozes for example that are able to squeeze their overall-to-large mass thru tight spaces due to a deformable topography. However, it should be pretty obvious that this is only necessary for them to move thru such gaps that are SMALLER THAN THEY ARE.

 

 

 

And the Ball Man example was to show how an extremely simple shape change most be bought as a much more complex power if you're forced to buy it by individual sense groups rather than by shape.

And you still seem to not grasp that if the Ball form doesnt do anything for you, then there is no real reason to pay points for it.

 

In the HERO System you spend Points to get Effects. If you just want to blow up like a human baloon, if such an ability doesnt have any benefit then what is the point? Id probably build such a "Power" that did absolutely nothing useful as either a PhysLim or an Accidental Change because its really more of a hindrance than a help.

 

Its only worth points if it does something.

 

For example, how much for Pinocchio's Nose thing? It seems like you'd want to build it as a Shape Shift, along the same logic of your "Pointless Ball Man!" example. Me, Id call that a Disadvantage unless Pinocchio derived some consistently useful benefit from it.

 

Otherwise, buy the actual Effect that the "Inflatable Beach Ball Man" ability gives you and declare the shape change as part of it's SFX, or Multiform into a different form with whatever abilities the "Magic 8-Ball Man Effect" grants.

 

I don't even care so much what the power (or any power) is called. I just want it to do what it needs to as simply as possible.

 

 

That is not my interpretation. Images is for deception, Disguise is for deception, Shape Shift with the Imitation adder can be used for deception. But Shape Shift is for shape shifting - as stated in the first paragraph in the power description.

 

Shape Shift with the Imitation adder allows you to make people think you are a SPECIFIC other thing. So without it you can look like A dog, but with it you can look like THAT dog.

 

Either form is still a type of deception.

 

 

 

And you could just as easily say that "Growth" is just a SFX for various Powers which may or may not include "Growth" as appropriate. Same with Density Increase, Shrinking, Transform, Summon, Extra Limbs, Luck.

 

Yes you could, and can, and do. However, the "Growth" Power is the only Power that allows you to increase your Size. Shrinking is the only Power that allows you to decrease your Size. Density Increase is the only Power that allows you to increase just your Density. Transform is the only Power that allows you to alter things other than environmental effects directly. Summon is the only Power that allows you to bring some other character writeup into play directly, Extra Limbs is the only Power that lets you have more than the normal number of Limbs that actually do something, Luck is the only "wild card" type Power, or if using some of the variants, the only way to affect the meta-game.

 

Each of these powers has a clear cut mechanic with a distinct and measurable game Effect. However "Shape Shifting" as a SFX has two natures -- to deceive and to provide a justification for OTHER POWERS. In the HERO System the 1st nature is a game Effect not directly covered by any other existing Power currently (though it could be indirectly coverable via a limited Images), and thus the current version of Shape Shift. The 2nd nature falls into SFX land -- and the appropriate course of action is to reason from Effect just like with any other ability.

 

Yes. If you want, you can make a shape changing character with other powers to reflect all the things the different shapes can do. However, I think it is useful to the game to have a single, simple power that can represent a lot of those miscellaneous abilities.

And I totally disagree. That is completely counter to the Reason from Effect mentality of the HERO System. There should be fewer base Powers that are each designed to be flexible & generic, not more base Powers designed to be limited and specific.

 

If you want a specific little Power for every unusual thing then play some other Superhero RPG. They all have balance issues for a simple reason -- the more specific niche Powers you have the harder it is to balance them against each other. The HERO System does a very good job of balancing the overall effect of vanilla Powers when looked at in the bigger picture, and a part of this balancing is possible because the Powers are generally non-specific. Lowest Common Denominator allows for a greater number of combinable abilities and tailored constructs.

 

The DRY Principle (Don't Repeat Yourself) is a powerful means to avoid anomalies and the HERO System does an OK job of implementing it. I'd like to see 6e go further, coallescing redundancies where possible. In this particular case, making a Shape Shift Power in the future that basically duplicates the functionality of a limited VPP is a mistake IMO.

[Rene]

Re: The Big Arguments

 

I basically agree with Killer Shrike. I only wanted to add that, if you have a Power Skill for shapeshifting, the benefit derived is small and not repeatedly used, and it's under 30% of the point cost of your Shape Shift, then the system already provides a semi-official way for doing it.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: The Big Arguments

 

I'm with Killer Shrike. Aspects or applications of a shape-changing ability that don't actually let the character *do* anything valuable shouldn't cost any points; those applications that do let him do something valuable should be bought as separate Powers.

 

If you feel you must charge the character something for what are, in practice, trivial applications of shape-changing, have them buy Skill Levels with Concealment, Contortionist, and Disguise. That should provide an effects-based way to get across the idea that the character can change his form somewhat.

 

EDIT: Another example: 4 RSL with Self, Usable by Other. The character can shape himself into a balanced, aerodynamic object.

[schir1964]

Re: The Big Arguments

 

Killershrike is correct in his view of the design intent for Shape Shift. I've emailed Steve Long when the 5th Edition came out asking for some clarification on the intent of Shape Shift. If you email him directly, I'm sure you'll find that Killershrike is correct on how the power is supposed to work.

 

Killershrike, your posts do come across as condescending, although I'm sure that was not your intent. Not sure what advise I could give you to help you keep that from happening.

 

Phil, to try to help clarify how Shape Shift was intended to work I'll use a concrete example.

 

You could use Shape Shift to Look, Feel, Sound, Taste, Smell, and for all intents "Appear" to be a wooden chair.

 

Anyone who saw you would see a wooden chair.

They could tap your legs and they would sound like and feel like wood.

The could smell the wood smell that you would have.

 

However, they could not sit in the chair like a normal wooden chair. Why?

Because you are not a chair. Your body is not made of actual wood, you don't have the density, nor the tensile strength of wood. The configuration of your flesh and blood body has changed to match the volume shape of the chair. The surface of you body has changed to appear to be same as a wooden chair, but inside you're still the same flesh and blood person you started out as.

 

Someone sitting on you would know that they were not sitting in a wooden chair, even if you were strong enough to hold them. Why?

Because you don't act like a wooden chair that's being sat on.

 

That's not to say they would know that the wooden chair was a Shape Shifter, but simply that there's something wrong with the wooden chair.

 

Not sure if this helps you understand what Steve Long had in mind, but the power does work the way it was intended.

 

Just My Humble Opinion

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Killer Shrike]

Re: The Big Arguments

 

Killershrike, your posts do come across as condescending, although I'm sure that was not your intent. Not sure what advise I could give you to help you keep that from happening.

Christopher Mullins

Not my intent.

[Kristopher]

Re: The Big Arguments

 

Killershrike is correct in his view of the design intent for

You could use Shape Shift to Look, Feel, Sound, Taste, Smell, and for all intents "Appear" to be a wooden chair.

 

Anyone who saw you would see a wooden chair.

They could tap your legs and they would sound like and feel like wood.

The could smell the wood smell that you would have.

 

However, they could not sit in the chair like a normal wooden chair. Why?

Because you are not a chair. Your body is not made of actual wood, you don't have the density, nor the tensile strength of wood. The configuration of your flesh and blood body has changed to match the volume shape of the chair. The surface of you body has changed to appear to be same as a wooden chair, but inside you're still the same flesh and blood person you started out as.

 

Someone sitting on you would know that they were not sitting in a wooden chair, even if you were strong enough to hold them. Why?

Because you don't act like a wooden chair that's being sat on.

 

That's not to say they would know that the wooden chair was a Shape Shifter, but simply that there's something wrong with the wooden chair.

 

If the character can't even become a convincing wooden chair after spending 70 points to get the maximum effect and cost out of Shape Shift, there's a serious problem here.

 

Exactly what power(s) would allow a character to fool someone who sat on him in "chair form"?

[schir1964]

Re: The Big Arguments

 

If the character can't even become a convincing wooden chair after spending 70 points to get the maximum effect and cost out of Shape Shift, there's a serious problem here.

 

Exactly what power(s) would allow a character to fool someone who sat on him in "chair form"?

Well, you pointed out a very important distinction of how each person gets a different idea of how this power should work. And that's the real problem with this power.

 

Now to address a couple of viewpoints you've highlighted here.

For seventy points the character did become a convinicing wooden chair, in my opinion. It appears to be a chair in every "sense".

However, it does not function as an actual chair. Why?

Because it is not an actual chair, it's a sentient character that has a will, can avoid attacks, be hurt, and even killed. Most chairs I know don't have those characteristics. (8^D)

 

Now if character wanted to become an actual chair, they could use Multiform, but once changed they would no longer be a character and wouldn't be able to change back since they wouldn't have thoughts anymore. However, one could riq a Multiform in advance to change under specific conditions using Trigger so that one could become an actual object and revert sometime later to thier normal self. Hmmmm... interesting... (8^D)

 

BTW: I understand your frustration with this. Perhaps you can convince Steve Long to change this for future editions.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Killer Shrike]

Re: The Big Arguments

 

I disagree with your chair example shir. The person would appear to be a chair to every sense their Shape Shift applied to, including touch. Unless the person sitting upon the "Im a Chair!" Guy had some additional sense not covered by the Shape Shift they would perceive Chair Guy to be a Chair unless Chair Guy did something untoward to indicate that he wasnt, like Shape Shifting into a different form, using some other visible Power, talking, or the like.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: The Big Arguments

 

 

However, they could not sit in the chair like a normal wooden chair.

 

Hmmm. Seems to me we're entering SFX territory there. The ability to be sat on like a chair is not worth any points. If the SFX of the character's Shape Shift is "I turn into an actual chair," and he's bought all the relevant Sense Groups, I'd let people sit on him without incident or suspicion.

[Vondy]

Re: The Big Arguments

 

Hmmm. Seems to me we're entering SFX territory there. The ability to be sat on like a chair is not worth any points. If the SFX of the character's Shape Shift is "I turn into an actual chair' date='" and he's bought all the relevant Sense Groups, I'd let people sit on him without incident or suspicion.[/quote']

 

I concur completely.

[Katherine]

Re: The Big Arguments

 

All right I'm a bit confused. What good is shapeshift aside from looking like someone else?

 

If I took Shapeshift vs all Sense groups to change into a wooden chair (with Cellular and Imitation, just in case), but if someone sat in me they'd know it wasn't really a wooden chair, right? What powers would I have to buy to actually become a wooden chair?

 

If I used my shapeshift to become a ladder, I couldn't let my friend climb me without buying Climbing UBO or something similar? What about becoming a large bucket/bowl and being used by a strong teamate to scoop water to douse a fire or something? Could I Shapeshift into odd but useful shapes without buying an odd power construct to fit what I'm trying to do?

[schir1964]

Re: The Big Arguments

 

It seems to me I still haven't been clear enough on one thing here.

 

As I said before, I would consider the wood chair to convincing. The person sitting in it might realize that the wooden chair doesn't sit right, especially if they sat in wood chairs before.

 

Does this nullify the effect of the shape shift? Not in my game.

 

Now what I didn't include in my example were the Cellular or Imitation modifiers. They could have drastic influence on this depending on what they actually do.

 

I also didn't bother to talk about the whole volume effect. Changing shape doesn't allow you change volume. The wooden chair would be huge or thick in order to maintain your body's mass ratio. This in itself implies some benefits that are granted but not alluded explicity in the power. The ladder is a perfect example, the ladder would be tall one to maiintain the mass ratio, and as long as the character was was strong enough, he could serve as ladder. Actually a person can serve as a ladder, stool, and many other items without ever changing shape. If they function adequately like this, there's no reason they couldn't when they change shape.

 

Well, I can't think of anything else constructive to add, so I'm through.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[zornwil]

Re: The Big Arguments

 

All right I'm a bit confused. What good is shapeshift aside from looking like someone else?

 

If I took Shapeshift vs all Sense groups to change into a wooden chair (with Cellular and Imitation, just in case), but if someone sat in me they'd know it wasn't really a wooden chair, right? What powers would I have to buy to actually become a wooden chair?

 

If I used my shapeshift to become a ladder, I couldn't let my friend climb me without buying Climbing UBO or something similar? What about becoming a large bucket/bowl and being used by a strong teamate to scoop water to douse a fire or something? Could I Shapeshift into odd but useful shapes without buying an odd power construct to fit what I'm trying to do?

If you have shape shift vs touch, you should feel just like a wooden chair. If you have shape shift vs smell, you should smell just like a wooden chair. Of course, assuming you have a decent knowledge of how these things feel and smell. And so on, in terms of senses. Any weakness you'd have in "being" a chair would come more from whatever area you might not be covered in senses or whatever lack of knowledge you might have in chairs relative the person sitting or possibly any SFX/intangibles that are just character-related (e.g., being fidgety means you'd shift a bit at some point, or being a creature that forms shapes due to being watery, for example, might mean you can't hold rigid wood-like forms for very long). That's how I look at it.

 

Under 4th, I did much the same, I just always assumed you had some weakness in your shape shift ability but could fool most or all senses, depending a lot.