Hand-to-Hand Limitation Question

[Christopher]

Re: Hand-to-Hand Limitation Question

 

I'm not sure I get what you mean by that not counting point for point?

I think he means that 13 INT and 14,15,16 or 17 INT have no difference at all (unless adjustment powers enter the field).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Hand-to-Hand Limitation Question

 

Strength allows you to do damage at no range, at range with an object of opportunity, and also lift, move and manipulate objects.

 

It should probably cost 2 points per point, but that makes for balance issues elsewhere, allegedly. The cost is unlikely to change, and indeed, did not in 6e, despite discussion about it. Only the most dyed-in-the-wool role players would pay 5 points for +1d6 or 'no range' damage when they could get 5 points of STR for the same cost that does that and more.

 

I would certainly get rid of INT as a separate characteristic: it is unnecessary and everything it does could be done with skill levels. The other characteristics all have some other use in-game, over and above skill use. Is DEX overpriced? Possibly, but then Hero is balanced for combat more than role playing or storytelling, and DEX skills have more impact in combat than most other skills. Going first is not that big of a deal, but going last is, and DEX helps there.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Hand-to-Hand Limitation Question

 

Speaking of Hand attacks I thought for 6th they should have had an advantage whereas you could redefine the strength from doing damage to say use strength for grabs, or to break out of holds. Basically making it just like extra DC for martial manuevers, alas i t wasn't to be.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Hand-to-Hand Limitation Question

 

It seems like "DEX skills are more combat oriented" gets trotted out in each discussion of the higher cost of DEX.

 

Yet DEX costs more whether or not you have DEX skills. Don't we pay for what we get?

 

Second, some DEX skills (of the 12 agility skills) have combat applications, but not all. Do you often Climb in combat? Pick locks? Sleight of Hand? Riding is a fluff skill in Supers games. Stealth and Contortionist can be used in combat on occasion. Combat Piloting and Driving are relevant in games that feature vehicle combat.

 

There are 28 intellect skills (before counting KS). Analyze Style is a combat skill. You can't see combat uses for Demolitions? Lipreading assists in reading the enemy leadership's battle instructions. Mimicry enables you to counteract them. Paramedics saves lives (breakfall saves half phases). What non-combat use does Tactics have? Ventriloquism provides a combat distraction. Weaponsmith is used to unjam weapons in combat, isn't it? Wouldn't Knowledge Skills assist in identifying adversaries' powers and weaknesses? KS: Supervillains gets cited a lot on the Champions board.

 

A dozen interaction skills. Animal Handler allows you to ad allies to combat. Isn't Acting used to play possum? Seems like Bureaucratics and Trading are useful to get weapons used in combat (which might otherwise) be unavailable. Of course, as pointed out above, interaction can enable combat to be avoided entirely. Leaving skills aside, I'd say PRE attacks are a pretty combat-oriented aspect of the game.

 

As to Strength, the removal of Figured in 6th did a lot to rebalance STR. Is Tekekinesis overpowered and underpriced? It does everything STR does, at range. I don't see the STR issue being as significant as it was pre-6e.

 

I do think "objects of opportunity" are much too easily used in many games, but I suggest this is the GM making STR more valuable. Do we allow characters to sever power lines or blast fire hydrants to get unusual effects from their Blasts as freely as we permit a high STR character to get a free AoE at range? First step for me is to rule that size of object provides OCV bonuses, not AoE equivalent. When the Hulk throws a bus at SpiderMan, he doesn't go SpiderSplat, he nimbly runs along the rolling bus, or dives through its windows on one side and out the other. Nice OCV bonus, but not enough to beat Spidey's DCV (and, of course, it still needs to offset the penalty for an unwieldy object). And why is it a -3 penalty to throw a Knife (no WF) but only -1 to throw a manhole cover? No WF: Manhole Covers? Maybe you should suck up the -3 penalty.

 

Of course, this is generally only an issue in Supers games. Few Heroic characters have the STR to throw cars around. Of course, they have gear and encumbrance to worry about.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Hand-to-Hand Limitation Question

 

Speaking of Hand attacks I thought for 6th they should have had an advantage whereas you could redefine the strength from doing damage to say use strength for grabs' date=' or to break out of holds. Basically making it just like extra DC for martial manuevers, alas i t wasn't to be. [/quote']

 

To me, that would be the appropriate -1/4 limitation, with direct damage only being -1/2. For 4 points, you can add 5 STR of effect to one set of combat maneuvers, either Normal or Martial, seems reasonable.

[Christopher]

Re: Hand-to-Hand Limitation Question

 

It seems like "DEX skills are more combat oriented" gets trotted out in each discussion of the higher cost of DEX.

 

Yet DEX costs more whether or not you have DEX skills. Don't we pay for what we get?

 

Second, some DEX skills (of the 12 agility skills) have combat applications, but not all. Do you often Climb in combat? Pick locks? Sleight of Hand? Riding is a fluff skill in Supers games. Stealth and Contortionist can be used in combat on occasion. Combat Piloting and Driving are relevant in games that feature vehicle combat.

 

There are 28 intellect skills (before counting KS). Analyze Style is a combat skill. You can't see combat uses for Demolitions? Lipreading assists in reading the enemy leadership's battle instructions. Mimicry enables you to counteract them. Paramedics saves lives (breakfall saves half phases). What non-combat use does Tactics have? Ventriloquism provides a combat distraction. Weaponsmith is used to unjam weapons in combat, isn't it? Wouldn't Knowledge Skills assist in identifying adversaries' powers and weaknesses? KS: Supervillains gets cited a lot on the Champions board.

Afaik unjamming and basic Maintenance fall under "Weapon Familarity". (Edit: It's a full phase that can be halved with Weaponsmith).

Tatics outside of combat has a use - not getting into combat, or at a very favorable condition.

Paramedics can stop bleeding, but that is mostly a mater in heroic games anyway.

 

I do think "objects of opportunity" are much too easily used in many games' date=' but I suggest this is the GM making STR more valuable. Do we allow characters to sever power lines or blast fire hydrants to get unusual effects from their Blasts as freely as we permit a high STR character to get a free AoE at range? First step for me is to rule that size of object provides OCV bonuses, not AoE equivalent.[/quote']

Consider the AoE option for Spreading. I think characters should be able to choose to apply the OCV bonsu eitehr directly, or covert it to 1m Areas as under Spreading.

 

When the Hulk throws a bus at SpiderMan' date=' he doesn't go SpiderSplat, he nimbly runs along the rolling bus, or dives through its windows on one side and out the other. Nice OCV bonus, but not enough to beat Spidey's DCV (and, of course, it still needs to offset the penalty for an unwieldy object).[/quote']

That sounds more like the SFX for a Diver for Cover. Not much of a problem for a Martial Artist with his high DEX...

 

And why is it a -3 penalty to throw a Knife (no WF) but only -1 to throw a manhole cover? No WF: Manhole Covers? Maybe you should suck up the -3 penalty.

People who regulary throw manhole covers rarely have to deal with Weapon Familarities.

And of course finding an object that can transmit your strenght is a problem in itself.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Hand-to-Hand Limitation Question

 

Tatics outside of combat has a use - not getting into combat, or at a very favorable condition.

Paramedics can stop bleeding, but that is mostly a mater in heroic games anyway.

 

Acrobatics and breakfall have uses outside combat as well, and paramedics saves lives, whatever the game. How often is it used outside a combat context, either during or right after?

 

Consider the AoE option for Spreading. I think characters should be able to choose to apply the OCV bonsu eitehr directly' date=' or covert it to 1m Areas as under Spreading.[/quote']

 

I like that idea - extra OCV to either increase the chance of hitting or increase the area of "non-selective area" seems a good balance. It also covers swinging that lamppost nicely!

 

That sounds more like the SFX for a Diver for Cover. Not much of a problem for a Martial Artist with his high DEX...

 

Except the character tends not to be off his footing afterwards, so I don't think he's Prone. It seems like the SFX of a high DCV, perhaps even augmented by a Dodge (except for those situations where Spidey or the Beast nimbly bounce off the hurled object and flip into an attack against the person who threw it).

 

People who regulary throw manhole covers rarely have to deal with Weapon Familarities.

 

WF does not apply if you paid points for the weapon. Captain Cold paid for his cold gun, and Captain America paid points for his shield. If they swap, they're both looking at penalties (well, maybe CA isn't because he has WF: Firearms, assuming Cold's gun is similar enough to fall under the same group). Nothing says WF are irrelevant to Supers for weapons of opportunity.

 

And of course finding an object that can transmit your strenght is a problem in itself.

 

Another aspect of "we make it easy for Bricks to have the desired object of opportunity, then complain that STR is underpriced".

[ghost-angel]

Re: Hand-to-Hand Limitation Question

 

If I recall, one of the arguments that Dex should be 2/1 is that going first in Combat is such an important aspect that it alone is worth 1 point, and everything else Dex provides another point.

[Christopher]

Re: Hand-to-Hand Limitation Question

 

Acrobatics and breakfall have uses outside combat as well' date=' and paramedics saves lives, whatever the game. How often is it used outside a combat context, either during or right after?[/quote']

Acrobatics:

It allows you things like jumping between driving vehicles - combat

It allwos you to avoid an obstacle and still be ready to fight - combat use

It allows you to get a "Suprise Move" bonus - combat use

It allwos you to keep balance on ledges, tirghropes. Comabt use. In noncombat you just can take extra time. If you even need to throw outside of combat. After all: "The character can perform easy feats of balance (like walking on a balance beam) with no chance of falling."

 

 

Paramedics:

It's only use is to stop bleeding in combat. Outside of combat, when you can get help easily, you hardly get anything for your points.

 

 

Except the character tends not to be off his footing afterwards' date=' so I don't think he's Prone.[/quote']

I think for most martial artist "beign prone" isn't so much of a problem. After all they tend to have more phases that Bricks. Also see below for the full rules of usign cars as weapons in AoE use...

 

WF does not apply if you paid points for the weapon. Captain Cold paid for his cold gun' date=' and Captain America paid points for his shield. If they swap, they're both looking at penalties (well, maybe CA isn't because he has WF: Firearms, assuming Cold's gun is similar enough to fall under the same group). Nothing says WF are irrelevant to Supers for weapons of opportunity.[/quote']

It is rarer to trade weapons, than to pick up somethign to throw in the source material

 

Another aspect of "we make it easy for Bricks to have the desired object of opportunity' date=' then complain that STR is underpriced".[/quote']

I don't think it is easy:

First you need something that is able to even sustain a strike from you - something with PD+Body > than your STR Dice. Tends to be aroudn 12 for Bricks. You only get +1 DC for every 2 Durability beyond that.

Then it must be easily detachable (lampposts tend to not fall in that category).

You can only add damage to Strike in HTH, not any other (or martial) Maneuver.

Every damage you do with the impro weapon, is something the weapon takes itself. Often destroying it with the first attack

You must be able to carry it with your casual STR, or get OCV penalties

Even an object that is "balanced" for use as weapon gives a -0 to -2 OCV penalty. I don't exaclty regard a manhoel cover as "balance" as a hth or throwing weapon

Thowing has it's own set of rules and unless Blast, this is a one shot (literally).

 

For the use of large Improvised weapons, there are two Alternatives (like in "not usable togehter"):

1. The AoE "unlike normal [...] targets often can Dodge this sort of attack. For example, a knight could simply duck under (or jump over) the log as the giant swings it; the heroes could step out of the way of the car (or acrobatically dive through the open windows)".

2. OCV bonus based on size of the object (relative to the target size).

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Hand-to-Hand Limitation Question

 

To me' date=' that would be the appropriate -1/4 limitation, with direct damage only being -1/2. For 4 points, you can add 5 STR of effect to one set of combat maneuvers, either Normal or Martial, seems reasonable.[/quote']

 

I'm glad some else thought it was reasonable.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Hand-to-Hand Limitation Question

 

If I recall' date=' one of the arguments that Dex should be 2/1 is that going first in Combat is such an important aspect that it alone is worth 1 point, and everything else Dex provides another point.[/quote']

 

I think that I saw the same thing. And I said it before, it might be due to my wargaming experience, but I like the initiative to go first and I'll gladly pay for the privilege.

[Laundry Knight]

Re: Hand-to-Hand Limitation Question

 

I decided to go back and do re-writes of my characters with the lower DEX cost. It seems to work out alright with me, but I am not a min-maxer. I seldom use extra points to build more combat capacity unless that is part of the character conception. I am sure min-maxers and munchkins can find ways of abusing the system, but that is what min-maxers and munchkins are good at anyway.

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: Hand-to-Hand Limitation Question

 

If I recall' date=' one of the arguments that Dex should be 2/1 is that going first in Combat is such an important aspect that it alone is worth 1 point, and everything else Dex provides another point.[/quote']

 

I disagree with this argument completely. Initiative hits diminishing returns pretty quickly. You only need one more point in it than your opponents in order to go first, everything after that is just a buffer against Snap Shot and the like.

 

And, as has already been pointed out, it only matters in combat. Even in my combat heavy games we occasionally go whole sessions without a single combat. Supers games have their share of baffling crimes to puzzle out, and fantasy games also have their fair share of labyrinths, riddles, and things too powerful to fight.

 

Initiative is not enough to justify Dex being worth more than Str. Especially since, if your that interested in initiative, you can pick it up separately for cheap.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Hand-to-Hand Limitation Question

 

Outside of combat' date=' when you can get help easily, you hardly get anything for your points.[/quote']

 

Almost every use of my real life Paramedics (First Aid if you're just doing triage, really) has been out of a combat situation. In fact the emergency going on was the person bleeding or with a broken limb and everything else had been, all things considered, rather calm. Heck even the situation of using Paramedics until help arrived was rather non-combative in nature.

 

I've had to perform CPR for almost two and a half minutes, while that sounds short it feels like about seven decades. Non-combat.

I've had to hold a broken wrist steady because no splint was available, the person was very calm and as long as neither of us twitched wasn't in any considerable pain (I think they said it was a 6 on the 1-10 scale and had done worse), while we waited for EMS to arrive. Non-combat.

 

Paramedics is used All The Time outside of Combat. You can get lots of use for the points - just because we don't go phase by phase or it's narrated away with a few sentences and a roll, doesn't mean the points aren't used.

 

Which brings me to another point I see that's brought up in a round about way - points that aren't used in a phase-to-phase (Combat time) situation like Paramedics, or SS: Physics aren't worth the points as they tend to be just a roll, and a quick description - but how often is that moving the adventure forward, saving the day, or otherwise somehow impacting the game in a major way? I'd guess often enough.

 

How do you measure if something is worth the points spent? Does it have to take up a significant portion of Real Time spent gaming (which Combat tends to take up lots of), or does it have to have some major impact on the game: Does spending an hour beating up a dozen mooks in Real Time make those points worth more than the actual disarming of the bomb that will kill Everyone In Ten Kilometers with a Demolitions Roll in five minutes, or are those points worth more? Both may have had equal narrative impact but one was done Combat and one done Non-Combat.

 

Combat got you to the bomb, an Intellect Skill got you to save the day. Doesn't matter how quick you can go in Combat, the INT Skill sure made everyone Not Dead.

 

By the System stating Dex is 2/1 while Int is 1/1 it has automatically decided the Mook Combat is worth more points than the Disarming Bomb Skill Check. And that's where I take issue. The System doesn't get to decide that for me. That's the opposite of a toolkit.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Hand-to-Hand Limitation Question

 

Almost every use of my real life Paramedics (First Aid if you're just doing triage, really) has been out of a combat situation. In fact the emergency going on was the person bleeding or with a broken limb and everything else had been, all things considered, rather calm. Heck even the situation of using Paramedics until help arrived was rather non-combative in nature.

 

I've had to perform CPR for almost two and a half minutes, while that sounds short it feels like about seven decades. Non-combat.

I've had to hold a broken wrist steady because no splint was available, the person was very calm and as long as neither of us twitched wasn't in any considerable pain (I think they said it was a 6 on the 1-10 scale and had done worse), while we waited for EMS to arrive. Non-combat.

 

Paramedics is used All The Time outside of Combat. You can get lots of use for the points - just because we don't go phase by phase or it's narrated away with a few sentences and a roll, doesn't mean the points aren't used.

 

I'll second that. (I was an EMT several years ago while being a volunteer Fire-fighter)

[Christopher]

Re: Hand-to-Hand Limitation Question

 

I've had to perform CPR for almost two and a half minutes' date=' while that sounds short it feels like about seven decades.Non-combat.[/quote']

This was the ONE case of all your examples where time mattered. You tried to prevent a person from "bleeding to death" (in this case the SFX was the person heart having stopped).

 

In all the others, you had the leisure to take +2 from extra time alone. Nothing you described required more than a 10- Roll or PS: Paramdic at 11-. Propably your GM doesn't even required a roll.

The only time it mattered was the time you reanimated someone - here you had to outrun his death from oxigen loss.

 

[...]SS: Physics aren't worth the points as they tend to be just a roll, and a quick description - but how often is that moving the adventure forward, saving the day, or otherwise somehow impacting the game in a major way? I'd guess often enough.

[...]

Combat got you to the bomb, an Intellect Skill got you to save the day. Doesn't matter how quick you can go in Combat, the INT Skill sure made everyone Not Dead.

The question is:

Was the riddle that SS: Physics could solve or the bomb you could disarm there because it was there anywhere, or because your character had the skill for it?

 

Things that only serve as plot devices, should not cost the player anything at all.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Hand-to-Hand Limitation Question

 

Is combat only there because character's spend points on combat abilities?

[Christopher]

Re: Hand-to-Hand Limitation Question

 

Is combat only there because character's spend points on combat abilities?

Combat is a genre expectation.

 

SS: Physics and Paramedics in a important role not so much...

The times Filmes mention it, they don't even get it right.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Hand-to-Hand Limitation Question

 

Which Genre?

 

You're making massively wide statements on roleplaying in general. But thank you for telling me how my games should be going.

[Laundry Knight]

Re: Hand-to-Hand Limitation Question

 

Genre is important regarding what skills and attributes are important. With Hero, you could run anything Alien to The Love Boat to Alien Vs. The Love Boat.

 

On this week's episode of The Love Boat, can Gopher and Doc teach an alien menace about love and relationships before all the passengers and crew are eaten? Guest Starring: Sonny Bono

[ghost-angel]

Re: Hand-to-Hand Limitation Question

 

Genre is important regarding what skills and attributes are important. With Hero, you could run anything Alien to The Love Boat to Alien Vs. The Love Boat.

 

On this week's episode of The Love Boat, can Gopher and Doc teach an alien menace about love and relationships before all the passengers and crew are eaten? Guest Starring: Sonny Bono

 

And that's my point in a nutshell.

 

If you're going to say Dexterity is worth more points because it lets you go first - or any reason at all - you have already made a decision on the types of games that are going to be played: specifically ones that place emphasis on physical combat.

 

It's a poor way to create an any-genre toolkit. It was a bad decision.

[Christopher]

Re: Hand-to-Hand Limitation Question

 

Which Genre?

 

You're making massively wide statements on roleplaying in general. But thank you for telling me how my games should be going.

Champions, Fanasy Hero, Cyber Hero, Sci-Fi Hero.

6E2 Chapter 1 through 5 are only about combat. (129 Pages)

6 and 7 have large parts only usefull for combat (like the weapon and armor rules, how vehicle combat works, the combat relevant values of vehicles and bases).

 

So I would say combat being a large part of the game regardless of genre is a basic asumption behind any pricing of the hero game system.

 

And that's my point in a nutshell.

 

If you're going to say Dexterity is worth more points because it lets you go first - or any reason at all - you have already made a decision on the types of games that are going to be played: specifically ones that place emphasis on physical combat.

 

It's a poor way to create an any-genre toolkit. It was a bad decision.

It may be Genre Neutral, but it isn't Playstyle neutral.

If it were, the price for every characteristic would have to be given as a range like 0.5-5 per 1 CP.

I am a programmer (wich is suprisngly similar to how HERO works, in some areas) and I can't make anything without placing at least SOME asumptions in the field. The same way hero games could not do anything without some asumptions.

 

Placing the asumption that combat will be an important part is totally logical and conclusive. It is a common ground in every single RPG I know (a dozen or so).

Now if you say "In MY not combat heavy games DEX is overpriced", then the only answer is "Then reprice it in YOUR games".

If you say "DEX has to be repriced" I answer with your words: "You're making massively wide statements on roleplaying in general. But thank you for telling me how my games should be going."

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Hand-to-Hand Limitation Question

 

I find DEX overpriced in games with considerable combat. "Oh, I want to go first or have the option to go last"? OK - how much will you spend on that? A 23 DEX should leave you comfortable all those DEX skills you bought will generally succeed. How much more do you need to be confident of going first? Another 10 (20 points?). OK, so you buy another 10 DEX. The opponent buys another 2 SPD and gets more actions than you (maybe enough that he Aborts the first one to Block/Dodge/DFC your first strike). Or +10/+10 PD/ED so he can weather your first strike, or +4 DCV so that first strike likely misses him.

 

Now, if I have few or no DEX based skills, and I drop back from your "I desperately want to be first" 33 DEX to "I'm not going first with 23, I don't use many DEX rolls; make it 8 DEX", I'm now 50 points up on you. What will you do with your first action that will offset my advantage of, say, an extra 2 DC's, +2 OCV, +2 DCV, +20 STUN and +1 SPD?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Hand-to-Hand Limitation Question

 

I'm saying all Characteristics should be priced equally as the baseline assumption that each element is worth the same until you form the game being played.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Hand-to-Hand Limitation Question

 

It seems like "DEX skills are more combat oriented" gets trotted out in each discussion of the higher cost of DEX.

 

Yet DEX costs more whether or not you have DEX skills. Don't we pay for what we get?

 

Good point, although I would completely remove the coupling of characteristics and skills, if I was in charge which, praise the lord, I'm not. Of course having skills pegged to characteristics is useful in some ways: it gives you something to aim adjustment powers at.

 

Second, some DEX skills (of the 12 agility skills) have combat applications, but not all. Do you often Climb in combat? Pick locks? Sleight of Hand? Riding is a fluff skill in Supers games. Stealth and Contortionist can be used in combat on occasion. Combat Piloting and Driving are relevant in games that feature vehicle combat.

 

There are 28 intellect skills (before counting KS). Analyze Style is a combat skill. You can't see combat uses for Demolitions? Lipreading assists in reading the enemy leadership's battle instructions. Mimicry enables you to counteract them. Paramedics saves lives (breakfall saves half phases). What non-combat use does Tactics have? Ventriloquism provides a combat distraction. Weaponsmith is used to unjam weapons in combat, isn't it? Wouldn't Knowledge Skills assist in identifying adversaries' powers and weaknesses? KS: Supervillains gets cited a lot on the Champions board.

 

A dozen interaction skills. Animal Handler allows you to ad allies to combat. Isn't Acting used to play possum? Seems like Bureaucratics and Trading are useful to get weapons used in combat (which might otherwise) be unavailable. Of course, as pointed out above, interaction can enable combat to be avoided entirely. Leaving skills aside, I'd say PRE attacks are a pretty combat-oriented aspect of the game.

 

Don't forget that DEX is used for other things in combat, like determining if you can DFC and determining if you go first when interrupting another's action. I'm not suggesting that DEX is pegged at the right price, but I'm not sure what the right price would be: probably not a whole number.

 

 

As to Strength, the removal of Figured in 6th did a lot to rebalance STR. Is Tekekinesis overpowered and underpriced? It does everything STR does, at range. I don't see the STR issue being as significant as it was pre-6e.

 

I do think "objects of opportunity" are much too easily used in many games, but I suggest this is the GM making STR more valuable. Do we allow characters to sever power lines or blast fire hydrants to get unusual effects from their Blasts as freely as we permit a high STR character to get a free AoE at range? First step for me is to rule that size of object provides OCV bonuses, not AoE equivalent. When the Hulk throws a bus at SpiderMan, he doesn't go SpiderSplat, he nimbly runs along the rolling bus, or dives through its windows on one side and out the other. Nice OCV bonus, but not enough to beat Spidey's DCV (and, of course, it still needs to offset the penalty for an unwieldy object). And why is it a -3 penalty to throw a Knife (no WF) but only -1 to throw a manhole cover? No WF: Manhole Covers? Maybe you should suck up the -3 penalty.

 

Of course, this is generally only an issue in Supers games. Few Heroic characters have the STR to throw cars around. Of course, they have gear and encumbrance to worry about.

 

STR is still underpriced and TK is definitely underpriced but we automatically compensate. I still think that the 'fast brick' is a character that takes some beating as a general purpose all-rounder.