The Big Arguments

[zornwil]

Re: Variable Effect

 

Originally posted by mightybruce

I found out the potential abuse of the Variable Effect recently. Think about it. For a +1 Advantage (which doubles the cost), a character can have an Aid that effects 4 different powers at once. That's 4 Aids for the price of two. Seems a bit much

 

I'm not sure it's any more abusive than a VPP could be.

[mightybruce]

Variable Effect

 

I'm not sure it's any more abusive than a VPP could be.

 

That could be true. But it seems Variable Effect lets you get 2, 4, or many powers for the price of one.

[Pattern Ghost]

re: Shapeshift. I forgot about that one. I don't really like the new breakdown. By breaking it down into sense groups, it seems too much to step on the toes of Images. If I want, for instance, to make a holographic disguise or illusionary disguise spell, for instance, do I buy Images or Shapeshift vs. Sight group? Too redundant.

 

re: Increased Stun Multiple at +1/4. I totally missed that one too. I looked it up, and it does say that after the first level you have to get GM's permission. (Which goes for pretty much everything anyway.) Seems to be an acknowledgement that it may be too cheap after that first level. BUT, there is one thing I like about it: You can buy that first level just for the sake of convenience in reading your STUN die. I personally hate rolling half dice and minus dice. A big handful of dice, no problem. But the others annoy me. (Unless you have some d3 marked dice for that half dice thing.) I think in the future, I'll go with +1/4 for the first level and +1/2 for additional levels. (Which would coincidentally match Gary's assement. Knowing he probably has a spreadsheet with the math done to back that up, I'll guess that's a good thing. =)

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: Variable Effect

 

Originally posted by mightybruce

I found out the potential abuse of the Variable Effect recently. Think about it. For a +1 Advantage (which doubles the cost), a character can have an Aid that effects 4 different powers at once. That's 4 Aids for the price of two. Seems a bit much

 

Actually, I don't see this as a significant problem. The potential advantages are balanced by the potential risk. Keep in mind, this Advantage doesn't allow one to affect just any four random Powers at once - rather, it simultaneously affects four Powers or Characteristics of a given special effect. That is an advantage for you if you use Absorbtion or Aid to boost four of your light-based Powers (say, EB, Force Field, Flash and Desolid) all at once, but it's a risk if you run into Captain Light-Drain, who is able to hit all four of those at once. Having a coherent, unifying character theme has lots of advantages (reflected in the relatively high power at low price provided by Mulipowers, ECs and VPPs), but it also carries a bit of risk that balances out those benefits.

 

Also keep in mind that in the case of most Adjustment Powers, buying the Advantage to affect various Powers of a given special effect simultaneously imposes a Limitation, in that the Power then *only* affects that special effect. It sucks if you're the Human Scorch and you go up against Fire Fighter, who purchased Ranged Drain that works simultaneously on up to four Fire Powers, but Fire Fighter can't do his Drain at all against the Scorch's non-flaming teammates. In some ways that limits him more than if he'd just bought Drain vs. STR or EB, which gives him the potential to affect a lot wider variety of characters. Absorbtion doesn't carry this Limitation, as it's inherently self-only - so you lose nothing and gain lots by deciding that it simultaneously adds to four of your related Powers. Absorbtion has its own inherent limits, though, which make this non-problematic.

 

In the case of Aid, it potentially limits things a lot, as it's rare that a character and his buddies all have the same special effects. In campaigns where this is *not* the case - perhaps one in which all the PCs were mystics/supernatural beings, or mentalists, or mutants, or gadgeteers - I suppose the GM might disallow or charge more for the Variable Effect Advantage, but I'd be inclined to just congratulate the player on making a character with team dynamics in mind.

[Vondy]

It may not be a big debate, but here is my ultimate pet peeve...

 

Having normal characteristic maxima set at 20 for the primary characteristics, and then turning around and declaring that the limit of human potential is 30. Its creates a conundrum and builds a gray area that leaves way too much open to subjective interpretation, and frequently leads to inflationary thinking in terms of design. It also leads to ludicrous notions of human limits that really aren't human at all, and leads players to pout when they find themselves in a game with more realistic expectations.

 

This one thing, more than Damage Shield and Regenerations, really steam me.

[Pattern Ghost]

Is it more the fact that there are two levels set, or just where they are set?

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Pattern Ghost

Is it more the fact that there are two levels set, or just where they are set?

 

1) it bothers me that there are two levels for humans, when one of those levels is clearly not for humans, but for characters from myth and legend, who do things that simply aren't human.

 

I think a clearer way of expressing the idea would have been:

 

1) Normal (or Realistic) Human Maxima: 20

2) Characters of Myth & Legend: 30

3) Superheroic: 31+

 

I run a superhero game where anything over 20 is considered a superpower and has to be justified within character concept, such as ego for mentalists. The one exception is Con (supers are tough and tend to burn a lot of endurance). All characters have normal characteristic maxima and have to pay double to go over. My brick players have handled this buy simply buying their strength as a power with the No Figured Characterisitics, which terminated the other players complaints about the brick buyback advantage (not my intent, but it worked out that way). At the same time its not low powers, several of the characters have VPPs in their respective FXs running between 70 and 90 points.

[Gary]

Originally posted by D-Man

1) it bothers me that there are two levels for humans, when one of those levels is clearly not for humans, but for characters from myth and legend, who do things that simply aren't human.

 

I think a clearer way of expressing the idea would have been:

 

1) Normal (or Realistic) Human Maxima: 20

2) Characters of Myth & Legend: 30

3) Superheroic: 31+

 

I run a superhero game where anything over 20 is considered a superpower and has to be justified within character concept, such as ego for mentalists. The one exception is Con (supers are tough and tend to burn a lot of endurance). All characters have normal characteristic maxima and have to pay double to go over. My brick players have handled this buy simply buying their strength as a power with the No Figured Characterisitics, which terminated the other players complaints about the brick buyback advantage (not my intent, but it worked out that way). At the same time its not low powers, several of the characters have VPPs in their respective FXs running between 70 and 90 points.

 

Wouldn't this cause a problem in the fact that virtually every character will have a 20 Dex and 4 spd unless they're a speedster?

 

Incidentally, there have clearly been a few people of "myth and legend" in human history.

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Gary

Wouldn't this cause a problem in the fact that virtually every character will have a 20 Dex and 4 spd unless they're a speedster?

 

Incidentally, there have clearly been a few people of "myth and legend" in human history.

 

1. No, it doesn't cause a problem - and incidentally - there's more variance in the DX range than you might think (14 being the low end of the scale and 27 being the high-end). When I killed the stat inflation game the players started becoming interested in skill levels and... gasp! powers.

 

I do allow martial artists and speedsters to take lightning reflexes if they just have to be "fast as lightning." As for speed, a martial artists with a four speed and two weapon fighting (lightning moves), or who has lots of skills levels with sweeps (fists of fury!), still has a speed advantage.

 

2. Yes, there have, but the idea (as presented in another thread), that navy seals could realistically have a 24 dex demonstrates the crux of my objection. they're all heroes of myth and legend?

[Gary]

Originally posted by D-Man

1. No, it doesn't cause a problem - and incidentally - there's more variance in the DX range than you might think (14 being the low end of the scale and 27 being the high-end). When I killed the stat inflation game the players started becoming interested in skill levels and... gasp! powers.

 

I do allow martial artists and speedsters to take lightning reflexes if they just have to be "fast as lightning." As for speed, a martial artists with a four speed and two weapon fighting (lightning moves), or who has lots of skills levels with sweeps (fists of fury!), still has a speed advantage.

 

2. Yes, there have, but the idea (as presented in another thread), that navy seals could realistically have a 24 dex demonstrates the crux of my objection. they're all heroes of myth and legend?

 

:shrug: It's your game and your players. It's just my experience that nobody would buy a 14 dex and skill levels unless their conceptions absolutely demand it. Dex is just too efficent, up to 20. At 14, normal agents and even random thugs will hit you too often. Also, it does sound like everyone has a spd of 4.

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Gary

:shrug: It's your game and your players. It's just my experience that nobody would buy a 14 dex and skill levels unless their conceptions absolutely demand it. Dex is just too efficent, up to 20. At 14, normal agents and even random thugs will hit you too often. Also, it does sound like everyone has a spd of 4.

 

 

Yep - my game, my players.

 

Not every player is a munchkin, and my players tend to be more worried about the other supers than the thugs. Anything built with the "real weapon" lim in my game doesn't do stun unless it does body...

 

Even if everyone were at 20 (and they aren't), that actually introduces more randomness than the regular speed chart schema because order is based on dex rolls.

 

My players prefer the essentially flattened speed chart. It speeds things up.

 

Its a matter of personal taste, but how I run my game doesn't reflect my objection to the current regimes implementation of: "human limits," which are inflationary and ritually abused.

[Jhamin]

I'm with D-Man on this one (Dex Levels)

 

When we did a "Chrisis" type event during the conversion to FREd I lowered the dex ratings of everyone in the campaign by 5-8 across the board. Players were allowed to spend the points on other powers, but often spent it buying back all the powers that got more expensive in the conversion.

 

Street thugs now have dex's of 8-12, Viper & Until have dex's of 12-14, and the players are in the 16-22 range. One player is all the way back at 10. OCV/DCY dropped pretty evenly across the board and now a dex of 21 is actually superhuman and remarked upon as such. A Navy Seal would have a 14 or so, and one with a name might go higher. Nick Fury no longer needs handwaving to haing with Captain America.

 

Sure, it isnt' as point efficient, but then again it isn't that point efficient to buy less than 40 str or to ever spend anything on figured characteristics either. Lots of folks do both because it just feels right.

[TheEmerged]

RE: Shapeshift. See, I'm on the flip side of that. I view the 5th Edition change to be an improvement -- not one of the top 10, and at least one necessary fix comes immediately to mind for 6th Edition (a base cost that would affect Sight Group, Sonar, Radar, Touch, and anything akin to a "ranged touch") -- but an improvement none the less. Given that to actually *do* anything different with the new shape you have to buy other powers, all shape shift ever does is affect senses anyway.

[zornwil]

Jhamin and D-Man, isn't your feeling also reflective of running realistic games? As I recall, D-Man, you've mentioned on a few occassions that you run (basically) realistic games.

 

I think you both raise fine points for realistic games but not too interested in those approaches for a "genre" (as loaded a term as that may be) high-powered super-hero game. I understand you have high-powered supers, but they sound "too" realistic for games I'd prefer.

 

Of course as to your point re maxima and human potential, IMHO, those should be relegated to source books anyway.

[Grailknight]

My big arguments are easily house ruled around so I don't get too worked up over them

 

STR and Char in general-Leave them alone, take away figured stats and you get another game entirely.

 

Damage Shield was fine at plus 1/2-just keep control of the other advantages on the power and you won't have a problem.

 

Kyrptonite Man situation- Its a disadvantage and you shouldn't have to pay fot it. The Human Torch wouldn't cost more if he was fighting Iceman and vice versa.

 

Shape Shift and Images do have conficts but each has just enough that the other doesn't to stay as separate powers.

 

Instant Change and Regeneration were both bad calls IMO-I agree with the idea of fewer powers, but these special cases take up more space for explantion than the old separate powers would have.

 

+1 Stun Multiple- Make the 1st level +1/2 and then +1/4 from there.

 

Cumulative Supress- Not a problem as long as you remember that as as adjustment power it still has a maximum, that it still costs END and breaking LOS should make it go away.If it still bothers you relative to Drain then take its range away.

 

My personal arguments

 

MEGASCALE-too much too easily, first step should be 10m at +1/2 then 100m and so on for +1/4.

 

Flash-too cheap for what it does-unfortunately IMO this is one of those genre vs game simulation powers that don't match up well. At 5 pts/die your typical MP Flash slot will cost your opponnent 1-3 near helpless actions. The problem is that you can do this over and over as long as you make your to hit roll. In genre, Flash is a once per battle suprise attack and is usually only used to heighten suspense or to help an overmatched foe put up a fight. Cost of defense is too high relative to the penalty for not having any defense.

Honestly, How many PC's have you written that had Flash defense that wasn't sufficient make you immune to what agents might carry?

 

Adders-They should be adders and not part of the power and subject to advantages and disadvantages. Megascale is so popular because it costs too much to be a speedster under 5th. At the very least bring back the idea that adders don't affect END cost. Any adder that you feel is too good under this system is shoud be a power advantage.

 

Adding damage rule- This is because the hand attack rules that what is supposed to be a disadvantage[limited power] and turn it into a special case power that is not consistent with the older rules for analogous powers( HTH KA). The idea that this disadvantage allows free advantages on your STR when you have to prorate STR for HTH KA is the biggest inconsistency I've seen in 5th.

 

EC's- Back in 4th, some powers - most notably the spot defenses and LS were classifed as special powers and couldn't be placed in ANY framework. This worked pretty well as long as you changed Damage Reduction to a special power. It allowed any of the other powers to be placed in EC's or multipowers without trouble and that seems to bethe way most of us houserule it. Drain one, drain all is too restrictive because it affects too many special effects. Munchkin hint : Drain Flight -you'll be more hated and go down quicker than a mentalist. Also why are Multipowers, which are more efficient and should be just as tight a concept immune.

 

Again, all of these are just my opinion and what I and my players use as our house rules. Do what's fun for you

 

 

 

[Vondy]

Originally posted by zornwil

Jhamin and D-Man, isn't your feeling also reflective of running realistic games? As I recall, D-Man, you've mentioned on a few occassions that you run (basically) realistic games.

 

I think you both raise fine points for realistic games but not too interested in those approaches for a "genre" (as loaded a term as that may be) high-powered super-hero game. I understand you have high-powered supers, but they sound "too" realistic for games I'd prefer.

 

Of course as to your point re maxima and human potential, IMHO, those should be relegated to source books anyway.

 

You are probably correct in this sense. I run a fairly realistic game, which could be termed as "iron age" in terms of continuity, power levels, and worldview (though its not as bloody and ruthless as most). There are powerful heroes (up to 90 in some VPPs), but it assumes a more realistic set of assumptions. My players call it "superheroic pulp," which is accurate enough, I guess.

 

As to genre - I think part of the problem is that DOJ tried to make "one stat chart to rule them all" when different types of games require different base assumptions. If I were to run a silver age game I would throw my current assumptions out the window and call out "no holds barred!" and "lets rock!" I don't really care for silver age style games (more than once in a while), just like you would probably not care for my game (more than once in a while).

 

The problem I have with DOJs chart is this: there's more than one genre of superheroes. If FRED is supposed to be generic to all genres (not just supers), and Champions is supposed to be the genre book (wherein it should have ranges for each superheroic sub-genre), why is does FRED take a position on it at all?

 

These are all things best left to individual genres, which require different assumptions.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by D-Man

The problem I have with DOJs chart is this: there's more than one genre of superheroes. If FRED is supposed to be generic to all genres (not just supers), and Champions is supposed to be the genre book (wherein it should have ranges for each superheroic sub-genre), why is does FRED take a position on it at all?

FREd does not take a position on it, nor as a core rule book does it need to. Champions also does not take a position on it, other than to say that you can have varying levels of characteristics depending on the style of play. It then goes on to give you the CU chart as an example. This is no different than FH giving you a spell system as an example of what to do. The CU chart is only for the Champions Universe material. All other non-CU material need to conform to that chart.

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Monolith

FREd does not take a position on it, nor as a core rule book does it need to. Champions also does not take a position on it, other than to say that you can have varying levels of characteristics depending on the style of play. It then goes on to give you the CU chart as an example. This is no different than FH giving you a spell system as an example of what to do. The CU chart is only for the Champions Universe material. All other non-CU material need to conform to that chart.

 

When Fred said superheroic 31+ it took a position.

[Rick]

I never understood the "It's better to buy a 20dex then a 10dex and +4 levels for my big slow barbarian, because its more cost effective". Don't people understand style, concept or convention. Hero's not really about cost effectivness, it's about representing source material. If someone came to me W/a over weight, past his prime bar brawler and tried to sell me W/a 20 dex I'd bounce the character.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by D-Man

When Fred said superheroic 31+ it took a position.

Please tell me where it says that in FREd. I have never seen that anywhere that I can remember. The only stat chart is the one in Champions, which is listed as the example for the official CU, and later reprinted in Champions Universe.

[Vondy]

Upon looking again you are indeed correct. Nevertheless, the Champions book, which is the Superheroic genre book (not a setting book), should not have included a one size (namely silver age) fits all chart. It should have included a chart with recommendations for each of the subgenres. If you run a silver age game it works. If you run a more realistic game its broken.

[megaplayboy]

Originally posted by D-Man

Upon looking again you are indeed correct. Nevertheless, the Champions book, which is the Superheroic genre book (not a setting book), should not have included a one size (namely silver age) fits all chart. It should have included a chart with recommendations for each of the subgenres. If you run a silver age game it works. If you run a more realistic game its broken.

 

The stats chart on page 58 of the Champions genre book is labeled "Champions Universe Characteristics Standards" and is cited as an example, not a hard guideline. If you read the accompanying text written on the stat ranges on pages 57 and 58, you will find that your concerns appear to be addressed.

[Vondy]

Originally posted by megaplayboy

The stats chart on page 58 of the Champions genre book is labeled "Champions Universe Characteristics Standards" and is cited as an example, not a hard guideline. If you read the accompanying text written on the stat ranges on pages 57 and 58, you will find that your concerns appear to be addressed.

 

Its not my concerns I'm worried about. Its the fact that even though its not a "hard-guideline" and "just an example" I am regularly confronted with the assumption that a superheroic game run in hero automatically has to use those standards, which brings me to my criticism of Champions as a supplement (and I think its pretty good all things considered).

 

It discusses several sub-superheroic genres, and then proceeds to present character examples and source material that is only relevant to one of those genres (late silver, early bronze age). In Ninja Hero, for instance, there were presentations of characters for multiple levels of play, whereas Champions presents the Champions, Mechanon, and a small cadre of villians who are only exemplary of one sub-genre (all designed to CU specs, which is one sub-genre).

 

When the supplement is supposed to be a generic superheroic setting supplement, but presents examples that are clearly from one subgenre, its becomes very specific (not generic). This isn't an argument against the CU levels as they were set (those are internally consistent to the setting). Its an argument against having the genre book assume one particulair genres base assumptions in the examples and source materials it presents.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by D-Man

When the supplement is supposed to be a generic superheroic setting supplement, but presents examples that are clearly from one subgenre, its becomes very specific (not generic). This isn't an argument against the CU levels as they were set (those are internally consistent to the setting). Its an argument against having the genre book assume one particulair genres base assumptions in the examples and source materials it presents.

When it comes to characters each genre book only gives one style of examples. The Champions book gives the Champions and its villains. Star Hero gives Argos Exploration and its villains. Fantasy Hero gives Drudaryon's Legion and its villains. The purpose of the genre book is not to give a dozen different styles of character examples. It gives you a dozen different choices that you can use, and then shows one style for example. That way pages are not wasted trying to show examples for every possible permutation.

 

In any event, I am certainly not going to fault a genre book just because it did not show you 6 different examples of how characteristics are used. It showed the most common example, and that is good enough for me. The HERO System does require a certain amount of independent thought, after all. It is not a one-size-fits-all type of game. Some things must be extrapolated from the text when a GM wishes do deviate from the published examples.

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Monolith

 

In any event, I am certainly not going to fault a genre book just because it did not show you 6 different examples of how characteristics are used. It showed the most common example, and that is good enough for me. The HERO System does require a certain amount of independent thought, after all. It is not a one-size-fits-all type of game. Some things must be extrapolated from the text when a GM wishes do deviate from the published examples. [/b]

 

You won't, I will. I fail to see what the point of arguing about it is. I expressed a personal opinion and your arguments do not sway me. You will have to live with the fact that not all of us will adopt your crusaders zealous view that hero is perfect in every way.