AoE Damage Sink defensive power

[Sidetrack]

The effect I'm looking for is this: the hero aborts to a power that desolidifies the earth under an AoE to the attack damage, doubling the volume/area affected and halving the damage, assuming the FX of the AoE match up.

 

The nearest I've been able to come is this:

 

36 Physical+Energy Damage Reduction, Resistant, 50%,

Ranged (+1/2), Usable Nearby (+3/4), Grantor pays END (134 Active Points);

Side Effects, occurs automatically (affects character and recipients; Surrounding Earth provides no cover; -0), Only vs. AoE groundburst Uncommon attack (-3/4), Instant (-1/2), Only on earth/stone (-1/2), Requires A Roll (Block roll; -1/2), Nonpersistent (-1/4), Costs Half Endurance (-1/4)

 

or

 

16 Resistant Protection (10 PD/10 ED)

Ranged (+1/2), Usable Nearby (+3/4), Grantor pays END (67 Active Points);

Side Effects, occurs automatically (affects character and recipients; Surrounding Earth provides no cover; -0), Only vs. AoE groundburst Uncommon attack (-3/4), Only up to Half of Damage (-1/2), Instant (-1/2), Only on earth/stone (-1/2), Requires A Roll (Block roll; -1/2), Nonpersistent (-1/4), Costs Half Endurance (-1/4)

 

Is that going to function the way I'm expecting?

[Christopher]

Re: AoE Damage Sink defensive power

 

How is making the earth desolid going to affect a fireball? Or what would be a "mathcing SFX"?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: AoE Damage Sink defensive power

 

HERO works better when you begin with the Special Effect that you want first and then choose the HERO mechanics (Powers) that best model that effect second. Just modeling a mechanic with another mechanic without the context of a starting Special Effect is pointless.

[Sidetrack]

Re: AoE Damage Sink defensive power

 

How is making the earth desolid going to affect a fireball? Or what would be a "mathcing SFX"?

 

Instead of of having fire reflecting off of and rolling along the ground, some of it is dissipated downward, so you end up with a less intense fireball. Less of a hemisphere and more of a sphere, or less of a circular effect and more of a hemisphere

[Sidetrack]

Re: AoE Damage Sink defensive power

 

HERO works better when you begin with the Special Effect that you want first and then choose the HERO mechanics (Powers) that best model that effect second. Just modeling a mechanic with another mechanic without the context of a starting Special Effect is pointless.

 

OK, I have a hero with earth/stone and related desolidification powers and I have this idea for an effect that he can dissipate AoE damage directed at the ground... or is that a mechanic? I have an idea that might get me there but I suppose I'm wildly missing your point?

[Christopher]

Re: AoE Damage Sink defensive power

 

Instead of of having fire reflecting off of and rolling along the ground' date=' some of it is dissipated downward, so you end up with a less intense fireball. Less of a hemisphere and more of a sphere, or less of a circular effect and more of a hemisphere[/quote']

The problem is: The fireball is entiteled do go in every direction and still do it's full damage. A being in the air does not takes less than a being on the ground.

 

I am not certain if there are rules for reflection (the explosion in enclosed room problem), but they never apply to the Fireball in the first place.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: AoE Damage Sink defensive power

 

I am not certain if there are rules for reflection (the explosion in enclosed room problem), but they never apply to the Fireball in the first place.

 

There are options to simultate this within the AOE Advantage itself (it might be in one of the APG books if it's not covered in 6e1).

[Christopher]

Re: AoE Damage Sink defensive power

 

There are options to simultate this within the AOE Advantage itself (it might be in one of the APG books if it's not covered in 6e1).

There is Comforming in APG I 134.

But this advantage never even tries to overcome what blocks it (does not do damage against it), it just means the attack still tries to fill the same area (not even volumen) by expanding more.

[Sidetrack]

Re: AoE Damage Sink defensive power

 

The problem is: The fireball is entiteled do go in every direction and still do it's full damage. A being in the air does not takes less than a being on the ground.

 

I am not certain if there are rules for reflection (the explosion in enclosed room problem), but they never apply to the Fireball in the first place.

 

Well, I suppose there's more than one way to skin a fireball, that sounds like the quintessential magical type and maybe that effect just doesn't match. I'm thinking more along the lines of unshaping a shaped charge,

[Christopher]

Re: AoE Damage Sink defensive power

 

Well' date=' I suppose there's more than one way to skin a fireball, that sounds like the quintessential magical type and maybe that effect just doesn't match.[/quote']

Not by the Core Rules.

A fireball is a Blast or RKA, Area of Effect.

When it hit's a barrier that is strong enough to stop it, it does not refelcts and the "lost" area does not come up anywhere else.

Objects don't create shadows (unless they are "big" enough to block it on all sides).

If you stand on the ground 16m from the center or fly in the air 16m above the center, a 16m Radius fireball hit's everyone with the same damage.

 

If the GM in your game has come up with a different Rule on how Area of Effect attacks work, you work with that rule.

 

I'm thinking more along the lines of unshaping a shaped charge' date='[/quote']

What is the game effect of "Unshaping a shaped Charge"?

Or better: What is the game effect of a Shaped Charge?

[Sidetrack]

Re: AoE Damage Sink defensive power

 

OK then guys, I want the earth to eat up damage from an area effect, a bomb, a fireball, a grenade, a huge fist slammed into the ground... how would you do it?

[Christopher]

Re: AoE Damage Sink defensive power

 

OK then guys' date=' I want the earth to eat up damage from an area effect, a bomb, a fireball, a grenade, a huge fist slammed into the ground... how would you do it?[/quote']

Not at all. Not having earth there does not affects how the damage is done.

You can make extra Defense, only when standing on the ground. The damage hits you, but your power channels a part of it into the ground like a lightning rod.

 

There is an "Explosion" modifier for Area of Effect, but that one only means that the Attack looses Strenght over distance. It does not (in itself) apply any "damage reflects from surfaces" rules.

 

I think you should go one step further back then you have before:

What is your intent?

If you built a blast, your intent is to do damage. If it's a normal, Armor Piercing, or Area of Effect attack is irrelevant.

If you built a defense, your intent is to not take damage.

 

With the power you want to build, what is the effect? Taking less damage yourself? Protecting yourself and your allies?

[Sidetrack]

Re: AoE Damage Sink defensive power

 

Not by the Core Rules.

What is the game effect of "Unshaping a shaped Charge"?

Or better: What is the game effect of a Shaped Charge?

 

Well, a shaped charge on the side of a bridge beam would normally direct the force into tearing it apart, if I unshaped it it would make a big boom exploding out into the air and cause much less damage to the beam. A shaped charge in a claymore mine throws all kinds of nasty stuff through the "this side front", take out the confining structure and it explodes up down sideways and backwards doing less damage overall. Put a bullet in a gun and the barrel and expanding gas force the bullet out at high velocity, throw the bullet in the fire and the heavy bullet stays put and the deformed cartridge might hit somebody hard enough to leave a bruise.

 

The in game effect of unshaping a charge would be, I hope, to reduce the amount of damage the AoE burst does to the area it would usually affect.

[Christopher]

Re: AoE Damage Sink defensive power

 

Well' date=' a shaped charge on the side of a bridge beam would normally direct the force into tearing it apart, if I unshaped it it would make a big boom exploding out into the air and cause much less damage to the beam[/quote']

In hero terms:

Shaped Charges is built as a RKA, No Range, mabye with Trigger.

Unshaped Charges is built as a RKA, Area of Effect, No Range. Maybe with Trigger.

As the active points and DC are affected by the advanage, an area of effect attack will always deal less damage against multiple targets for the same price.

 

A shaped charge in a claymore mine throws all kinds of nasty stuff through the "this side front"' date=' take out the confining structure and it explodes up down sideways and backwards doing less damage overall.[/quote']

There is a "2-dimensional" Modifier for Area of Effect. When you use it the attack is not spherical but a flat (2m high) cylinder. Maybe you can get your GM to allow a "half-sphere modifier".

Since your area of effect with those modifiers costs less, you can get more Rolled Dice into the same amount of Active Points.

The same way are of effect with Explosion costs less, thus more base dice for the same AP.

 

Your aim seem to be to rewrite the entire power to one with the same Active Points but a more expensive Area of Effect Advantage, thus reducing the damage.

While there might be some ways this is possible, all require GM-approval.

[Sidetrack]

Re: AoE Damage Sink defensive power

 

With the power you want to build' date=' what is the effect? Taking less damage yourself? Protecting yourself and your allies?[/quote']

 

My intent is to reduce damage done... to the character, his allies, enemies, priceless ming vases, small furry squirrels, and even mimes.

 

Your aim seem to be to rewrite the entire power to one with the same Active Points but a more expensive Area of Effect Advantage, thus reducing the damage.

While there might be some ways this is possible, all require GM-approval.

 

A fair assessment and I shouldn't have too much trouble getting my own approval, but I'm looking for something workable in a broader sense. I'm looking for a character that can do amazing things with earth and stone but not much to people (say turning them into lightning rods) and looking for input on a questionable topic. The AoEs could certainly be drained beforehand with the fx of passing the additional damage harmlessly into the earth (of course the bomber would know about it then), but I'm looking for something that fits character concept and is more of an 'oh crud!' last ditch effort, hence "How to Build?". "Impossible, it doesn't work like that in the Hero world, avoid that like the plague" is something I'm fine with, but not yet convinced.

[Christopher]

Re: AoE Damage Sink defensive power

 

My intent is to reduce damage done... to the character' date=' his allies, enemies, priceless ming vases, small furry squirrels, and even mimes.[/quote']

- The most common way is simply barrier/forcefield. Even if the attack goes through, everything behind get's the barriers defenses.

- Surpess or Drain, Area of Effect with the "affects every attack hitting inside" would work. You could apply a limitation that the "AP reduced icnrease the area affeceted" somehow, but I don't know about the rate at wich that should work.

- Area of Effect defense. No reason it can't protect ming vases and mimes as well, as long as it protects everything (inlcuding foes) to the same degree.

- Maybe a Triggerd Transform be could working. If the power already has an area of effect attack, a Minor Transform might be enough. Incereasing the AoE advantage by +1/2 is somewhere between teh +1/2 advantage and -1/2 Limitaiton (in this case the power get's weakened by that advantage, not improved). If the power is not AoE already, that I would say that needs a Major Transform. It changes a Non-Aoe into an AoE, wich I regard as "changing the underlying nature" of the attack.

 

A fair assessment and I shouldn't have too much trouble getting my own approval' date=' but I'm looking for something workable in a broader sense. I'm looking for a character that can do amazing things with earth and stone but not much to people (say turning them into lightning rods) and looking for input on a questionable topic. The AoEs could certainly be drained beforehand with the fx of passing the additional damage harmlessly into the earth (of course the bomber would know about it then), but I'm looking for something that fits character concept and is more of an 'oh crud!' last ditch effort, hence "How to Build?". "Impossible, it doesn't work like that in the Hero world, avoid that like the plague" is something I'm fine with, but not yet convinced.[/quote']

The problem is that your power-sfx tries to avoid a rule/physical interaction that simply doesn't exists in this gameworld. That there is no ground to reflect has no meaning, as the world doesn't require there to be ground "to reflect" to do full damage. So if there is ground or not, the limited physics simulation of the Hero Rules simply does not care.

 

If it is a last ditch effort, it usually means "Power Skill Roll to make the power up on the fly".

[Sidetrack]

Re: AoE Damage Sink defensive power

 

- The most common way is simply barrier/forcefield. Even if the attack goes through' date=' everything behind get's the barriers defenses.[/quote']

 

Ahh, now that is probably a more sensible way for me to go as this guy already has a vpp that focuses mostly on barrier. Thank you.

 

- Area of Effect defense. No reason it can't protect ming vases and mimes as well' date=' as long as it protects everything (inlcuding foes) to the same degree.[/quote']

 

Is Usable Nearby functionally Area Effect or would I have to add that advantage as well, never mind that's something I should read up on anyway...

 

 

The problem is that your power-sfx tries to avoid a rule/physical interaction that simply doesn't exists in this gameworld. That there is no ground to reflect has no meaning' date=' as the world doesn't require there to be ground "to reflect" to do full damage. So if there is ground or not, the limited physics simulation of the Hero Rules simply does not care.[/quote']

 

My point of view on that is that it is 'just' an effect, and that real world explosions do actually work like that (close to anyway). My effect could just as well be englobing gumdrops or flocks of iron butterflies descending from the sky to protect everyone and that would be valid. The power is Granted DEF, just like Fireball is really just AoE Blast, or AoE RKA, or AoE Change Environment... but I suppose all the worms and gophers would still have to die so that'd be cruel AND an illusionary wall/ground certainly wouldn't cause the same effect.

 

 

If it is a last ditch effort' date=' it usually means "Power Skill Roll to make the power up on the fly".[/quote']

 

I said last ditch, but meant more Abort and defend

[Christopher]

Re: AoE Damage Sink defensive power

 

Is Usable Nearby functionally Area Effect or would I have to add that advantage as well' date=' never mind that's something I should read up on anyway...[/quote']

They both a different.

AoE affects everyonwe, friend and foe alike.

Usable by Nearby however has the "full seletiveness".

 

I would use AoE whenever the enemy can "hitchhike" on the effect.

[Sean Waters]

Re: AoE Damage Sink defensive power

 

So you are after an effect that halves (or reduces, at least) AoE damage and that works by some sort of energy desolidification of the ground which then acts as a damage sink, somehow? I think you need an adjustment power, don't you? It is really quite awkward giving defences to an area, or everything in an area because you do not know how many things you will need to protect. So, I'm thinking something like a suppress field. The aborting is an issue, I suppose.

 

How about Dispel? Dispel can be aborted to IIRC. Put a limitation on the dispel that, if it is successful, then the attack does half normal damage (-1/4 or -1/2 at most: half damage is normally little or no damage in Hero). The whole 'ground becomes an energy sink' thing is then just SFX.

 

The problem with dispel is the all or nothing nature.

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: AoE Damage Sink defensive power

 

They both a different.

AoE affects everyonwe, friend and foe alike.

Usable by Nearby however has the "full seletiveness".

 

I would use AoE whenever the enemy can "hitchhike" on the effect.

 

I've certainly been tempted to run it that way, but by RAW AOE doesn't really do anything to self only powers. You need to build a non-selective version of Usable on Others if that's the effect you want.

[Christopher]

Re: AoE Damage Sink defensive power

 

I've certainly been tempted to run it that way' date=' but by RAW AOE doesn't really do anything to self only powers. You need to build a non-selective version of Usable on Others if that's the effect you want.[/quote']

I don't think it's an issue with defenses. The GM can already allow defenses to work with AoE (in that case they simpyl are considered no range).

Self Only means "not usable as attack" normally. In this case there are only benefits (except for really wierd builts that need damage for some effect).

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: AoE Damage Sink defensive power

 

I don't think it's an issue with defenses. The GM can already allow defenses to work with AoE (in that case they simpyl are considered no range).

Self Only means "not usable as attack" normally. In this case there are only benefits (except for really wierd builts that need damage for some effect).

 

Like I said, I have no problem running it that way. I was just pointing out that it is a house rule.

[bluesguy]

Re: AoE Damage Sink defensive power

 

So Joe wizard shots his 10d6 6" radius fireball and Simon Earth Guy. Simon Earth Guy uses his power and the earth (this is my imagining) flies up into the area to partially fill the 6" radius of the fireball. The effect on Simon Earth Guy and his friends (all within the 6" radius) is that the amount of damage from the 10d6 is reduced but the three villagers who are 8" away from the center of the fireball are also caught in the fireball.

 

Assuming my understanding is close, I think I would build it as a compound power: The defense could either be Damage Reduction (50% or 75% vs. Energy) or Damage Negation, which would be an area of effect and usable on others. As for the additional AoE I think I would use a naked advantage to model that. How often do players in your campaign run into AoE attacks?

 

Here is what I am imagining happens when this character uses this power is that an attacking area of effect is 'spread out'. The resulting 'spread' reduces the damage but increases the area of effect.

[Sailboat]

Re: AoE Damage Sink defensive power

 

My approach would be to use the specific Suppression Field mechanic described on 6E1 197 (with or without he Standard Effect rule, to your taste). The Suppression Field rules clearly anticipate the issue of an attack originating from outside the area of the Suppress entering the area and being reduced in effectiveness.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: AoE Damage Sink defensive power

 

An AoE Suppress would be my first choice too if you want to have the ground act as an energy sink and drain off some of the attack power. But don't get hung up on the "reduces it by half" bit. That makes a nice sound bite, but to mechanically reproduce that is more trouble than it is worth IMO. Besides that means the character can completely stymie a weak attack, but only blunt the effect of an attack from an ancient dragon, which maintains some balance.